[10] Let's Talk: Affirmative Action feat. Giannina Ong of Mochi Mag

In this special episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews Editor-in-Chief, Giannina Ong following the Affirmative Action Supreme Court decision. We have an open conversation about our reactions, how we can move forward, confronting opposing opinions, and more.

Background:

• You can read the decision re: “Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President and Fellows of Harvard College” ⁠here⁠.
• You can read a timeline of Affirmative Action ⁠here⁠.
• ⁠Wine n’ Chill (a lawyer)’s reaction to the Court’s decision⁠ giving an overview, history, racial analysis, and a brief dive into the Clarence of it all.

 

Things discussed in this episode:

• ⁠Becky with the Bad Grades aka Abigail Fisher⁠
• ⁠“The Racial Triangulation of Asian Americans”⁠
• ⁠Harvard legacy admissions statistic from the National Bureau of Economic Research⁠
• Berkley study on effects of California’s Affirmative Action ban, ⁠“Affirmative Action, Mismatch, and Economic Mobility After California’s Proposition 209”⁠
• NPR article synthesizing study, ⁠“Here’s what happened when affirmative action ended at California public colleges”⁠
• 53% of Asian Americans who have heard of Affirmative Action think it’s a good thing ⁠Source: Pew Research⁠
• ⁠Chinese for Affirmative Action⁠
• ⁠Yuri Kochiyama⁠
• ⁠Grace Lee Boggs⁠
• History on Asian American work toward Affirmative Action, ⁠“Asian Americans Helped Build Affirmative Action. What Happened?”⁠
• 89.6% of anti-Asian incidents in 2020 were perpetrated by white individuals ⁠Source: Virulent Hate project⁠

 

Guest

This episode’s guest is Giannina Ong from Mochi Mag! You can find her here:

• Mochi Mag – ⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠
• Giannina – ⁠Instagram⁠

 

Find us online:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Patreon⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

 

Credits:

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia ⁠Personal Twitter⁠ | ⁠Personal Instagram⁠ | ⁠Personal Threads⁠ | ⁠Personal Site⁠

 

About Culture by Culture:

Culture by Culture is a multidimensional podcast exploration into Black and Asian pop-cultural ties. Part sociology, history, and pop-culture podcast, it covers everything from deep-dives into our favorite gateway media, interviews with experts to help guide us through our historical and current cultural connections, and conversations with fellow nerds digging into our cultural identities and our pop-cultural interests. Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

Delia 

Hey there, welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi dimensional exploration of Black and Asian pop cultural ties. I’m your host, Delia. And today is a bit of a different episode. A week ago today actually, at the time of recording, the Supreme Court ruled on the Students for Fair Admissions Inc versus Harvard case effectively overturning Affirmative Action. So, there have been a lot of conversations online on my socials just in general that I’m seeing and I wanted to hold space for it here on the pod and have a conversation. Let’s just talk about it. So joining me to talk about this issue is, you know her and loved her from last week, editor in chief of Mochi Mag, Giannina Ong.

 

Giannina 

Hi, everybody!

 

Delia 

Hi, Giannina. Welcome back.

 

Giannina 

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to talk about this topic. And I think that it’s not what we wanted. But we did see signs, right? We knew this was gonna happen. But I think it’s really important, I think, especially for me as an Asian American that we talk about it.

 

Delia 

Yeah, it’s a hard conversation. I wasn’t necessarily planning on having a space in the podcast. I’m like, “We just finished the coalition series. I want to go back to pop culture.” I think because sometimes the answer to hard things is having a spot where you get the you know, the lightness and you can have fun again. However, even on my socials, (I don’t know what y’all noticed at Mochi) I’ve noticed just a lot of emotions coming out in different ways (some not productive, some productive) just from people that follow me listeners, people who are stumbling onto my stuff. And I’m like, “Okay, this is sitting heavy with a lot of people.” So I feel like, it’s good to just have the conversation, you know? But for starters, I will say that Affirmative Action is not the only thing they turned over last week. So in general, I just want to do a quick vibe check. How are you doing?

 

Giannina 

Oh, yeah, last week was a heavy week. And then it’s interesting to go from last week straight into, you know, Independence Day and try not to know what that, what does that mean for our country? What does that mean to be a citizen of this country? And yeah, I think, again, I myself personally was not surprised, right, we knew that they would do what they would do. But it’s still saddening to see how divisive these things are, and how harmful these things are anything, especially bringing it back to Affirmative Action, you know, how Asian Americans are playing a part in that. And I think that that is especially painful.

 

Delia 

Yeah, I also am not surprised in the least. I remember when it started with Becky with the Bad Grades. If y’all remember her, she was the one that didn’t get into University of Texas. I was going into college at that time in Texas. So I remember seeing this like, “Is this really going to turn into something?” And the longer it went as, Edward Blum, who is the plaintiff in this case, let’s all remember, kept pushing his issue further, and it went up and went up, I was just like, “Oh, this is going to happen.”

