[5] Language Learning and Cultural Navigation w/ Sarah F. Phillips, PhD feat. Sarah K. Phillips, PhD

In this episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews neurolinguist, Sarah F. Phillips, PhD. We discuss language learning in the age of pop-culture phenomena, growing up Blasian and bilingual, barriers to language learning for Black folks, the importance of cultural understanding, and advice for folks starting their language learning journeys. What languages are you learning or do you want to learn?

 

Guest:

This episode’s guest, is Sarah F. Phillips, PhD! You can find her in these places:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

 

Find us online:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Patreon⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

 

Credits:

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia ⁠Personal Site⁠ | ⁠Personal Instagram⁠ | ⁠Personal Threads⁠ | ⁠Personal Twitter⁠

 

About Culture by Culture:

Culture by Culture is a multidimensional podcast exploration into Black and Asian pop-cultural ties. Part sociology, history, and pop-culture podcast, it covers everything from deep-dives into our favorite gateway media, interviews with experts to help guide us through our historical and current cultural connections, and conversations with fellow nerds digging into our cultural identities and our pop-cultural interests.

Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

1
00:00:00,000 –> 00:00:04,560
Hey there, welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi-dimensional exploration of Black and

2
00:00:04,560 –> 00:00:06,440
Asian pop cultural ties.

3
00:00:06,440 –> 00:00:11,480
I’m your language learning host, Delia, and today I’m joined by neurolinguist Dr. Sarah

4
00:00:11,480 –> 00:00:12,480
Phillips.

5
00:00:12,480 –> 00:00:13,480
Hi, Sarah.

6
00:00:13,480 –> 00:00:14,960
Hello, how are you?

7
00:00:14,960 –> 00:00:15,960
I’m very good.

8
00:00:15,960 –> 00:00:17,560
I’m very excited to have you on.

9
00:00:17,560 –> 00:00:19,200
Well, thanks for having me.

10
00:00:19,200 –> 00:00:20,880
Tell the folks a little bit about yourself.

11
00:00:20,880 –> 00:00:22,440
I know you’re a neurolinguist.

12
00:00:22,440 –> 00:00:26,040
Maybe you can say what is neurolinguistics for the folks out there?

13
00:00:26,040 –> 00:00:27,040
Sure.

14
00:00:27,040 –> 00:00:31,400
So, I am a neurolinguist, which is in essence someone who is interested in studying how

15
00:00:31,400 –> 00:00:34,120
our brains support language functions.

16
00:00:34,120 –> 00:00:38,960
So what parts of the brain are responsible for doing things like comprehending language,

17
00:00:38,960 –> 00:00:45,400
producing language, and how the brain as a system really works to support that, especially

18
00:00:45,400 –> 00:00:50,000
when you’re doing things normally and in healthy scenarios.

19
00:00:50,000 –> 00:00:52,600
But I also do research that has clinical implications.

20
00:00:52,600 –> 00:00:58,040
So for people who suffer from things like aphasia or some kind of processing deficit,

21
00:00:58,040 –> 00:01:02,880
people who also suffer from specific language impairments or maybe even dyslexia, there

22
00:01:02,880 –> 00:01:08,800
are a lot of avenues that my research can tie into in people’s quality of life day to

23
00:01:08,800 –> 00:01:09,800
day.

24
00:01:09,800 –> 00:01:14,560
But my primary focus is to understand the typical healthy brain and how the typical

25
00:01:14,560 –> 00:01:16,640
healthy brain supports language.

26
00:01:16,640 –> 00:01:19,000
That is so fascinating.

27
00:01:19,000 –> 00:01:25,480
So my listeners know basically how this came to be was Sarah followed culture by culture.

28
00:01:25,480 –> 00:01:26,560
And I love languages.

29
00:01:26,560 –> 00:01:28,960
I love the idea of the study of language.

30
00:01:28,960 –> 00:01:33,860
I’m not a linguist to be clear, but I just have always found them very fascinating.

31
00:01:33,860 –> 00:01:36,920
And so I saw that she was a neurolinguist.

32
00:01:36,920 –> 00:01:38,720
I immediately went into her DMs.

33
00:01:38,720 –> 00:01:42,160
I feel like I probably jump scared her because it was immediate.

34
00:01:42,160 –> 00:01:45,120
Like as soon as the notification came there, I was like, oh my gosh.

35
00:01:45,120 –> 00:01:46,120
It was pretty quick.

36
00:01:46,120 –> 00:01:47,120
I’m not going to lie.

37
00:01:47,120 –> 00:01:50,880
And it’s funny too, because I was like, you know, we’ve all done the thing where it’s

38
00:01:50,880 –> 00:01:53,120
like late in the evening, we’re starting to wind down.

39
00:01:53,120 –> 00:01:56,980
Even though all the best advice tells you like, don’t be on your phone right before

40
00:01:56,980 –> 00:01:57,980
you go to bed.

41
00:01:57,980 –> 00:02:00,680
I was definitely on my phone while getting ready to go to bed.

42
00:02:00,680 –> 00:02:02,040
And I’m scrolling and I’m scrolling.

43
00:02:02,040 –> 00:02:07,040
And I think you had a post about black and Asian relationships.

44
00:02:07,040 –> 00:02:09,400
And I think this was, I think it was Malcolm X.

45
00:02:09,400 –> 00:02:10,760
Yes, and Yuri.

46
00:02:10,760 –> 00:02:12,640
And I was just like, oh, this is so cool.

47
00:02:12,640 –> 00:02:16,540
Like I know that this is a thing, but I didn’t know the depths of it.

48
00:02:16,540 –> 00:02:18,120
And it was so well explained.

49
00:02:18,120 –> 00:02:19,120
And so I liked it.

50
00:02:19,120 –> 00:02:21,000
I was like, this is cool.

51
00:02:21,000 –> 00:02:22,000
I like this kind of content.

52
00:02:22,000 –> 00:02:23,800
Let me follow this person.

53
00:02:23,800 –> 00:02:29,080
And then yeah, pretty quick after that, I got a DM and I was like, whoa, that was, that

54
00:02:29,080 –> 00:02:30,080
was fast.

55
00:02:30,080 –> 00:02:34,600
I do usually try to be more chill, but I was so excited because also you, how would you

56
00:02:34,600 –> 00:02:35,600
say you identify?

57
00:02:35,600 –> 00:02:36,600
Oh, I’m Blazian.

58
00:02:36,600 –> 00:02:37,600
Cool.

59
00:02:37,600 –> 00:02:38,600
She’s also Blazian.

60
00:02:38,600 –> 00:02:40,560
And so I was like, I had to make it happen.

61
00:02:40,560 –> 00:02:41,560
I had to.

62
00:02:41,560 –> 00:02:43,680
You can’t let the moment slip by because what if they unfollow?

63
00:02:43,680 –> 00:02:44,680
You never know.

64
00:02:44,680 –> 00:02:45,680
You got to be quick.

65
00:02:45,680 –> 00:02:48,120
So okay, you explain what neuro linguistics are.

66
00:02:48,120 –> 00:02:53,280
So originally, I had this episode idea and I talked to Sarah about this originally.

67
00:02:53,280 –> 00:02:57,640
I was curious if there was any data on like language learning trends in the black community.

68
00:02:57,640 –> 00:03:00,440
Unsurprisingly, not really, which is why I couldn’t find any.

69
00:03:00,440 –> 00:03:04,760
I’ve done a lot of research just trying to find it because I had noticed at various HBCUs

70
00:03:04,760 –> 00:03:09,280
we’re seeing more like Korean language offerings and just kind of a diversification of the

71
00:03:09,280 –> 00:03:11,120
language offerings available at some HBCUs.

72
00:03:11,120 –> 00:03:12,120
I know not all.

73
00:03:12,120 –> 00:03:16,200
I know there are a lot of listeners who probably go to various HBCUs and are like, not at mine.

74
00:03:16,200 –> 00:03:17,560
But that’s a trend that I’ve noticed.

75
00:03:17,560 –> 00:03:22,120
I wondered if there was data to speak to that and unsurprisingly, no.

76
00:03:22,120 –> 00:03:27,600
But what Sarah told me, which was really good perspective, what is the issue if there is

77
00:03:27,600 –> 00:03:30,160
any issue with framing it as?

78
00:03:30,160 –> 00:03:33,760
Is black language learning trending in a certain direction?

79
00:03:33,760 –> 00:03:34,760
Yeah.

80
00:03:34,760 –> 00:03:40,640
So I think we have to take a step back and really think about why is it that we don’t

81
00:03:40,640 –> 00:03:47,480
see a lot of black people, particularly in the United States, learning another language?

82
00:03:47,480 –> 00:03:52,780
And I think it comes from, at least anecdotally, from a place of generational trauma.

83
00:03:52,780 –> 00:03:56,800
We come from enslaved Africans.

84
00:03:56,800 –> 00:04:00,840
We are the descendants of enslaved Africans where we’ve had our language stripped away,

85
00:04:00,840 –> 00:04:03,720
taken from us and been forced to learn.

86
00:04:03,720 –> 00:04:10,440
I really shouldn’t say forced, but we didn’t really have much of an option in terms of

87
00:04:10,440 –> 00:04:13,800
using one of the languages that was prevalent through slavery.

88
00:04:13,800 –> 00:04:17,600
Because if you think about it, you have people coming from all different tribal communities

89
00:04:17,600 –> 00:04:22,800
speaking all different languages, all being forced onto a boat, chained together, brought

90
00:04:22,800 –> 00:04:24,280
to the United States.

91
00:04:24,280 –> 00:04:26,440
You’re getting bought to the highest bidder.

92
00:04:26,440 –> 00:04:31,000
So you don’t know that people are being bought necessarily by tribal community.

93
00:04:31,000 –> 00:04:35,800
They’re just being bought based off of the needs of the industry at that time.

94
00:04:35,800 –> 00:04:40,200
And so people are not getting selected so that way they can stay a community.

95
00:04:40,200 –> 00:04:44,200
And when you have a bunch of people who don’t necessarily speak the same language together,

96
00:04:44,200 –> 00:04:49,200
but you need to survive for the sake of your own humanity, you’re going to then become

97
00:04:49,200 –> 00:04:51,400
linguistically very creative.

98
00:04:51,400 –> 00:04:56,480
And that’s what we’ve started to unpack in terms of historically what has happened with

99
00:04:56,480 –> 00:05:00,080
African-American English or African-American language.

100
00:05:00,080 –> 00:05:06,720
Then now you situate us in a time period where our language is cool, but it’s not considered

101
00:05:06,720 –> 00:05:07,720
proper English.

102
00:05:07,720 –> 00:05:14,520
And that’s because it’s not mainstream or standardized, let’s call it WASP-y American

103
00:05:14,520 –> 00:05:15,520
English.

104
00:05:15,520 –> 00:05:21,480
WASP meaning white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant-y American English.

105
00:05:21,480 –> 00:05:27,080
And so when you have a group of people who’ve had their mother languages stripped away,

106
00:05:27,080 –> 00:05:32,680
now we have developed a linguistic system that works for us, that is identified and

107
00:05:32,680 –> 00:05:37,960
deeply connected to our culture and has diversified over time as we’ve migrated to different parts

108
00:05:37,960 –> 00:05:40,880
of the US and developed our own little pockets and communities.

109
00:05:40,880 –> 00:05:44,520
Now you’re telling us our language is cool enough for a rap song, but it’s not cool enough

110
00:05:44,520 –> 00:05:49,800
for people to treat it as its own legitimate language.

111
00:05:49,800 –> 00:05:53,080
That’s already taxing on the individual.

112
00:05:53,080 –> 00:05:55,560
It’s already taxing on Black bodies.

113
00:05:55,560 –> 00:06:01,880
And then the idea of then learning another language when you still have anti-Blackness

114
00:06:01,880 –> 00:06:04,400
in all parts of the world.

115
00:06:04,400 –> 00:06:09,560
So for example, this idea about Asian languages and people learning Asian languages, in particular

116
00:06:09,560 –> 00:06:14,600
Black people learning Asian languages, you have to remember that a lot of Asian communities

117
00:06:14,600 –> 00:06:19,200
operate in this very homogeneous kind of community or communities.

118
00:06:19,200 –> 00:06:23,600
And so they’re used to people who look a specific type of way speaking the kind of language

119
00:06:23,600 –> 00:06:25,160
that they speak.

120
00:06:25,160 –> 00:06:30,560
And now you have, of course, some people who are very welcoming and embracing, but not

121
00:06:30,560 –> 00:06:34,800
all Asian people are going to be welcoming and embracing because they’re going to have

122
00:06:34,800 –> 00:06:40,900
their own internal biases against Blackness that also is prevalent in Asian cultures.

123
00:06:40,900 –> 00:06:47,500
So now you’ve got a Black body who unfortunately does not have the same linguistic connections

124
00:06:47,500 –> 00:06:49,040
to their ancestry.

125
00:06:49,040 –> 00:06:53,120
They’ve developed a linguistic system that’s been taught to them as being insufficient

126
00:06:53,120 –> 00:06:54,960
or lacking in some way.

127
00:06:54,960 –> 00:06:58,640
And then you try to learn another language that’s already going to treat you differently

128
00:06:58,640 –> 00:07:00,480
because of the way that you look.

129
00:07:00,480 –> 00:07:03,160
It puts you in a lose, lose, lose situation.

130
00:07:03,160 –> 00:07:07,360
And it can be very discouraging, especially when we think about the kinds of social burdens

131
00:07:07,360 –> 00:07:13,460
that code switching can have on individuals who have to manage this constantly.

132
00:07:13,460 –> 00:07:17,480
So I think for that reason, we don’t see a lot of it.

133
00:07:17,480 –> 00:07:22,220
And I think it’s mostly because at least anecdotally, just from what I’ve observed and even in my

134
00:07:22,220 –> 00:07:28,320
own experiences as someone who grew up bilingual, that it’s not always advantageous and it can

135
00:07:28,320 –> 00:07:29,840
be an uphill battle.

136
00:07:29,840 –> 00:07:33,000
That’s essentially what you said in the DMs when I asked you about it.

137
00:07:33,000 –> 00:07:38,520
And I was that much more interested because it’s so true that there are barriers in the

138
00:07:38,520 –> 00:07:43,640
way to Black people, especially in America, learning other languages.

139
00:07:43,640 –> 00:07:48,200
And this podcast is about the points of connections between Black and Asian cultures through the

140
00:07:48,200 –> 00:07:49,840
lens of pop culture mostly.

141
00:07:49,840 –> 00:07:53,940
However, I think it’s just as important and just as interesting to look at those barriers

142
00:07:53,940 –> 00:07:57,280
of connection because they’re not barriers we’re seeking out, right?

143
00:07:57,280 –> 00:07:59,520
We’re not rejecting Asian languages.

144
00:07:59,520 –> 00:08:04,320
I think in general, I’ve seen data that says there has been, at least I’ve seen data regarding

145
00:08:04,320 –> 00:08:06,600
Korean language learning across the board, if you will.

146
00:08:06,600 –> 00:08:11,280
I don’t know if languages can be on trend, but that’s the takeaway.

147
00:08:11,280 –> 00:08:16,120
Korean is definitely on trend and it’s been on trend for a while.

148
00:08:16,120 –> 00:08:21,440
Korean dramas, Korean pop music since, shoot, when I was in middle school was becoming on

149
00:08:21,440 –> 00:08:27,760
trend and it’s just grown exponentially as we are entering what is now what third, fourth,

150
00:08:27,760 –> 00:08:30,160
fifth generation K-pop groups.

151
00:08:30,160 –> 00:08:31,960
I don’t even know what generation we’re in now.

152
00:08:31,960 –> 00:08:34,520
I don’t even know all the way though.

153
00:08:34,520 –> 00:08:38,200
I know fourth is like getting kind of older, so we might be going into fifth.

154
00:08:38,200 –> 00:08:39,200
Unclear to me.

155
00:08:39,200 –> 00:08:44,880
I mean, I was around for like first generation K-pop, like not to date myself, but I am that

156
00:08:44,880 –> 00:08:45,880
person.

157
00:08:45,880 –> 00:08:51,280
And it’s funny too, because like as a Black and Korean American, one of the things that

158
00:08:51,280 –> 00:08:56,880
was I think unusual in my upbringing is that my mom would not allow me to think of myself

159
00:08:56,880 –> 00:08:58,160
as not being Korean.

160
00:08:58,160 –> 00:09:01,320
Like I went to Hangarakgyo, so I had to go to Korean language school.

161
00:09:01,320 –> 00:09:02,920
I learned how to read and write.

162
00:09:02,920 –> 00:09:07,000
We would go and visit my mom’s side of the family almost every summer, if not every other

163
00:09:07,000 –> 00:09:09,600
summer growing up through my childhood.

164
00:09:09,600 –> 00:09:16,120
So going to Korea and speaking Korean became necessary because my mom’s side of the family,

165
00:09:16,120 –> 00:09:18,000
like my grandmother didn’t speak English.

166
00:09:18,000 –> 00:09:23,880
My great aunts and their children, like nobody else spoke English except for maybe a few

167
00:09:23,880 –> 00:09:27,080
words here or there and like, hello and thank you.

168
00:09:27,080 –> 00:09:32,340
And so for me, it became very important to learn Korean, even though I would go into

169
00:09:32,340 –> 00:09:41,000
spaces and be ostracized or felt to be different despite my mom’s efforts in trying to ensure

170
00:09:41,000 –> 00:09:42,640
that yes, you are Korean.

171
00:09:42,640 –> 00:09:46,080
Like you’re going to learn how to make kimchi and you’re going to learn how to speak Korean

172
00:09:46,080 –> 00:09:49,920
and you’re going to learn how to read and write and do all the things that a Korean

173
00:09:49,920 –> 00:09:51,560
woman would learn how to do.

174
00:09:51,560 –> 00:09:56,840
Like your life motto is like life is suffering.

175
00:09:56,840 –> 00:10:01,000
And that’s a very Korean ajumma thing to say.

176
00:10:01,000 –> 00:10:06,080
But you know, she wanted me to grow up knowing where I come from and being able to connect

177
00:10:06,080 –> 00:10:07,080
with my family.

178
00:10:07,080 –> 00:10:09,880
And for that reason, I had to learn how to speak Korean.

179
00:10:09,880 –> 00:10:15,200
But there were plenty of instances where I’m outside of my family and I’m using Korean

180
00:10:15,200 –> 00:10:19,400
and people just look at me not knowing what to do and being very confused.

181
00:10:19,400 –> 00:10:22,800
Sometimes even being aggressive or very negative.

182
00:10:22,800 –> 00:10:27,640
And unfortunately, it has taken me years to learn contextually why they might feel that

183
00:10:27,640 –> 00:10:33,000
way because American GIs in Korea, you know, in case you haven’t read the latest New York

184
00:10:33,000 –> 00:10:38,080
Times article that recently came out, there was actually a lot of misconduct happening

185
00:10:38,080 –> 00:10:43,120
between American GIs and Korean civilians, in particular Korean women.

186
00:10:43,120 –> 00:10:49,680
And so while my mom was one of the few who did actually marry a black American GI and

187
00:10:49,680 –> 00:10:52,320
they were married until my dad passed away.

188
00:10:52,320 –> 00:10:55,600
So they were married for over 30 years.

189
00:10:55,600 –> 00:10:57,080
That wasn’t common.

190
00:10:57,080 –> 00:10:58,800
That wasn’t the norm.

191
00:10:58,800 –> 00:11:05,280
And unfortunately, there was this very negative reputation of American GIs, not just black,

192
00:11:05,280 –> 00:11:10,720
but also black GIs in Korea, such that people didn’t know what to do with me and had very

193
00:11:10,720 –> 00:11:12,200
negative feelings.

194
00:11:12,200 –> 00:11:18,880
And when you have people like Insumi and Yoon Mi-rae, these are black and Korean women in

195
00:11:18,880 –> 00:11:25,280
South Korea who are entertainers and very popular, even with those people existing and

196
00:11:25,280 –> 00:11:31,360
being readily accessible in that space, people didn’t see people like me as potentially being

197
00:11:31,360 –> 00:11:37,480
like that or having something to offer Korean people in the Korean community outside of

198
00:11:37,480 –> 00:11:39,160
the Korean diaspora.