 

Giannina 

Who is a white man. Let’s be clear.

 

Delia 

A white man. He is a white man. Let’s be clear. So yeah, I’m disappointed, not surprised. I’m not a big Independence Day, celebrate. Or I think of it as Cookout Day, it’s just a day to get out, eat some food, watch some fireworks. The independence of it all has always been silly. But I digress. When the decision came down, though, I just knew. /You know that feeling in your stomach? Your stomach kind of drops. What concern me more than the actual ramifications of what’s going to happen in college, like of course, that’s important… just knowing the division, it’s going to sow between our communities. It’s so hard to strive for solidarity in the face of white supremacy. It’s hard work, because I get where the emotionality comes from. And when you have people who are like, “Well, Asians shouldn’t be siding with a white man,” or you have Asian people who are like, “Well, Black people should stop committing hate crimes against us[sic],” like it’s misguided. But I understand where the core emotionality is coming from. Because it’s coming from, in my opinion, that feeling of helplessness in the face of oppression, you know? You’re trying to find control by having a bad thing to blame.

 

Giannina 

Yeah.

 

Delia 

And I just knew, it’s gonna get worse because this feels real bad.

 

Giannina 

Yeah, it does feel really bad. And I think that, you know, there are racial scholars who focus on this idea of racial triangulation, right? And how, you know, the Asian Americans are being used as a wedge for white supremacy. And I think that when you explain it to maybe your immigrant parents are, you know, other, you know, more new Asian American. Right, like, I think they don’t understand that. I think that that’s the issue is that they don’t understand that as much as we strive towards white ideals, which we talked about last time a little bit, you know, we’re still going to be set as outcast, right? Even though we might feel like we’re getting closer to this, like, normal or quote, unquote, “the American Dream” that we’re being sold. We’re in the process ostracizing and harming, you know, other people of color, particularly black folks and indigenous folks, right? Because they actually have the lowest rates of admissions. And I think the issue there is that really when Brown v Board of Education was passed. There was no efforts to integrate, right? They said, you know, “separate but equal is not actually equal.” But they didn’t say, “Hey, let’s work to integrate.” And I think that’s what Asian Americans who don’t understand American history, not the way it’s written in the books, because we know right now the books are kind of off, it’s like, I think that they don’t understand that, you know, what was sold as the American Dream, as like a melting pot? It never actually came to fruition. We’re still very much segregated. And it’s like an illusion of equality when what we need to move towards is equity. And that’s what Affirmative Action policies were doing for a long time.

 

Delia 

Yeah, I think for people who might not know, even some Black people who maybe weren’t from the south, like their generations removed from the south, or, you know, Asian American immigrants, or just people who suffered under the hands of our whitewashed public schooling system… My dad is from Texas. He was on my first episode. If you’ve listened, you’ll kind of know his background. But, like, he integrated his high school. He was part of that movement, and it was very much, “We’re just gonna drop them in and wipe our hands of it.” And then very quickly after that those same high schools are no longer the quote unquote, “white” high schools, because white flight happens, and they don’t put any more resources into those schools. And that’s the background people are coming from when they’re going to college. And so it’s not equal, because all the resources leave. And does the government do anything about that? No, they’re like, “Oh, well, we tried. We integrated.” quote, unquote. And that’s that not to mention the trauma that comes from that. That’s a whole separate issue also, as well. So then you’re applying to these schools and that’s what affirmative action has always been trying to correct for. It’s never been a quota system. You know, there’s talks about like whether or not that was going to be effective, but it’s not been a quota system. It’s not been a way for unqualified students to then qualify for these schools. Even if somebody got in through Affirmative Action. But there’s not really a way to measure it in that way. But even if you found a Black student who got it via Affirmative Action, they’re qualified to be there. What affirmative action does, is make sure that Black students, minority students who are qualified are not overlooked, which the systems we currently have do overlook these students on purpose.

 

Giannina 

Yeah. And I think that’s the thing is like, you would never be able to point out the student that got admitted through Affirmative Action, because it is not a quota system, right? Like the Supreme Court had ruled against the quota system in like the 70s, right? Like, a few years after, you know, everybody was like, “We’re gonna start to do Affirmative Action policies immediately.” They really don’t do quotas, right? Like, that’s unconstitutional. And it’s like such a small portion of the application that other policies that are like white affirmative action still get, you know, used and still create an unequal playing field, right? Like whether you’re a legacy student, whether you’re a child of somebody who is a big donor of the school, whether you’re the child of a faculty member, right, I think that, you know, those are all white affirmative action policies that no one is going after, because they continue the status quo of making sure that these are predominantly white institutions.