199
00:11:39,160 –> 00:11:44,720
So it’s a strange space to be in when you’re a black person who doesn’t have the cultural

200
00:11:44,720 –> 00:11:50,240
ties and then also then wants to learn how to speak Korean because it is popular and

201
00:11:50,240 –> 00:11:56,240
Korean pop music is very catchy and the dramas are very exciting and they offer something

202
00:11:56,240 –> 00:11:59,240
different compared to what American TV shows offer.

203
00:11:59,240 –> 00:12:01,160
So I totally get why it’s popular.

204
00:12:01,160 –> 00:12:05,000
And if you can learn the language to then better understand the music and the dramas

205
00:12:05,000 –> 00:12:06,880
and all that kind of stuff, it’s inevitable.

206
00:12:06,880 –> 00:12:07,880
For sure.

207
00:12:07,880 –> 00:12:13,080
I know this podcast isn’t a critique on the military industrial complex, but if it were,

208
00:12:13,080 –> 00:12:16,120
that’s a big critique of the military industrial complex.

209
00:12:16,120 –> 00:12:18,320
Yeah, I have read that article.

210
00:12:18,320 –> 00:12:20,540
It is very common, unfortunately.

211
00:12:20,540 –> 00:12:25,640
And so I do see how it’s an uphill battle for black folks learning Korean.

212
00:12:25,640 –> 00:12:27,920
I will, full disclosure, I’m learning Korean.

213
00:12:27,920 –> 00:12:28,920
I’m not good at it.

214
00:12:28,920 –> 00:12:30,600
Don’t look at me.

215
00:12:30,600 –> 00:12:31,600
Don’t perceive me.

216
00:12:31,600 –> 00:12:34,040
However, even I feel trepidation entering spaces.

217
00:12:34,040 –> 00:12:37,360
I haven’t come across anything really negative personally.

218
00:12:37,360 –> 00:12:40,120
Thankfully, the school I’ve gone through been very positive.

219
00:12:40,120 –> 00:12:44,320
The people I’ve met have been really welcoming and really warm, but I know that’s not always

220
00:12:44,320 –> 00:12:45,320
the case.

221
00:12:45,320 –> 00:12:48,400
And there’s always trepidation when certain topics come up because, you know, when you’re

222
00:12:48,400 –> 00:12:51,880
learning, or ideally, I would say, if you’re learning Korean language, hopefully you’re

223
00:12:51,880 –> 00:12:55,640
also learning about Korean culture and not just grammar or learning to speak it.

224
00:12:55,640 –> 00:12:59,960
I find that learning languages in general, it’s very important to also learn the culture

225
00:12:59,960 –> 00:13:03,540
because language and culture go hand in hand, both in form of the other.

226
00:13:03,540 –> 00:13:05,020
But cultural topics will come up.

227
00:13:05,020 –> 00:13:08,280
And I’m always just like, I tense up because I’m like, is it the time?

228
00:13:08,280 –> 00:13:10,000
Is it now that it’s going to happen?

229
00:13:10,000 –> 00:13:12,080
And again, luckily for me, no.

230
00:13:12,080 –> 00:13:13,760
But there is opportunity for that to happen.

231
00:13:13,760 –> 00:13:16,960
And I can see that in and of itself, just having to deal with that.

232
00:13:16,960 –> 00:13:20,920
On top of everything we deal with as black people in America specifically, just it’s

233
00:13:20,920 –> 00:13:25,480
too much of a hurdle to overcome when you can learn something like, I don’t know, Spanish.

234
00:13:25,480 –> 00:13:26,480
It’s easily accessible.

235
00:13:26,480 –> 00:13:27,480
A lot of people speak it.

236
00:13:27,480 –> 00:13:29,180
Not that there, with every language there is.

237
00:13:29,180 –> 00:13:31,480
If you don’t know, racism is worldwide.

238
00:13:31,480 –> 00:13:33,960
But you know, there’s some languages I think you can learn with less.

239
00:13:33,960 –> 00:13:38,080
The lack of a better term baggage, I suppose, like you’re more welcomed into the space.

240
00:13:38,080 –> 00:13:40,680
Or maybe less unchecked baggage, I think.

241
00:13:40,680 –> 00:13:46,280
I think the interaction between Korean and black people is still very not really looked

242
00:13:46,280 –> 00:13:49,520
at like it’s a thing that I think we don’t speak about a lot.

243
00:13:49,520 –> 00:13:54,560
And I think some of that goes back into Korean culture and how they process trauma historically.

244
00:13:54,560 –> 00:13:57,640
But also black people just saying, okay, if y’all don’t want me here, I’m not going to

245
00:13:57,640 –> 00:13:58,640
be here.

246
00:13:58,640 –> 00:14:00,120
So it doesn’t get talked about much, I think.

247
00:14:00,120 –> 00:14:02,600
Yeah, there’s definitely trauma on both ends.

248
00:14:02,600 –> 00:14:07,400
And I think the younger the generation, the less of that trauma rears its ugly head.

249
00:14:07,400 –> 00:14:12,400
I think people are starting to be in a space now wanting to break some of these generational

250
00:14:12,400 –> 00:14:14,920
traumas, which is really encouraging.

251
00:14:14,920 –> 00:14:19,480
But I’m not going to lie, like don’t expect, you know, someone who’s ajumma or older, you

252
00:14:19,480 –> 00:14:24,280
know, a middle aged woman and older to be the most welcoming person.

253
00:14:24,280 –> 00:14:28,760
I mean, unless you’re meeting my mother, because she was married to a black man for over 30

254
00:14:28,760 –> 00:14:29,760
years.

255
00:14:29,760 –> 00:14:32,880
So I think that’s a very different perspective on black people.

256
00:14:32,880 –> 00:14:38,280
If you were to go to LA and interact with, let’s say, some Korean people in certain parts

257
00:14:38,280 –> 00:14:45,360
of LA where, you know, they went through the riots, if they went through any of those riots

258
00:14:45,360 –> 00:14:52,840
during the 90s, they might still be suffering from that direct trauma because tension between

259
00:14:52,840 –> 00:14:58,280
black and Korean Americans during that time period was very high.

260
00:14:58,280 –> 00:15:01,880
And so I like what you said, though, about language and culture.

261
00:15:01,880 –> 00:15:05,800
Like if you’re going to learn a language, learn the culture, which means learning a

262
00:15:05,800 –> 00:15:10,080
little bit, not just about eating customs or, you know, what to do when you’re moving

263
00:15:10,080 –> 00:15:13,720
in and out spaces, but also learn a little bit about the history of the people, because

264
00:15:13,720 –> 00:15:17,960
that’s when you’ll start to maybe understand why there may be tension.

265
00:15:17,960 –> 00:15:24,920
It doesn’t condone when people make xenophobic or racist, you know, actions or statements,

266
00:15:24,920 –> 00:15:29,480
but at least it puts you in a place of power because then you can understand why they might

267
00:15:29,480 –> 00:15:31,480
be reacting the way that they’re reacting.

268
00:15:31,480 –> 00:15:35,760
And then you can respond in a way that deescalates rather than escalates the situation.

269
00:15:35,760 –> 00:15:37,560
Oh, I totally agree.

270
00:15:37,560 –> 00:15:38,680
And I think it’s similar.

271
00:15:38,680 –> 00:15:43,360
We as black people in America, you know, when talking about African American language, all

272
00:15:43,360 –> 00:15:47,580
we’re doing is asking folks to understand like this is a legitimate language.

273
00:15:47,580 –> 00:15:49,140
We have legitimate grammar structures.

274
00:15:49,140 –> 00:15:51,620
Not that you need that to be legitimate, but we do.

275
00:15:51,620 –> 00:15:52,620
It does.

276
00:15:52,620 –> 00:15:53,960
It has legitimate grammar structures.

277
00:15:53,960 –> 00:15:54,960
There’s a history to it.

278
00:15:54,960 –> 00:15:56,820
There’s a reason why it sounds the way it does.

279
00:15:56,820 –> 00:15:58,880
There’s a reason it spread the way it did.

280
00:15:58,880 –> 00:16:01,580
All components of a language like any other.

281
00:16:01,580 –> 00:16:05,920
And if you learn that, I find that your understanding of black American history and culture is so

282
00:16:05,920 –> 00:16:06,920
much richer.

283
00:16:06,920 –> 00:16:10,900
And I feel like if people understood it, they could engage with us in a more deep way.

284
00:16:10,900 –> 00:16:14,480
And so I think if we’re asking folks to do that, it helps if you’re going into these

285
00:16:14,480 –> 00:16:17,880
language spaces, not just Korean, but any language, whatever language you’re learning

286
00:16:17,880 –> 00:16:18,880
at home.

287
00:16:18,880 –> 00:16:23,540
I think this is key to do because even if there isn’t as overt trauma between the two

288
00:16:23,540 –> 00:16:28,580
races as there is with Korean and black folk, there is always something because white supremacy

289
00:16:28,580 –> 00:16:30,940
has been exported internationally.

290
00:16:30,940 –> 00:16:33,340
Yeah, it’s everywhere.

291
00:16:33,340 –> 00:16:34,340
Unfortunately.

292
00:16:34,340 –> 00:16:35,700
I want to go back a little bit.

293
00:16:35,700 –> 00:16:38,580
You’re talking about growing up as a bilingual black person.

294
00:16:38,580 –> 00:16:42,500
I find it’s super interesting because I’ve had Malaysian friends in the past and I don’t

295
00:16:42,500 –> 00:16:44,500
know that they have that shared experience.

296
00:16:44,500 –> 00:16:50,140
Again, I won’t speak for them, but I’ve not heard them have their Asian parent be so adamant

297
00:16:50,140 –> 00:16:52,240
like, no, you are this.

298
00:16:52,240 –> 00:16:53,440
You’re going to learn the language.

299
00:16:53,440 –> 00:16:54,960
You are just like any other.

300
00:16:54,960 –> 00:16:58,740
And I’m just curious about what that experience was like, if you could expound a bit on it

301
00:16:58,740 –> 00:17:03,660
and if you know why your mom was so rooted in that.

302
00:17:03,660 –> 00:17:04,660
That’s a really good question.

303
00:17:04,660 –> 00:17:13,940
I have no idea why my mom was so focused on me knowing that I’m Korean because every parent

304
00:17:13,940 –> 00:17:17,420
does that little thing where when two parents fight, they’re like, that’s your daughter.

305
00:17:17,420 –> 00:17:18,420
No, that’s your daughter.

306
00:17:18,420 –> 00:17:19,420
You know what I mean?

307
00:17:19,420 –> 00:17:20,420
Yeah.

308
00:17:20,420 –> 00:17:23,740
That’s the kind of things where my parents would fight because I would have done something,

309
00:17:23,740 –> 00:17:25,220
whatever in case maybe.

310
00:17:25,220 –> 00:17:27,780
And at one point my mom’s like, no, that’s your daughter.

311
00:17:27,780 –> 00:17:30,260
And my dad would go, no, that’s your daughter.

312
00:17:30,260 –> 00:17:38,540
So all those instances aside, I think the biggest thing is that my mom married my father

313
00:17:38,540 –> 00:17:40,220
30 something years ago.

314
00:17:40,220 –> 00:17:45,240
And when she moved to the United States to be with my dad, she had no one else but my

315
00:17:45,240 –> 00:17:47,740
dad and my dad’s side of the family.

316
00:17:47,740 –> 00:17:53,160
And as much as my dad and dad’s side of family really tried to understand where she was coming

317
00:17:53,160 –> 00:17:56,820
from and even learn to eat some of the things that she liked to eat and learn some of the

318
00:17:56,820 –> 00:17:57,820
things.

319
00:17:57,820 –> 00:17:59,020
I mean, they never really learned Korean.

320
00:17:59,020 –> 00:18:07,520
My dad maybe knew all of three phrases and that was hello, thank you and basically where’s

321
00:18:07,520 –> 00:18:08,520
the bathroom?

322
00:18:08,520 –> 00:18:09,940
Oh, and he can order beer.

323
00:18:09,940 –> 00:18:14,500
So I was like soju, please, soju, please, beer, please.

324
00:18:14,500 –> 00:18:15,500
You know, like…

325
00:18:15,500 –> 00:18:16,500
The key phrases, of course.

326
00:18:16,500 –> 00:18:20,860
But essentially the key phrases how you can operate to like eat and drink and have a good

327
00:18:20,860 –> 00:18:23,580
time among Korean people basically.

328
00:18:23,580 –> 00:18:26,780
But other than that, you know, the rest of my dad’s side of family didn’t really learn

329
00:18:26,780 –> 00:18:30,460
Korean either, even though they were in direct contact with her.

330
00:18:30,460 –> 00:18:34,260
It was my mom who really took up that burden to learn English.

331
00:18:34,260 –> 00:18:39,700
And I think whether that was stressful for her or it could be also this kind of like

332
00:18:39,700 –> 00:18:44,900
identity crisis that one goes through when you feel like you don’t have someone to talk

333
00:18:44,900 –> 00:18:49,380
with in your own language and use your own words and like the way that you feel most

334
00:18:49,380 –> 00:18:51,020
comfortable expressing yourself.

335
00:18:51,020 –> 00:18:55,660
I think there could be this complex mix of some of those things that fed into why my

336
00:18:55,660 –> 00:18:58,960
mom was very adamant with me learning Korean.

337
00:18:58,960 –> 00:19:03,660
The other part of it is, of course, knowing her family does not speak English and she

338
00:19:03,660 –> 00:19:09,580
wanted to be able to go and spend time with her family as the balancing act for giving

339
00:19:09,580 –> 00:19:13,960
up her Korean citizenship and becoming an American citizen to be with my father.

340
00:19:13,960 –> 00:19:18,860
Just like, well, if I’m going to come to the US, like we need to be able to go see my family

341
00:19:18,860 –> 00:19:19,860
regularly.

342
00:19:19,860 –> 00:19:21,220
That was not a hard sell of my dad.

343
00:19:21,220 –> 00:19:22,720
My dad loved Korea.

344
00:19:22,720 –> 00:19:28,600
And so again, can totally understand why black people today, just people in general today

345
00:19:28,600 –> 00:19:31,400
love Korean everything and want to go visit.

346
00:19:31,400 –> 00:19:32,660
You know, I totally get it.

347
00:19:32,660 –> 00:19:38,580
But I think for her, it was the combination of just her own complex issues with sacrificing

348
00:19:38,580 –> 00:19:46,100
so much to be with my dad, but then also wanting to feel connected to her family in some way

349
00:19:46,100 –> 00:19:51,740
such that because I’m her family, like this is also something that I’m tasked with.

350
00:19:51,740 –> 00:19:56,140
Now, that didn’t necessarily translate to my younger sister.

351
00:19:56,140 –> 00:19:57,880
She’s 10 years younger than me.

352
00:19:57,880 –> 00:20:00,220
My little sister does understand some Korean.

353
00:20:00,220 –> 00:20:02,300
She doesn’t speak very much of it.

354
00:20:02,300 –> 00:20:08,560
And before you ask me, we actually don’t understand why that this happens, why people become

355
00:20:08,560 –> 00:20:11,740
receptive bilinguals, but not necessarily productive bilinguals in the sense of being

356
00:20:11,740 –> 00:20:15,060
able to produce as much as they can understand it.

357
00:20:15,060 –> 00:20:19,940
But I will say that I think I was held to a different set of standards when it came

358
00:20:19,940 –> 00:20:23,940
to understanding and speaking Korean compared to my sister.

359
00:20:23,940 –> 00:20:28,740
And that comes from, I think, a Korean cultural standpoint of what it means to be the first

360
00:20:28,740 –> 00:20:29,740
daughter.

361
00:20:29,740 –> 00:20:34,180
When you are the oldest daughter, there is a cultural thing that happens with being the

362
00:20:34,180 –> 00:20:35,180
first daughter.

363
00:20:35,180 –> 00:20:40,460
A lot of responsibility that comes with the family gets placed on the oldest daughter.

364
00:20:40,460 –> 00:20:45,380
And that’s something that my mom did because that’s what happened with her and with my,

365
00:20:45,380 –> 00:20:48,140
you know, it just gets passed down generation by generation.

366
00:20:48,140 –> 00:20:51,020
So yeah, I think that that was a big part of it.

367
00:20:51,020 –> 00:20:56,500
Also I think I think I was very much open to it because it’s different.

368
00:20:56,500 –> 00:20:58,860
I grew up in, for the most part, in North Carolina.

369
00:20:58,860 –> 00:21:03,660
We did move around a little bit and I spent a lot of my time around my black side of my

370
00:21:03,660 –> 00:21:06,100
family to my dad’s side of the family.

371
00:21:06,100 –> 00:21:10,860
And so when you grow up in that kind of environment, you’re always around your black side of the

372
00:21:10,860 –> 00:21:11,860
family.

373
00:21:11,860 –> 00:21:15,740
You know, my mom wanted to also, you know, be like, basically buck back.

374
00:21:15,740 –> 00:21:20,180
My mom wanted to buck back and be like, oh, you think you that you think this the Korean

375
00:21:20,180 –> 00:21:21,620
people, we do this and creepy.

376
00:21:21,620 –> 00:21:27,100
We did like Korean pride is such a such a underestimated thing.

377
00:21:27,100 –> 00:21:29,700
Like Korean people are so incredibly prideful.

378
00:21:29,700 –> 00:21:34,300
I think Asian people in general are very prideful and we show it in different ways, especially

379
00:21:34,300 –> 00:21:36,500
how we compete against each other.

380
00:21:36,500 –> 00:21:39,820
But my mom, I think also had a bit of that pride too.

381
00:21:39,820 –> 00:21:42,260
And I was like, oh, you think you’re this and you’re that.

382
00:21:42,260 –> 00:21:43,900
Well, this is what Korean people can do.

383
00:21:43,900 –> 00:21:45,620
And this is what Korean people have to offer.

384
00:21:45,620 –> 00:21:46,620
And my daughter’s Korean.

385
00:21:46,620 –> 00:21:47,620
She could do this.

386
00:21:47,620 –> 00:21:52,220
So just as much as like my parents would fight when I would do something that they didn’t

387
00:21:52,220 –> 00:21:57,460
like about whose daughter I was, when I would do something that they were proud of, oh,

388
00:21:57,460 –> 00:21:58,460
that’s my daughter.

389
00:21:58,460 –> 00:21:59,460
No, that’s my daughter.

390
00:21:59,460 –> 00:22:02,860
I think that was the other kind of fight, which is hilarious.

391
00:22:02,860 –> 00:22:07,740
But yeah, my mom was very, I think was coming from a very mixed place.

392
00:22:07,740 –> 00:22:14,340
And I’m grateful for that because it has definitely fueled my work and especially given me the

393
00:22:14,340 –> 00:22:16,660
perspective I have with the type of research that I do.

394
00:22:16,660 –> 00:22:21,740
Yeah, I was curious what drew you to the field of linguistics and the neuro linguistics specifically.

395
00:22:21,740 –> 00:22:26,060
So I was always really good at science and math.

396
00:22:26,060 –> 00:22:28,220
English was not my strong suit.

397
00:22:28,220 –> 00:22:34,340
And I think now reflecting back on my experiences, it could be because the type of English you

398
00:22:34,340 –> 00:22:39,580
do in school was not the English that I’m familiar with as an African American person.

399
00:22:39,580 –> 00:22:45,760
So it’s just one of those things where you become very uncomfortable in that space and

400
00:22:45,760 –> 00:22:51,940
trying to do well on their tests and their standards of how to do English.

401
00:22:51,940 –> 00:22:54,540
We’re going to put that to the side.

402
00:22:54,540 –> 00:22:57,780
But I found that I was really good at math and really good at science because math was

403
00:22:57,780 –> 00:22:58,780
a language I could understand.

404
00:22:58,780 –> 00:23:04,020
I could do really well, not to like fit the Asian stereotype, but that was just something

405
00:23:04,020 –> 00:23:06,820
that I enjoyed because I liked the puzzle.

406
00:23:06,820 –> 00:23:11,180
But then when I got to college, I realized that I did not like being in a lab.

407
00:23:11,180 –> 00:23:15,460
And so at the time I was a chemistry pre-pharmacy major, I thought I was going to become a pharmacist.

408
00:23:15,460 –> 00:23:17,220
I didn’t want to be pipetting all day.

409
00:23:17,220 –> 00:23:21,500
Like there was nothing exciting about working with chemicals all day.

410
00:23:21,500 –> 00:23:24,220
I was just like, oh, I got to do something else.