 

Delia 

Yeah, I think the stat, I will fact check myself and put it in the show notes, but I think the stat is that at Harvard, I think 45% are in some form legacy admissions, and of those 75% of them would not be qualified without the legacy admission process. Like that’s a high number.

 

Delia 

*drum beats* Editing Delia here. I just wanted to go on the record and correct the stat I cited because it wasn’t completely correct. It was worse. I said that 45% of students admitted to Harvard are ALDCs, or basically athletes, legacy admits, Dean’s List, children of faculty. That was incorrect. It’s actually 43% of white admits are ALDC. The stat comes from the National Bureau of Economic Research and a paper they did back in 2019. They also found among admits who are African American, Asian American and Hispanic, the share is less than 16% each of ALDC admits. So a bit worse of a stat than we were originally saying, actually. They did all of this by taking publicly available documents that were presented at trial. So there you go. *drum beats*

 

Giannina 

Oof

 

Delia 

And even if I’m like kind of fudging on the numbers, I know that it’s close, like it is close to that number. It is a staggering amount. And so nobody’s taking issue with that. And it would be hard to, you know, take to the Supreme Court because it’s hard to say literally, it is white affirmative action, even though in practice, that’s what it is. If for years, these schools have been predominantly white, and then you’re saying “Oh, well, you know, your kids can come here. People who are, you know, related to faculty can come here.” If these are historically white, then who are getting the benefits of these legacy admits? White people. But nobody has a problem with that and it’s just makes me really sad, too. Like I understand people, other minorities, reacted in anger knowing that there are Asian Americans who stood by this, who let themselves be used by the system to be part of this case. Again, Asian Americans are not the plaintiff,

 

Giannina 

But no Asian Americans testified. So…

 

Delia 

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Delia 

To be clear.

 

Giannina 

Yes.

 

Giannina 

To be clear.

 

Delia 

Yeah. But I can understand reacting in anger that there are Asian Americans who are like, “Yeah, Black people are keeping us from being able to get spots at these Ivy League’s.” But for me, I just usually feel sad, because I know that these people are just being taken advantage of by the system. Like that’s my honest reaction emotionally.

 

Giannina 

Yeah, I think it’s disappointing as well, for me to know that these like myths around admissions are circulating within Asian American communities. But also, not only just within Asian American communities. You’ll have college counselors that will tell you don’t check the Asian box on applications, right, as if it’s like a true thing. And that that’s not true, right?  Like, I think that the fact that there are people who are supposed to be experts in this telling Asian Americans “Don’t check to the Asian box,” continues to perpetrate this issue. And then they, like, say things like Asian Americans have to score higher than other students to get in. And that’s actually like, not the reality in that first of all. Like the SAT is rooted in racism, developed by a eugenicist, right?

 

Delia 

I was about to say, let’s talk about eugenics.

 

Giannina 

Because you know, and then more than that, for me, in California, they haven’t been allowed to do Affirmative Action policies at the state schools are the UCs, the University of Californias, because it was banned in the 90s. So they’re saying that, “Oh, you know, more Asian Americans will get in.” But if you look at it, in California, the population of Filipinos is around a quarter, right? Like, there’s a quarter of all Asian Americans, are  Filipino. But only 11%, I think, is like the admission rate to the UC system, right? Whereas I think another quarter of the Asian American population in California is Chinese, you know, but they are 45% of the admit. So it’s like, which Asian Americans are you talking about? Right? Like, I don’t think it’s really fair to say like all Asian Americans. It’s like, very specific.

 

Delia 

And statistically, that aligns with how those groups feel about Affirmative Action.

 

Giannina 

Mhmm

 

Delia 

The Pew Research Center, released, I think last month, an updated (for the data that we had) study about, like how Asian Americans feel about Affirmative Action, or groups in general. But you can look at the Asian American stats and Chinese Americans, by far out of the Asian American groups polled, they like Affirmative Action the least. So I think that’s interesting. It’s like, if you play by white supremacy rules, you did get better returns. And that’s kind of the thing that’s kind of hard, I think, to parse also is knowing that, like, you do get better returns, if you do play by white supremacy is rules. However, it’s having to pull yourself out of that and understand that you could play by the rules, but you will never be seen as equal. You will never achieve equality. The carrot dangling in front of you, you will never get.

 

Giannina 

And, you’re hurting your own people. Because at the end of the day, right, like, I think that this is one thing that happens, is like Asians can usually tell each other apart. Like, “Oh, you look Chinese,” or “You look like this.” But like, anybody else probably can’t tell us apart, right? So you technically, you’re just hurting people who are just like you. You know, you’re just hurting, you know, your own group of people here in the United States. And I think that that’s really sad to not see that there’s power in collectivity, and that there’s power in working together. And that, you know, just because you are able to climb the ladder, and then you’re gonna, like, toss it down afterwards, because you’re like, “No one else should get the opportunities I got, because I work for it.” That doesn’t make sense. And that’s not really the kind of American dream that I think I would want to believe in. And that I hope that, you know, people who come to the United States for, quote, unquote, “a better future,: you know, would participate in.

 

Delia 

And I think we see something similar in the Black community with Black capitalists, which this podcast is not about. But there’s a similar thing where you’ll see Black people get really rich and really successful, and “pull themselves up by their bootstraps,” if you will, and then again, toss the ladder down and kind of like, wag their finger at other Black people who are struggling, not recognizing the luck and privilege that they had along the way to get themselves out of those circumstances. Because the American Dream is based on meritocracy, which is a lie. It’s a lie that, you know, they’ve told us. It makes it seem like, “Oh, the people who are in power deserve this. They’ve earned this.” Like that’s the lie of the American dream and capitalism in general.

 

Delia 

So, all of that said, I do want to cover how maybe we personally parse through our feelings, because, again, I do think there’s validity in the feelings. I think if you feel angry hearing this decision, I think that’s valid. I think if you feel sad, that’s valid. Disappointed? That’s valid. But what do we do with those emotions? Because again, like I said, I’ve seen online a lot of just vitriol and anger. Not always. But this whole time granted, you know I’ve only been doing this for two months, officially, I’ve not this whole time had to delete comments or block people. But I’ve had to do that this week on both sides. Because people are just in their emotions. But I think if I want to be as charitable as I can be, I think they’re just not processing them, or directing that anger and that hurt in ways that I don’t think are productive.

 

Giannina 

And that’s the whole point of them doing this to us, right? Is that they want us to spin in circles rather than, you know, moving forward and continuing the progress that we’ve been making, right? Like, I think that that’s the whole point.

 

Delia 

Exactly. Like, I, when I see that I’m like, you’re just letting them win. I’m not saying you’re wrong to be angry. There’s anger to be had. But who are we angry at? Why? What’s more productive way to move forward? For me, I’ll say like, you know, again, I feel sad. But sadness, I find can be a very isolating feeling and can make you really just want to stop or ignore.

 

Giannina 

Yeah, kind of paralyzing like

 

Delia 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I’ve tried to really purposefully engage and be, you know, mindful of like, “Okay, I’m going to go and find the Asian Americans who are speaking on this issue, to ground myself in reality.” Because the reality is that most Asian Americans who know about Affirmative Action, support Affirmative Action, and that can help me feel like “Okay, there’s hope. Not everybody’s being taken in by the lie of white supremacy,” like, “Wwhite supremacy is not winning, necessarily.”  It’s a battle that they’ve won, not the war, you know?

 

Giannina 

Yeah. I think for me, I’ve been feeling tired, you know? But at the same time, I don’t want to be defensive, because I think that there are Asian Americans who do believe these things, and I want to take accountability for that, right? Like, those are my people. I’m not going to say, “Oh, I’m not like them,” right? Those are my people. And they could be better, they could do better, right? Like you said, I think like the surveys, different surveys come up with different numbers, but one said, like 53% of Asian Americans, you know, support it. And there are literally groups like Chinese for Affirmative Action, you know, that are working towards this. I don’t think it’s fair to necessarily be like, “Oh, this faction of the Asian population we shouldn’t work with or deal with anymore. They’re on the wrong side of this.” I think it’s again, like embracing us as a coalition and saying, “Hey, you know, I know you feel differently. And I understand that this really matters to you.” Because without a college degree, unfortunately, in the United States, it’s very difficult to get by. And for lots of new immigrants, that’s why they came here so that their children could go to a university that would allow them to sit chair, one of the like, three jobs that they wanted lawyer, doctor, you know. Like those ones. It’s like, I get it. But I think that there’s other things in life besides going to school. There’s other things in life, besides going to an Ivy. Which I had mentioned before.

 

Delia 

Yeah, you did.

 

Giannina 

Yeah. I think that even though I’m tired, that’s where I’m putting my energy towards. Talking to other Asian Americans about the myths and like, what are we perpetrating? Right? Because even if it’s not at the Ivys, what does that mean, if the UC system like state schools are, you know, not able to look at race? Right? Like, I think it’s like to even be conscious of it, right? How will we end up presenting ourselves? How will we end up teaching our kids to be to other kids and like, how they want to be as adults. And in that that’s the ramifications are so much greater. And I think it’s something that we need to have deep conversations about. I think there’s a lot of underlying issues that each minority community faces that we also don’t realize the other community is facing, if that makes sense.