411
00:23:24,220 –> 00:23:28,900
Now I had taken Model UN when I was in high school, so I was like, well, I’ll just do

412
00:23:28,900 –> 00:23:32,140
international affairs, take a couple of foreign language classes.

413
00:23:32,140 –> 00:23:36,300
So I was studying a little bit of Japanese, a little bit of Mandarin, but for my own Korean

414
00:23:36,300 –> 00:23:38,940
selfish reasons.

415
00:23:38,940 –> 00:23:44,940
I was doing all of this and my undergraduate advisor, when I told her I wanted to switch

416
00:23:44,940 –> 00:23:50,220
from chemistry to international affairs, which meant switching also colleges within the university,

417
00:23:50,220 –> 00:23:55,100
she was like, well, I don’t think it’s a good idea for you to give up on science altogether.

418
00:23:55,100 –> 00:23:56,100
Why don’t you think about linguistics?

419
00:23:56,100 –> 00:23:58,580
And I never heard about linguistics.

420
00:23:58,580 –> 00:24:01,940
That was just a foreign word to me.

421
00:24:01,940 –> 00:24:04,620
And she was like, yeah, you like science, you like language.

422
00:24:04,620 –> 00:24:07,220
I see you’re doing well in these foreign language classes.

423
00:24:07,220 –> 00:24:11,220
Take an intro to linguistics course, see how you feel about it and go from there.

424
00:24:11,220 –> 00:24:12,220
So I was like, okay.

425
00:24:12,220 –> 00:24:16,040
So I took a linguistics course and instantly fell in love.

426
00:24:16,040 –> 00:24:22,100
It was everything that I liked about science, but I got to do that with and about people

427
00:24:22,100 –> 00:24:27,580
and understanding how people use language and understand the systematicity of language.

428
00:24:27,580 –> 00:24:32,180
I think sometimes people think when it’s linguistics, all we do is translate or interpret.

429
00:24:32,180 –> 00:24:35,660
And that’s actually not what most linguists do.

430
00:24:35,660 –> 00:24:39,980
We usually focus on a very specific level of language and understanding how that system

431
00:24:39,980 –> 00:24:40,980
works.

432
00:24:40,980 –> 00:24:44,820
What are the things that make languages different, but also what are the things that make languages

433
00:24:44,820 –> 00:24:48,000
maybe potentially universal in some aspect?

434
00:24:48,000 –> 00:24:52,020
It’s a way of thinking about how we are all underlying with human.

435
00:24:52,020 –> 00:24:54,140
And that became such a cool thing for me.

436
00:24:54,140 –> 00:24:59,060
But it wasn’t until I had finished my undergrad and I was working for a publisher that I realized

437
00:24:59,060 –> 00:25:05,060
that there were people who research language in the brain, but didn’t have linguistics

438
00:25:05,060 –> 00:25:06,060
training.

439
00:25:06,060 –> 00:25:09,100
They’re coming from a psychology training or a neuroscience training.

440
00:25:09,100 –> 00:25:15,740
I’ll have to say, it took me a long time to get to where I’m at now, but it all started

441
00:25:15,740 –> 00:25:16,740
when I was an undergrad.

442
00:25:16,740 –> 00:25:20,340
And it’s my undergrad advisor being like, hey, you like language, you like science,

443
00:25:20,340 –> 00:25:21,940
you should think about linguistics.

444
00:25:21,940 –> 00:25:23,780
And that’s how I got to where I’m at now.

445
00:25:23,780 –> 00:25:24,780
That’s super cool.

446
00:25:24,780 –> 00:25:29,140
I’ve always been fascinated by languages, like the origin of languages, how they come

447
00:25:29,140 –> 00:25:31,900
to be, the human process of it all.

448
00:25:31,900 –> 00:25:36,420
To the point I took Latin in high school where most people do not do that.

449
00:25:36,420 –> 00:25:41,060
I take Spanish or something, quote unquote useful, but I just love breaking downwards

450
00:25:41,060 –> 00:25:42,540
and breaking them apart.

451
00:25:42,540 –> 00:25:47,680
And so I always assumed most linguists are coming at it from that space, but I never

452
00:25:47,680 –> 00:25:51,220
even thought of coming at it from the scientific side.

453
00:25:51,220 –> 00:25:52,660
So I find that really fascinating.

454
00:25:52,660 –> 00:25:56,940
What has been your experience working in maybe linguistics more broadly, but specifically

455
00:25:56,940 –> 00:26:00,100
neuro linguistics as a biracial and bilingual person?

456
00:26:00,100 –> 00:26:03,700
Because I imagine that experience is different than a lot of your colleagues.

457
00:26:03,700 –> 00:26:04,700
Yeah.

458
00:26:04,700 –> 00:26:06,140
So it’s funny.

459
00:26:06,140 –> 00:26:13,300
I think being a black biracial bilingual person in general, when you’re talking about academia

460
00:26:13,300 –> 00:26:21,020
is a wild space to be in because for one, I really grew up by the cultural as well as

461
00:26:21,020 –> 00:26:22,460
bilingual.

462
00:26:22,460 –> 00:26:25,860
And so I see how competing systems interact all the time.

463
00:26:25,860 –> 00:26:28,420
I grew up with that my entire life.

464
00:26:28,420 –> 00:26:32,780
So it’s a very different thing to have that as a lived experience and think about what

465
00:26:32,780 –> 00:26:39,140
that means when you’re doing research on bilingual processing, because then the idea about thinking

466
00:26:39,140 –> 00:26:46,940
about how one brain can handle two competing language systems in a single brain, if you

467
00:26:46,940 –> 00:26:50,220
didn’t grow up with that experience, you’re going to have a very different perspective

468
00:26:50,220 –> 00:26:52,700
on how you think that might work.

469
00:26:52,700 –> 00:26:57,500
And what’s nice is that I’ve been able to find other people who don’t have the same

470
00:26:57,500 –> 00:27:04,040
experiences me, but have enough of a similar experience where we can read each other, see

471
00:27:04,040 –> 00:27:08,300
how each other is thinking about a particular type of research.

472
00:27:08,300 –> 00:27:12,780
Now in terms of my work specifically, so I think I mentioned before what I’m interested

473
00:27:12,780 –> 00:27:14,100
in is language in the brain.

474
00:27:14,100 –> 00:27:19,580
I’m specifically interested in the parts of the brain that support our ability to combine

475
00:27:19,580 –> 00:27:21,460
words in meaningful ways.

476
00:27:21,460 –> 00:27:26,540
So what are all the things that have to happen for you to take something like red and boat

477
00:27:26,540 –> 00:27:27,900
and put them together?

478
00:27:27,900 –> 00:27:33,020
That was in essence, a lot of what my PhD advisor was working on and is still working

479
00:27:33,020 –> 00:27:38,020
on just the combinatorics is what we like to call it, that allow us to do this kind

480
00:27:38,020 –> 00:27:39,020
of combination.

481
00:27:39,020 –> 00:27:43,100
Because it’s not just a matter of hearing a word and then waiting for the next word,

482
00:27:43,100 –> 00:27:47,900
but you have to know how those two words combine versus two words that even if they come sequentially

483
00:27:47,900 –> 00:27:51,300
that don’t combine and understanding how they combine.

484
00:27:51,300 –> 00:27:55,660
Because for example, red and boat gives you the interpretation that the boat is painted

485
00:27:55,660 –> 00:27:56,740
red.

486
00:27:56,740 –> 00:28:00,780
But if I told you a meat boat, you’re not going to think a boat that’s made out of meat.

487
00:28:00,780 –> 00:28:04,500
You’re going to think it’s a boat that carries me.

488
00:28:04,500 –> 00:28:08,180
So it’s a different function, but they appear in the same order.

489
00:28:08,180 –> 00:28:09,840
They come sequentially one after another.

490
00:28:09,840 –> 00:28:11,820
The only thing that’s different is red versus meat.

491
00:28:11,820 –> 00:28:13,980
So how do we get to this different interpretation?

492
00:28:13,980 –> 00:28:16,020
But then what happens when you’re a bilingual?

493
00:28:16,020 –> 00:28:19,740
Because we do this thing sometimes when we meet another bilingual and we’re like, oh,

494
00:28:19,740 –> 00:28:23,700
I can just use all the words that I know and I can just combine them in all the ways that

495
00:28:23,700 –> 00:28:26,260
make sense and we just get it.

496
00:28:26,260 –> 00:28:32,380
And it’s very different from growing up as a literate, educated person in a single language

497
00:28:32,380 –> 00:28:37,340
because you’ve been trained to use that language in a particular way.

498
00:28:37,340 –> 00:28:41,560
You never get trained to code switch or be bilingual, right?

499
00:28:41,560 –> 00:28:45,500
It’s something that naturally happens as a part of trying to communicate.

500
00:28:45,500 –> 00:28:49,820
And so I think that in its essence is the rawest way that we can really look at how

501
00:28:49,820 –> 00:28:54,180
language works in the brain and understand how the brain is able to do these kinds of

502
00:28:54,180 –> 00:28:55,180
operations.

503
00:28:55,180 –> 00:29:01,860
I think then from there, the departure into what I’m doing now versus what I was doing

504
00:29:01,860 –> 00:29:07,060
during my PhD is I’m thinking, okay, well, how did I get here?

505
00:29:07,060 –> 00:29:12,220
Because I didn’t have the same linguistic experiences as people who grew up only learning

506
00:29:12,220 –> 00:29:18,100
Korean or only learning African American English or only learning WASP, standardized American

507
00:29:18,100 –> 00:29:19,100
English.

508
00:29:19,100 –> 00:29:25,300
And despite having a very different kind of input such that I can maintain one language

509
00:29:25,300 –> 00:29:31,300
at a time if I need to or use all of my languages together when I need to.

510
00:29:31,300 –> 00:29:34,940
And that’s something that’s beautiful about the bilingual experience that we don’t always

511
00:29:34,940 –> 00:29:36,860
get to think about or talk about.

512
00:29:36,860 –> 00:29:42,500
It’s always this kind of, oh, how do I fit in this monolingual box versus this monolingual

513
00:29:42,500 –> 00:29:47,700
box or feeling incompetent because, well, I don’t speak this one particular language

514
00:29:47,700 –> 00:29:50,380
as well as this other in this way.

515
00:29:50,380 –> 00:29:55,820
And that’s been an interesting perspective that I can carry into how I analyze data and

516
00:29:55,820 –> 00:29:58,420
how I set up my research questions.

517
00:29:58,420 –> 00:30:04,980
And even just thinking through how do I actually test the question and hypotheses that I create

518
00:30:04,980 –> 00:30:09,940
based off of what people have done before with a very monolingual perspective?

519
00:30:09,940 –> 00:30:16,740
How do I now make this theory or develop a theory about how brain and language work that

520
00:30:16,740 –> 00:30:23,260
is more inclusive of all different types of linguistic experiences, especially my own?

521
00:30:23,260 –> 00:30:28,620
Because I didn’t see people who look like me, think like me, talk like me doing this

522
00:30:28,620 –> 00:30:29,620
research.

523
00:30:29,620 –> 00:30:33,780
I saw people who were coming from Europe where it’s no big deal.

524
00:30:33,780 –> 00:30:37,260
They don’t have the same kind of competition or conflict.

525
00:30:37,260 –> 00:30:42,660
At least I don’t think they suffer from that same kind of conflict between their languages

526
00:30:42,660 –> 00:30:45,860
as I have with mine, for example.

527
00:30:45,860 –> 00:30:48,860
And we’re starting to see that also in the bilingualism literature.

528
00:30:48,860 –> 00:30:54,380
We don’t see that all bilinguals show some of these bilingual advantage effects that

529
00:30:54,380 –> 00:30:58,980
have been reported if you’ve read these kinds of articles in the New York Times or in other

530
00:30:58,980 –> 00:31:00,220
reputable news sources.

531
00:31:00,220 –> 00:31:05,180
I think being literally, I don’t know of any other Blasian neuro linguists out there.

532
00:31:05,180 –> 00:31:09,580
If you find them, please send them my way because I feel very lonely here sometimes.

533
00:31:09,580 –> 00:31:14,340
But in the interactions that I have with black neuroscientists, with Asian neuroscientists,

534
00:31:14,340 –> 00:31:19,700
and then with the non-black, non-Asian neuroscientists, we all have very different experiences.

535
00:31:19,700 –> 00:31:22,820
And I think I offer a very different perspective in how it all works.

536
00:31:22,820 –> 00:31:27,500
And because of that, I can, I think, push the field in a more inclusive direction when

537
00:31:27,500 –> 00:31:31,820
we think about models and theories and the clinical implications thereof.

538
00:31:31,820 –> 00:31:32,820
That’s really awesome.

539
00:31:32,820 –> 00:31:37,660
I wish there were more as well because it’s so hard because obviously, or maybe not obviously,

540
00:31:37,660 –> 00:31:42,940
a lot of my curiosity stems around my own experiences as a biracial person, as a black

541
00:31:42,940 –> 00:31:43,940
person.

542
00:31:43,940 –> 00:31:48,180
But when you’re interested in language, those things like you were speaking to come into

543
00:31:48,180 –> 00:31:49,180
conflict.

544
00:31:49,180 –> 00:31:52,900
There’s not as much, if any, sometimes research done in these spaces.

545
00:31:52,900 –> 00:31:58,300
So I would love to have a more wider diversity in academia in general, of course, but especially

546
00:31:58,300 –> 00:32:00,780
in linguistics and neuro linguistics.

547
00:32:00,780 –> 00:32:02,360
I think that’d be really cool.

548
00:32:02,360 –> 00:32:05,660
You were talking about the conflict that bilinguals face here.

549
00:32:05,660 –> 00:32:10,380
And I think it’s really interesting that that does reflect different language outcomes like

550
00:32:10,380 –> 00:32:11,900
you were speaking to.

551
00:32:11,900 –> 00:32:15,580
And I do wonder, we have these articles that are talking about, oh, the benefits of being

552
00:32:15,580 –> 00:32:17,780
growing up bilingual, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

553
00:32:17,780 –> 00:32:24,140
I wonder though, should we work as a society in America to remove those conflicts?

554
00:32:24,140 –> 00:32:28,060
Or are those differences really negative differences or are they just differences?

555
00:32:28,060 –> 00:32:30,140
I’m going to say that they’re just differences.

556
00:32:30,140 –> 00:32:33,220
There are always going to be points of conflict.

557
00:32:33,220 –> 00:32:39,940
But the way that we as people can find self betterment, can strive to be better people

558
00:32:39,940 –> 00:32:40,940
is through conflict.

559
00:32:40,940 –> 00:32:46,780
Like you can’t be a better person if at some point something didn’t create tension or force

560
00:32:46,780 –> 00:32:50,580
you to go through some situation that made you feel uncomfortable.

561
00:32:50,580 –> 00:32:57,460
That’s just how we can become better people and become a more humane society is understanding

562
00:32:57,460 –> 00:32:59,580
that we’re not all built the same.

563
00:32:59,580 –> 00:33:03,900
And because we’re not all built the same, there is going to be natural conflict.

564
00:33:03,900 –> 00:33:09,220
Where I think the conflicts can be taxing or demanding is actually when it comes to

565
00:33:09,220 –> 00:33:11,660
making social decisions.

566
00:33:11,660 –> 00:33:17,060
It’s the idea of when to use what particular language and how do you put your best face

567
00:33:17,060 –> 00:33:21,940
forward using your language, depending on who you’re talking to, who’s around and what

568
00:33:21,940 –> 00:33:23,300
context you’re in.

569
00:33:23,300 –> 00:33:28,100
All of that decision making can be relatively exhausting.

570
00:33:28,100 –> 00:33:32,500
And that can fluctuate also depending on your own personality.

571
00:33:32,500 –> 00:33:38,060
Are you someone who thrives in these kinds of very extroverted type environments where

572
00:33:38,060 –> 00:33:40,220
you’re around a lot of people and you get to socialize?

573
00:33:40,220 –> 00:33:41,940
Me, I’m naturally very introverted.

574
00:33:41,940 –> 00:33:44,920
So for me, it’s just like all of it is very exhausting.

575
00:33:44,920 –> 00:33:49,900
So once it goes past more than talking to one person at a time, I’m just slightly overwhelmed.

576
00:33:49,900 –> 00:33:55,060
And then it exponentially increases the more people are there, especially when it’s more

577
00:33:55,060 –> 00:33:56,540
people that I don’t know.

578
00:33:56,540 –> 00:34:00,780
And I have to try and navigate when to use what and how to say what.

579
00:34:00,780 –> 00:34:05,140
If I could be someone as urban times where I had a little bit to drink and I just went

580
00:34:05,140 –> 00:34:09,100
with Corrine because I was feeling and thinking in Corrine at that moment, I just gave up

581
00:34:09,100 –> 00:34:13,060
on trying to manage when to use what language.

582
00:34:13,060 –> 00:34:16,780
And I think a lot of times black people, we talk about code switching being exhausting

583
00:34:16,780 –> 00:34:23,500
because we feel like we have to put on a facade or make white people in particular feel comfortable

584
00:34:23,500 –> 00:34:24,740
around us.

585
00:34:24,740 –> 00:34:27,780
And the exhaustion is not the code switching act itself.

586
00:34:27,780 –> 00:34:32,180
It’s not the suppressing of the language that you don’t want to use.

587
00:34:32,180 –> 00:34:35,820
The exhaustion is having to feel like you have to manage your communication for the

588
00:34:35,820 –> 00:34:41,540
sake of this other person because that other person is a social cost or social burden on

589
00:34:41,540 –> 00:34:47,100
your own desires, wishes, whatever intentions, however that interaction is supposed to go.

590
00:34:47,100 –> 00:34:52,220
So I don’t have evidence to speak to that specifically, but the evidence that I do see

591
00:34:52,220 –> 00:34:58,060
when it comes to costs of switching languages doesn’t come from the linguistic system.

592
00:34:58,060 –> 00:35:04,020
It absolutely comes from things like attention and working memory, things that we use cognitively

593
00:35:04,020 –> 00:35:05,980
speaking in all other facets.

594
00:35:05,980 –> 00:35:11,540
It’s not language specific and they do show up in when we do make these kinds of social

595
00:35:11,540 –> 00:35:13,020
cognitive decisions.

596
00:35:13,020 –> 00:35:19,380
So I’m more willing to believe that the burden is on the social aspects of languaging versus

597
00:35:19,380 –> 00:35:22,980
the actual linguistic aspects of languaging.

598
00:35:22,980 –> 00:35:24,140
It’s actually really interesting.

599
00:35:24,140 –> 00:35:28,700
I’ve never thought of it this way, but you’re talking about how it’s the social burden that

600
00:35:28,700 –> 00:35:31,180
makes it very difficult to code switch.

601
00:35:31,180 –> 00:35:35,160
And again, I’m not going to claim that this is equal or necessarily the exact same as

602
00:35:35,160 –> 00:35:39,820
being fully bilingual, but I think about me and my friends who are black talking about

603
00:35:39,820 –> 00:35:42,300
code switching and how code switching is very demanding.

604
00:35:42,300 –> 00:35:48,100
However, if I think about it, when we’re talking amongst ourselves, we are definitely constantly

605
00:35:48,100 –> 00:35:52,780
using both whatever you want to call it, general American English and African American English.

606
00:35:52,780 –> 00:35:56,620
But nobody’s feeling burdened by switching back and forth because there’s no social requirement

607
00:35:56,620 –> 00:35:57,620
to do so.

608
00:35:57,620 –> 00:35:58,620
There’s no pressure there.

609
00:35:58,620 –> 00:36:01,860
We’re just doing it because we’re fluent, quote unquote, if you will, in both.

610
00:36:01,860 –> 00:36:03,980
And so both just come out equally.

611
00:36:03,980 –> 00:36:08,240
I imagine that’s similar to the experience you were talking about earlier being bilingual

612
00:36:08,240 –> 00:36:11,900
and meeting another bilingual person and just saying, oh great, I can just let whatever

613
00:36:11,900 –> 00:36:12,900
fly.

614
00:36:12,900 –> 00:36:13,900
Exactly.

615
00:36:13,900 –> 00:36:18,820
And honestly, what evidence we do have of cost of switching and how that might be social

616
00:36:18,820 –> 00:36:23,720
only comes from the fact that these effects occur when you are forced to switch because

617
00:36:23,720 –> 00:36:30,000
of a particular cue or you’re forced to suppress one language in a particular scenario.