 

Delia 

I don’t know that the general American populace understands why Asian Americans push Ivy so hard and push their kids so hard. They don’t have that context. I think also part of it is… not talking at each other, but like going into these spaces and listening not as like intruding, but like, you know, there are content creators who talk about these things. And kind of just learning where everybody’s coming from. And on the other side, learning why Black people are angry. Because I’ve also seen a lot of defensiveness. Again, I also understand it. I would feel defensive to a bunch of people are pointing at me and saying, “Oh, it’s your fault.” I understand where that instinct comes from. But I think if we can work past that, and listen to each other, I think there’s a lot of power in that and can again, ground you because those conversations will be happening outside of the structure of white supremacy. We’re talking about triangulation. Like trying to as much as we can remove ourselves from that framework and have conversations that exists outside of that, and that are working towards something outside of that. I think is very powerful and very helpful. And I think a very fulfilling way to direct your energy.

 

Delia 

Because I don’t know. I find it so validating when I hear stories from other minorities, not even just Asian Americans, but like other minorities, people from different marginalizations. And even though their story is not the same, the context isn’t the same , the particular ways are not oppressed the same. I can see myself in the stories of like how American white supremacy and these capitalist structures oppress these people. And I’m like, “Oh, there’s connection there.” And that I always find gives me energy to do the work and to form those connections.

 

Giannina 

Yeah. And I think even escaping the… well not even, like, I don’t think you can fully escape, you know, white supremacy. But I think, like you said, having conversations, even like the one we’re having now, does disrupt and dismantle a little bit the racial triangulation that is separating us. And that is making it hard for us to work together in coalition and to even listen to one another. Right? I think that that’s a really huge barrier sometimes is like listening, right? Because there’s not enough trust between our communities, especially with the histories between, you know, Black and Asian folks throughout the United States. But they’re also histories of us working together, you know. So I think that that’s really important to highlight because I think, too often they focus on like the LA riots, and then Koreatown. Too often they focus on things like this. And I know that it’s important that people voice their anger, and that they feel that way. And that’s important, but it’s like, no one really talks about the times that we’ve gotten together and work towards things that were really important, right? Like, I think that Yuri Kochiyama is one of my idols in terms of activism. And she does so much by just opening the door and getting into rooms and just listening, right? She didn’t really push her agenda in any way. She just wanted to know and understand what Malcolm X had to say. And then, you know, Grace Lee Boggs, you know, was really entrenched.

 

Delia 

I stan.

 

Giannina 

Yeah. And I think that, you know, we don’t talk much about the work that they did, because people think, “Oh, the work that they did was that they just stood in solidarity.” But even doing that takes energy takes work, right to be like, “Hey, actually, I’m going to use my power politically, socially, to lift and like help this other movement.” You know? That’s a lot of work.

 

Delia 

And to see, also, the importance of it. And it takes a lot of forward thinking and a lot of like, decentering yourself, and a lot of, you know, sometimes maybe it’s right time, right place. But like the internal work that has to be done to be able to do that if you’ve been brought up in this American society with all its ills floating around in your head. Yeah, that alone takes a lot of work. And again, I stan Grace Lee Boggs, also Yuri Kochiyama. Like, there’s a lot of figures in history that we don’t learn about who did a lot of work. There were Asian Americans who did a lot of work towards Affirmative Action. Like in the history of Affirmative Action’s long, so it’s not any one person. But there are figures you can look to who did their little piece to help because, again, historically, we’ve had these coalition’s and this just solidarity, knowing that when one of us comes up, we all come up. And that’s also been very big in Black activist spaces. We’ve long supported other minorities in their movements. And I like to center that in my narrative around this podcast around the social medias. And it’s not because I know some people might take it as, you know, erasing the bad parts. But I think the bad parts just get so much play. Like we’ve talked about them a lot. And not even productively.

 

Delia 

I would like to talk about a little bit about how we center healing in our movement from here because I do think–

 

Giannina 

That’s what I was gonna say. Yeah. It’s like, we talked about it from a white lens, like, “Oh, like, you see, like white reporters, like reminding us of a time when like, this happened,” or, “You know, remember the LA riots?”

 

Delia 

It’s like, Yeah, I do, thank you.

 

Giannina 

Or like, “Oh, did you see like the Black assailant beat the elderly Asian person?” It’s like, okay, but that’s a very white lens of understanding. Because if you actually looked at the perpetrators who are hurting our elders, it’s mostly white men. Right?

 

Delia 

Yep, statistically. I linked that statistic before in one of the episodes, I’ll do it again in the show notes. Statistically, it is why people perpetrating these hate crimes.

 

Giannina 

Yeah.

 

Delia 

But yeah, it is a white lens that it’s partly for the sensationalism of it all. But also just centering, Black and brown trauma and people of color’s is trauma, and just in general, marginalized folks, because this happens across the board. If you’re marginalized in the community, we love to center trauma as just like fun storytimes in our media, and that’s a white supremacist framework. I think there is a way for us to come together and community to acknowledge the hurt that we’ve committed to one another acknowledge the feelings that we’re feeling and work together towards healing and doing that from a place of virtually starting not anger. Not that anger isn’t valid to feel. But like starting from a place that isn’t about trying to one up each other. We’re not trying to get something from each other. We’re trying to heal together I think is the key.

 

Giannina 

Yeah. Restoration.

 

Delia 

 Do you have any thoughts about engaging in conversations around Affirmative Action specifically? Like if somebody listening is an Asian American immigrant, they’re like, “Yeah, but my parents,” “Yeah, but my aunts and uncles, they feel this way.” and I can give my thoughts as far as being a Black American. If you have aunts and uncles, people in your family, people in your circle, just in general doesn’t have to be family, I guess.

 

Giannina 

Yeah. I think, unfortunately, I think Asian Americans, like you see this with a lot of minorities, right? Like you feel more comfortable around your own racial group. Right? And I think that that kind of creates like a very narrow vision of what is happening to you. Right? I think that for me, I’ve purposely spent a lot of time not only with Asian Americans, but with people of color so that I know, you know, when I think this, or I’m saying this, or I’m going down this route, what does this mean for them? Right? I’m not just imagining in my head. I will say that, you know, I do enjoy surrounding myself by Asian Americans, because they understand the struggle and where I come from. And there’s just certain things about, like you said, like, even if our story isn’t exactly the same, there’s trends, you feel this resonance, like, “Oh, I belong?” And I feel like, yeah, I don’t need to explain these things to you. When we talk about parents, or it’s like, things like that. It’s like, we’re all like, “Oh, yeah.” Those kinds of areas, you know?

 

Delia 

Yeah.

 

Giannina 

In good and bad ways, right? But I think that one thing is to really look around you and think about who is in your circle? Right? Are you mostly living life with white people and your Asian family and friends? It’s like, okay, you’re getting a very tiny understanding of a way that, you know, not only in the United States, like demographics are but the world works. Because in the world, BIPOC folks are the global majority, not the minority, right? We’re only in a weird place here, where we’re minorities here, but we’re the global majority. So I think it’s important that we surround ourselves with, I hate the word diverse, but just other you know, other people of all kinds, right? Not just about race, but also age. And if you’re older, spend time with younger people. If you are a woman, spend time with other people, other genders. You know, if you’re able bodied, spend time with people who are disabled. I think it’s really important that we shape our perspectives based off of you know, what we understand from other people. And you won’t get that unless you’re actively seeking other perspectives.

 

Delia 

And I will say like that process can in and of itself be a lot of work, as someone who is, I’m also Cherokee. And growing up my circle, and my… my reference for understanding what it is to be Cherokee, Native American, indigenous in America, was based on what my family’s opinions were and what my family knew, and their experience, which has been a very specific experience. And then growing up and then starting to interface with other people from other tribes and just– other younger people, too, because a lot of people, my family are just older, they’re the older generation. Like, I’m the youngest. Well, I guess, my little sister’s the youngest. And realizing like, “Oh, our opinions aren’t the same.” And like, what does that mean? Does that mean I’m wrong? Does that mean, I need to adjust? It’s just taking in that different information changes how you see things. But having such a small worldview, I can relate to. Not even feeling like I was wrong, just realizing there’s so much more, even within this experience that I thought I was having.

 

Delia 

As far as talking to, if you’re a Black listener, and you’re like, “Okay, but how do I talk to my aunties and uncles and whoever who might feel angry at Asian Americans and stuff like that?” I will say that, in my experience, I think sometimes it’s not about changing their mind in the moment. I think this is kind of applicable, even outside of this situation. What I found in having these conversations. Changing their mind is never my goal. It’s to plant the seeds. And you keep tending to that crop, if you will, to the seeds that you sowed. And maybe you don’t even have time to tend to it. But I have seen having conversations that are kind of tough, but doing it from a place of love, first and foremost. And saying, like, “I understand how you’re feeling, but here are the facts.” You know, I have– I was about to say I have Asian American friends– but not like *laughs* Like, if you’ve done the work of listening, you’ve been in these spaces, “and this is what they’re saying. This is how they feel,” and sharing that and sharing the statistics, whatever will get through to them. But again, starting from a place of love, even if in that moment, they’re like, “Yeah, whatever, I don’t care.” Like, I found even in those situations, sometimes months later, sometimes years later, I’ll have a family member, this happened to me multiple times, who have come up to me and been like, “You know what? You know why I changed my mind on this. I remember had this conversation with you back when and that’s what made me start thinking like, ‘Ah, maybe not.'” And so I think don’t go in with the goal of changing someone’s mind go in with the goal of correcting them with love and seeing where that goes. And planting that seed is what I’ve seen work best within my own communities.