618
00:36:30,000 –> 00:36:31,920
That’s where we see robust effects.

619
00:36:31,920 –> 00:36:37,640
And again, these effects appear very much in regions that are associated with more general

620
00:36:37,640 –> 00:36:43,800
cognitive tasks like attention and working memory, conflict resolution type tasks, then

621
00:36:43,800 –> 00:36:50,600
the linguistic type tasks, the parts of the brain that are more typically associated with

622
00:36:50,600 –> 00:36:56,940
specific language functions like combining words, processing speech, those kinds of things.

623
00:36:56,940 –> 00:37:01,700
Do you have any advice for black language learners specifically?

624
00:37:01,700 –> 00:37:06,040
It could be from the linguistic point of view or just your experience as a bilingual person

625
00:37:06,040 –> 00:37:07,700
watching people try to learn your language.

626
00:37:07,700 –> 00:37:11,500
I think the advice I can give is don’t be discouraged and find your tribe.

627
00:37:11,500 –> 00:37:13,380
So for the first part, don’t be discouraged.

628
00:37:13,380 –> 00:37:15,960
I think this is true of any language learner.

629
00:37:15,960 –> 00:37:18,940
There are going to be times where you feel like you’ve hit a rut.

630
00:37:18,940 –> 00:37:22,860
There are going to be times where you feel like the words just won’t come out.

631
00:37:22,860 –> 00:37:25,020
And that’s so relatable right now.

632
00:37:25,020 –> 00:37:28,440
You know, that’s I mean, if you think about it, when you are learning a language, you’re

633
00:37:28,440 –> 00:37:35,340
learning a new way of forming your mouth to make sounds you’ve never had to make before.

634
00:37:35,340 –> 00:37:40,440
And if you don’t intuitively still have this sense of being able to pick up what those

635
00:37:40,440 –> 00:37:45,020
sounds are and you’re trying to match something that you don’t hear as well because you weren’t

636
00:37:45,020 –> 00:37:48,000
attuned to hearing for this distinction.

637
00:37:48,000 –> 00:37:50,260
And this is something that does happen with language learning.

638
00:37:50,260 –> 00:37:56,420
We over time, once we learn our language, it becomes harder to then listen for things

639
00:37:56,420 –> 00:37:59,500
that we weren’t attuned to listen for as an adult.

640
00:37:59,500 –> 00:38:02,940
That’s what makes language learning in a second language a bit harder.

641
00:38:02,940 –> 00:38:05,740
It’s not impossible, but it does make it a little harder.

642
00:38:05,740 –> 00:38:11,580
And so you’re breaking old habits, old brain habits to form new ones to be more accepting

643
00:38:11,580 –> 00:38:15,700
of not only the language that you already know, but of this new language that you’re

644
00:38:15,700 –> 00:38:17,140
trying to learn.

645
00:38:17,140 –> 00:38:22,100
And so with that, it can sometimes be very discouraging, but don’t be discouraged.

646
00:38:22,100 –> 00:38:26,940
It’s just something that over time, the more you do it, the more comfortable you get.

647
00:38:26,940 –> 00:38:30,220
And the ultimate goal is just to be able to be conversant, right?

648
00:38:30,220 –> 00:38:35,260
You just want to be able to interact with this language and be able to better understand

649
00:38:35,260 –> 00:38:36,340
it than you did before.

650
00:38:36,340 –> 00:38:40,820
So with that, the second part, find your tribe, is really important because you want to be

651
00:38:40,820 –> 00:38:45,620
in an environment and find a community of people where you feel safe to make mistakes,

652
00:38:45,620 –> 00:38:49,700
where you feel like you’re going to get the kind of support you need to not only learn

653
00:38:49,700 –> 00:38:55,260
the language, but also learn the culture, learn the history, learn things about not

654
00:38:55,260 –> 00:38:58,240
only the language, but the people who speak that language.

655
00:38:58,240 –> 00:39:01,780
Because when you learn a language, you shouldn’t learn a language like you learn math to do

656
00:39:01,780 –> 00:39:03,580
some self-sufficient skill.

657
00:39:03,580 –> 00:39:08,620
You’re learning language to be social and to be a part of the human experience and look

658
00:39:08,620 –> 00:39:12,980
at it from a different lens or experience it through a different perspective.

659
00:39:12,980 –> 00:39:17,380
And so with that comes actually finding people you want to hang out with.

660
00:39:17,380 –> 00:39:20,340
Why learn a language when you don’t want to hang out with the people who also speak that

661
00:39:20,340 –> 00:39:21,340
language?

662
00:39:21,340 –> 00:39:27,100
No person who’s learning Korean right now doesn’t want to secretly meet whatever bias

663
00:39:27,100 –> 00:39:31,060
they have and be able to tell them in their language, oh my God, I love you.

664
00:39:31,060 –> 00:39:32,060
Will you marry me tomorrow?

665
00:39:32,060 –> 00:39:33,060
Like, who does it?

666
00:39:33,060 –> 00:39:34,060
It’s a call out.

667
00:39:34,060 –> 00:39:36,220
It’s not true though.

668
00:39:36,220 –> 00:39:39,540
So go into that with that in mind and find your tribe.

669
00:39:39,540 –> 00:39:42,900
Find some friends who have biases of the same group, but not the same one because you don’t

670
00:39:42,900 –> 00:39:45,500
want to compete for the same person.

671
00:39:45,500 –> 00:39:51,360
And have an opportunity where you can interact with each other, use language together.

672
00:39:51,360 –> 00:39:57,020
And in a way it continues to build what language is intended to do, which is to allow us to

673
00:39:57,020 –> 00:39:58,300
be social.

674
00:39:58,300 –> 00:40:01,220
So yeah, don’t be discouraged and find your tribe.

675
00:40:01,220 –> 00:40:07,460
I will second that from my just personal anecdotal experience, which is not the same as a well-studied

676
00:40:07,460 –> 00:40:08,980
doctor of neuro linguistics.

677
00:40:08,980 –> 00:40:14,740
However, that was the mistake I made learning Korean was that because my interests are naturally,

678
00:40:14,740 –> 00:40:19,540
oh, I’m so fascinated by language, I dove into the grammar, but learned it very similar

679
00:40:19,540 –> 00:40:20,540
to your learning math.

680
00:40:20,540 –> 00:40:23,620
You’re like going into the books and you’re researching and you’re trying to understand

681
00:40:23,620 –> 00:40:25,380
how this language works, which is fun.

682
00:40:25,380 –> 00:40:26,860
If that’s what you want to do, it is fun.

683
00:40:26,860 –> 00:40:28,700
I found it very fun anyway.

684
00:40:28,700 –> 00:40:33,020
But it means I’m a whole lot less conversational considering how long I’ve studied and how

685
00:40:33,020 –> 00:40:34,260
much grammar I know.

686
00:40:34,260 –> 00:40:36,260
So I would second that you’re in it to be social.

687
00:40:36,260 –> 00:40:40,260
So if you can, the quicker you can move into the social aspect, I would say the better.

688
00:40:40,260 –> 00:40:42,060
And that’s, I think, common advice.

689
00:40:42,060 –> 00:40:43,060
I just ignored it.

690
00:40:43,060 –> 00:40:44,060
So that’s on me.

691
00:40:44,060 –> 00:40:48,140
But well, we all want to ignore it because that’s actually the hard part.

692
00:40:48,140 –> 00:40:54,020
The hard part is being like, okay, I’m going to sound stupid, which honestly no one wants

693
00:40:54,020 –> 00:40:55,020
to sound stupid.

694
00:40:55,020 –> 00:40:59,740
I think I put out a TikTok video, which was very much me ranting about how I think it’s

695
00:40:59,740 –> 00:41:04,820
really stupid that we have this tightly woven connection between your language abilities

696
00:41:04,820 –> 00:41:06,980
and how smart someone is.

697
00:41:06,980 –> 00:41:11,880
There is a loose connection, but they’re not so interdependent that you can make a judgment

698
00:41:11,880 –> 00:41:14,500
off of one from the other and vice versa.

699
00:41:14,500 –> 00:41:21,420
And so the sooner one can let go of that ego and just be willing to listen and be open

700
00:41:21,420 –> 00:41:28,340
and be willing to just make mistakes, stutter, do all those things over time, those things

701
00:41:28,340 –> 00:41:30,340
will happen less and less frequently.

702
00:41:30,340 –> 00:41:33,860
And that’s because the more you do it, the more you engage in it.

703
00:41:33,860 –> 00:41:38,620
We see like this is why people always talk about immersion because what you need is greater

704
00:41:38,620 –> 00:41:44,380
opportunities for both input and output for your language skill to continue to update

705
00:41:44,380 –> 00:41:45,500
and improve.

706
00:41:45,500 –> 00:41:48,660
That’s how the learning mechanism is modeled to work.

707
00:41:48,660 –> 00:41:52,660
Now research is still trying to figure out how those mechanisms work exactly, which is

708
00:41:52,660 –> 00:41:58,500
why you haven’t heard a good answer from some of us about how do we best and most efficiently

709
00:41:58,500 –> 00:41:59,780
learn a language.

710
00:41:59,780 –> 00:42:04,420
But what we do know is the amount and the quality of one’s input as well as output

711
00:42:04,420 –> 00:42:10,580
matters in creating that opportunity, especially for the fact that when you practice producing,

712
00:42:10,580 –> 00:42:12,740
you’re also hearing it back to yourself.

713
00:42:12,740 –> 00:42:18,580
It’s a way of getting additional input because you’ve now said it out loud and it forms a

714
00:42:18,580 –> 00:42:24,100
feedback loop because as you then hear yourself saying it, as you’re seeing how people, when

715
00:42:24,100 –> 00:42:28,620
you get the eyes of like, oh, I understand, or oh, I don’t understand, you’re now able

716
00:42:28,620 –> 00:42:34,180
to then make corrections and fix as you continue to practice and do that sort of thing.

717
00:42:34,180 –> 00:42:39,080
So all the more reason to keep practicing and if you’re in an environment where people

718
00:42:39,080 –> 00:42:42,060
understand where you’re coming from and they’re not going to think that you’re stupid because

719
00:42:42,060 –> 00:42:45,180
you’re learning, that creates a safe space for you.