 

Giannina 

I absolutely, you know, agree with that. Because I think even for myself, it took time, right? Like I like to say, Oh, I’ve always been like an activist mindset. Yes, I have always been towards an activist mindset, which means like, I’m a little more open minded, right? I was willing to hear things, you know, but honestly, when I think about my own trajectory into racial consciousness, and you know, what I want to see, I think that, as a high schooler I was very sheltered, you know? And I had certain beliefs. And it takes time to change those. You don’t just have one conversation with somebody and you’re like, “Yeah, you know, I shouldn’t be anti-Black anymore.” Like, it’s like, you go, “Wait, I’m being anti-Black? I didn’t know that.” Like, you don’t even know what that word means when you like, first find out that they’re saying these things, right? It’s like, okay, it really takes time for you to be like, “Okay, so, you’re telling me these things? You know, what do you want me to do?” You know, it’s like a slow process. And I think that being patient with, especially the people you love, you know, I think it’s really important. But I think when you interface with anyone who has a view, that is opposing, I think it’s important to see them as a human being see them as somebody that, you know, you don’t want better or worse for them, right? You just want, you know, what every human being in this world deserves. And, you know, just when you’re talking to them, I think that that’s, you know, what you should bring to the table. It’s not about competing with one another. Like, you said like, I think that that’s really important.

 

Delia 

Yeah, I like that, that, “competing with each other.” Because even comes down to like the mental gymnastics we do sometimes with each other, especially when you feel like you’re morally you have the high ground, if you will, in your in these conversations with your bigoted Uncle– this is going beyond Affirmative Action. I’m just saying in general– Like, you know, you have the moral high ground, it’s easy to get really heated and angry. And then it becomes this war of words, and I’ve not found success that route. I totally get if you do get emotional in these conversations. It’s hard. It does take practice. It’s taken a lot of practice on my part to be able to approach these conversations and be like, calm and like, “Okay, why do you think that? I understand,” and it takes a lot of practice, I will say. You can get it wrong a few times. But if you keep practicing it, I think we do a lot of good to the the broader community in solidarity when we’re able to do that. Because I have so many family members who are more racially conscious, who are more open to LGBTQIA ideas, because of the work of the younger generation, like me, my sister and my cousins, who have had these patient conversations. And I think that’s why we often call on, you know, white people like talk to your white family members, because they’re the racist ones. We say that, but it’s true, because a lot of work is done in those interpersonal one on one conversations, I think.

 

Giannina 

Yeah. And I think also, you know, not falling for the trap among BIPOC folks, with the oppression Olympics. Like, “Oh, we have it worse,” or, you know, like, I think that that’s a dangerous trap, right. And that’s where, you know, feelings that are not useful, you know, show up. Like, I think that anger is definitely a useful feeling, right? It tells you something is wrong, right? It tells you that there’s something that you need to work through, or that something is injustice in the world. But I think sometimes when we fall into these traps of like, “Oh, I have it worse off,” you bring up these feelings of trauma, and you’re directing it towards the wrong person or the wrong group of people. And that’s where it’s like, “Oh, they got you,” you know. It’s like, don’t do that.

 

Delia 

That’s such a good way to put it. It really is these feelings of trauma that bubble up. And it’s happens to everybody. Like I’m in an interracial relationship. And we’re very good about talking about our issues, and not one upping each other. But we’ve had had moments just here and there where it has happened, because it’s easy to trigger. Because it is trauma that we experience at the hands of these oppressive forces, right? And having to check that and be like, “Oh, you know what? That’s not what this is about. I’m sorry.” Like, “Let me walk that back.”

 

Delia 

 Before we wrap up. Is there anything you wish we had more time for? I know, it was a quick conversation.

 

Giannina 

I think that the one thing I would say is that there’s so many forces of play. Again, not being defensive of Asian Americans who feel like Affirmative Action is unfair. I think that, you know, it’s important that they gain a greater worldview. But I think that there’s so many systems at play, right? There’s like, the testing industrial complex, you know? Which earns, I think a billion dollars a year now, which is insane, right? There is the idea that these predominantly white institutions are trying to protect themselves are trying to keep themselves predominantly white, right? Like, they don’t actually want to reflect the diversity in the United States. You know, they just want to have a little bit of it, right? So maybe it’s like, even as disenfranchising from those. And I know that, you know, a lot of Black people that I know are now being like, “Yeah, that HBCU is my number one choice.” And I’m like, “Yes! Good for you,” you know? I love to have for them because you get to a place and when you’re surrounded by your people, you know, maybe you can just learn and excel more freely without feeling like, “Oh, gonna walk into some racist encounter because I corrected my teacher,” you know? Like, I think that certain things that I think we can think about more, is that there’s just so many systems at play, right? I think, yes. What happened last week with SCOTUS was many things, but it’s not like a giant tower fell. It’s like those were a series of dominoes that we all saw happening. And we all knew what was coming and there were so many things involved, so I don’t think it’s fair to just be like, “Ooh, Affirmative Action. Now we’re in this terrible place.” It’s like the pendulum swings. And right now we’re swinging towards this more racially, quote unquote “blind,” you know? And being racially blind is actually not a good thing, because then you don’t see the diversity among us, you don’t get to celebrate the diversity among us. And I think that that’s really important. And I think we all try to be quote, unquote, “normal,” i.e. white, we lose out on so much of ourselves. And I think our histories and our culture and our traditions, everything we bring with us makes us who we are. And it’s colorful, and it’s amazing.

 

Delia 

Yeah, I think that for people really feeling like this is like you said, a big tower fell, it feels that way. But this is also why it’s important to get involved at the local level, because like you said, it is a series of dominoes that started very small and then build up to something big. So yes, interpersonal conversations, but politically speaking, getting involved in your local politics, supporting your local libraries. We talked about, you know, things in Florida–

 

Giannina 

Like know what your politician stands for, right? Like, we’re just like, “Oh, I’m just gonna vote for the Democrat.” “Mmm, okay.” Like actually, no.

 

Delia 

And if they haven’t said ask them.

 

Giannina 

Yeah.

 

Delia 

You can always ask them. Make them speak to it. Call your Senators. Be in contact. Like these things are so important work, as far as making sure that these big historical moments or things that feel like big historical moments are less likely to happen. Of course, we are fighting a war, if you will. So it’s about the long game. So these things will still happen. But it takes all of us on the ground, doing little pieces that we can.

 

Delia 

However, with that said, the one thing I wanted to add was that it is also valid, to be overwhelmed and need to disengage. Like I want us all to honor, where we are emotionally and be able to know when it’s time to rest and to just disengage. Maybe it’s like, “Okay, I don’t have the energy to work through these emotions right now. I don’t have the energy to engage with this. It’s affecting my day to day life too negatively. I need to focus and be here for my kids. I need to focus on my job. We all exist in the system of capitalism, I’ve got to perform.” I think it’s totally valid to just recognize in yourself like, “You know, I can’t even engage with this in a thoughtful way that this situation need or that is helpful to me.” And just being like, “You know what? I’m going to rest.” I think that’s super valid.

 

Giannina 

Yes. Yes.

 

Delia 

I wouldn’t have had this conversation if I felt like I don’t have the capacity for it. And I don’t think Giannina would, either, hopefully. Hopefully, she doesn’t feel like I bullied her.

 

Giannina 

No! Of course, not.

 

Delia 

Yeah, honor that in yourself. That is also important. Because again, it is the long game. It’s not about these short sprints. It’s about endurance. So take the breaks and take the time that you need. And with that said, I think that’s all we have for you today. Thank you so much, Giannina for making time again.

 

Giannina 

Thank you, you know, I think it’s just really important to have these conversations and like, I know it’s not just going to be one person but if even one person listening to this conversation and thought, “Hey, you know, I have questions about my own perceptions.” That would be amazing. Anything that that’s you know, for those who have the energy and capacity to do that, that’s exactly what we need to do.

 

Delia 

I so agree, I think if even one mind just kind of shifted as a success to me. But before we go go ahead and tell the good folks– I’m sure they listened to the last episode. Right, everyone? You listened to the last episode? But just to case, go ahead and tell the people where to find you.

 

Giannina 

Yeah! Listen to the last episode if you want to learn more about me and Mochi Magazine and Sarah who is also a guest on that episode. But you can find us at mochimag.com. And then you can find us on Instagram mostly @mochimagofficial. And you can find me at @thisisgiannina, if you want to follow me. I don’t know. I post about my child and being a mom a lot–

 

Delia 

Who’s very cute, I saw.

 

Giannina 

–from my activist consciousness lens. So if you want that you can get that there.

 

Delia 

Great. Thank you all so much for listening and engaging so thoughtfully in this conversation. If you have any questions or want to know more, I said it before, but I am including a lot of resources that I found useful in the show notes and any fact checking. I know I said some fact that I said I was gonna fact check. I will. It’ll be in the show notes. You can also drop your questions on @culturexpodcast if it’s question for Giannina or me we’ll get them where they need to go. Or for their questions we don’t know the answers to. I definitely don’t have all the answers but in community we can find the answers. You know, that’s the beautiful thing. If you’re like “Okay, yeah, but I would like some lightness next week,” we are back on that pop cultural intersection wave. So stay tuned. Watch this space. And until next time, keep it chill and keep it nerdy!