720
00:42:45,180 –> 00:42:49,740
I guess my last question then is what hopes do you have for the future of the study of

721
00:42:49,740 –> 00:42:54,220
linguistics and or the language learning space for black folks specifically?

722
00:42:54,220 –> 00:42:56,940
Honestly, I want more black people in linguistics.

723
00:42:56,940 –> 00:43:01,580
I think the hard truth about linguistics is like, we don’t have a good PR team to say,

724
00:43:01,580 –> 00:43:03,380
like, you should study linguistics.

725
00:43:03,380 –> 00:43:05,940
Here’s what linguistics can offer you.

726
00:43:05,940 –> 00:43:11,660
It’s not the same thing as psychology or business because people don’t see a career path, quote

727
00:43:11,660 –> 00:43:15,180
unquote, through linguistics in the same way.

728
00:43:15,180 –> 00:43:20,220
But I think that’s also the beauty of linguistics is that you have the opportunity to create

729
00:43:20,220 –> 00:43:25,220
the kind of career you want because at the end of the day, any career you choose, any

730
00:43:25,220 –> 00:43:28,060
path you walk, language is going to be involved in it.

731
00:43:28,060 –> 00:43:34,700
You can’t exist in this world as a human and be functioning in society without language.

732
00:43:34,700 –> 00:43:36,620
It just doesn’t work that way.

733
00:43:36,620 –> 00:43:41,160
And this is why we tell people if your child is born deaf or your child is born blind,

734
00:43:41,160 –> 00:43:43,820
it doesn’t mean you don’t introduce language.

735
00:43:43,820 –> 00:43:48,180
You just find a modality that works for them and then you use language with them because

736
00:43:48,180 –> 00:43:53,300
that’s how they will still be able to have that kind of human experience that we all

737
00:43:53,300 –> 00:43:56,460
actually, I think, internally want and need.

738
00:43:56,460 –> 00:44:02,820
So as black people, I think sometimes we see gatekeeping and we think, oh, it’s going to

739
00:44:02,820 –> 00:44:03,820
be so hard.

740
00:44:03,820 –> 00:44:05,260
It’s going to be this uphill battle.

741
00:44:05,260 –> 00:44:08,460
I don’t want to be a part of something where it’s going to be an uphill battle.

742
00:44:08,460 –> 00:44:12,780
And I don’t know what my career outcome could be with it.

743
00:44:12,780 –> 00:44:18,500
And that’s the unfortunate part because I think sometimes we need also as black people,

744
00:44:18,500 –> 00:44:25,020
a little bit of grace to just figure things out and not have to feel like we need to strive

745
00:44:25,020 –> 00:44:30,460
towards some version of ourselves that is considered acceptable either in the white

746
00:44:30,460 –> 00:44:36,100
gaze or in the black gaze, because those gazes are both of them come with pressure in my

747
00:44:36,100 –> 00:44:37,100
mind.

748
00:44:37,100 –> 00:44:40,860
So yeah, I think for me, I would love to see more black linguists.

749
00:44:40,860 –> 00:44:45,900
And in particular, I want to see more black linguists go into the various different subfields.

750
00:44:45,900 –> 00:44:50,980
So a lot of black linguists typically stay within sociolinguistics, which is great, which

751
00:44:50,980 –> 00:44:57,260
is studying how languages are used among communities and where we see a lot of variation and change

752
00:44:57,260 –> 00:45:01,920
with language that happens from language existing in communities.

753
00:45:01,920 –> 00:45:03,680
And that work is important.

754
00:45:03,680 –> 00:45:08,220
But that work is only as good as our ability to then say, OK, what does that then mean

755
00:45:08,220 –> 00:45:13,040
for the brain and people doing the cognitive neuroscience aspect of that, or people going

756
00:45:13,040 –> 00:45:19,060
into the more theoretical subfields and saying, no, if black English is as legitimate as any

757
00:45:19,060 –> 00:45:23,900
other language, then why don’t we use this language to test some of these theories or

758
00:45:23,900 –> 00:45:28,980
models within, let’s say, phonology, which is about structuring speech sounds or syntax,

759
00:45:28,980 –> 00:45:32,300
which is about how words are structured into sentences.

760
00:45:32,300 –> 00:45:35,180
We need people to be in those spaces, too.

761
00:45:35,180 –> 00:45:38,380
And we need black linguists in computational linguistics.

762
00:45:38,380 –> 00:45:43,700
So if you really want to worry about job situation, job security, and you’re like, I’ll do whatever

763
00:45:43,700 –> 00:45:46,700
pays money, become a computational linguist.

764
00:45:46,700 –> 00:45:51,340
Because if I hear another tech company coming through with this job offer, like, we need

765
00:45:51,340 –> 00:45:59,020
somebody who can help us get AI, human interfacing technology to work, so getting Siri to work,

766
00:45:59,020 –> 00:46:03,820
getting Alexa to work, and best believe, Siri and Alexa does not like black Sarah voice.

767
00:46:03,820 –> 00:46:07,660
I got put on WASPY Sarah voice for Siri to work.

768
00:46:07,660 –> 00:46:12,340
Well, we need more black linguists who can do that work and make sure our technology

769
00:46:12,340 –> 00:46:14,740
is also inclusive of us, too.

770
00:46:14,740 –> 00:46:17,420
And that actually requires linguists.

771
00:46:17,420 –> 00:46:19,500
Another thing, speech language pathologists.

772
00:46:19,500 –> 00:46:24,200
Here’s another career field that we desperately need black people in, and a linguistics training

773
00:46:24,200 –> 00:46:30,220
will help you get there, because I’m collaborating with a black speech language pathologist who

774
00:46:30,220 –> 00:46:32,740
also is now a neuroscientist.

775
00:46:32,740 –> 00:46:39,580
She got her PhD because there was not enough research on speech language pathology concerning

776
00:46:39,580 –> 00:46:40,580
black people.

777
00:46:40,580 –> 00:46:44,600
And she was like, well, I guess let me go do this PhD so I can do that research because

778
00:46:44,600 –> 00:46:47,460
we need that so desperately.

779
00:46:47,460 –> 00:46:51,940
And there’s always a demand for speech language pathologists, whether it’s working with children,

780
00:46:51,940 –> 00:46:57,260
but in particular, working with adults, in particular, given the fact that stroke and

781
00:46:57,260 –> 00:47:03,320
heart attack is so prevalent in black and brown communities, like stroke disproportionately

782
00:47:03,320 –> 00:47:04,780
affects black people.

783
00:47:04,780 –> 00:47:10,580
And so from that, there’s now a greater proportion or probability of black people who suffer from

784
00:47:10,580 –> 00:47:12,780
stroke developing chronic aphasia.

785
00:47:12,780 –> 00:47:19,020
And yet we don’t have enough SLPs, let alone black SLPs, to support these people and helping

786
00:47:19,020 –> 00:47:24,260
them regain some quality of life should they survive a stroke, which is basically where

787
00:47:24,260 –> 00:47:27,980
part of your brain cannot get oxygen that it needed to function.

788
00:47:27,980 –> 00:47:29,540
And that’s very scary.

789
00:47:29,540 –> 00:47:34,520
So I think if we can get more black people in linguistics and go into these different

790
00:47:34,520 –> 00:47:42,740
fields and introduce other people, despite what gatekeeping they see, to what that means

791
00:47:42,740 –> 00:47:49,100
and be willing to do that work because it is exhausting, it is very much an uphill battle

792
00:47:49,100 –> 00:47:50,100
still.

793
00:47:50,100 –> 00:47:56,660
It is worth it because it can have very direct consequences for us as people in general,

794
00:47:56,660 –> 00:47:59,300
not just black people, but for people in general.

795
00:47:59,300 –> 00:48:00,300
And we need that.

796
00:48:00,300 –> 00:48:01,900
We so desperately need that.

797
00:48:01,900 –> 00:48:07,820
Your words make me feel hopeful that this future can exist because it sounds so needed

798
00:48:07,820 –> 00:48:11,140
and that you can even if you don’t know anything about linguistics, like I’m sure a lot of

799
00:48:11,140 –> 00:48:15,020
listeners at home, you see these effects in day to day life, right?

800
00:48:15,020 –> 00:48:20,340
Linguistics sounds like this far off, like, oh, that seems like real dense academic, whatever

801
00:48:20,340 –> 00:48:21,340
people may think.

802
00:48:21,340 –> 00:48:24,740
But this affects your day to day life talking about speech pathologists.

803
00:48:24,740 –> 00:48:28,140
And I didn’t even know about computational linguistics.

804
00:48:28,140 –> 00:48:29,140
That’s wild.

805
00:48:29,140 –> 00:48:33,380
And it’s not something I would have thought about exactly, except that I know if I’m using

806
00:48:33,380 –> 00:48:37,500
voice to whatever Siri Alexa, those types of programs, I know that I have to speak in

807
00:48:37,500 –> 00:48:41,580
a very certain way in order to make sure it understands what I’m asking.

808
00:48:41,580 –> 00:48:42,660
And how did I learn that?

809
00:48:42,660 –> 00:48:43,660
Why is that the case?

810
00:48:43,660 –> 00:48:45,460
Like these are that is so fascinating.

811
00:48:45,460 –> 00:48:50,060
I too hope that more people become interested in the field and just check it out.

812
00:48:50,060 –> 00:48:51,780
If you’re listening, I employ you.

813
00:48:51,780 –> 00:48:52,780
Just check it out.

814
00:48:52,780 –> 00:48:53,780
See if it’s for you.

815
00:48:53,780 –> 00:48:56,020
I mean, like Sarah said, you are a math and science person.

816
00:48:56,020 –> 00:48:59,020
You didn’t know that this field was going to be open to you.

817
00:48:59,020 –> 00:49:01,100
And yet here you are.

818
00:49:01,100 –> 00:49:02,580
Now I have a whole doctor in it.

819
00:49:02,580 –> 00:49:03,580
It’s wild.

820
00:49:03,580 –> 00:49:05,180
Who would have thought, right?

821
00:49:05,180 –> 00:49:08,620
Again, this is just a nerdy interest of mine.

822
00:49:08,620 –> 00:49:10,020
I’m so fascinated by it.

823
00:49:10,020 –> 00:49:12,620
I learned so much just in this talk alone.

824
00:49:12,620 –> 00:49:17,620
So if y’all have questions for Sarah or just questions about linguistics in general, please

825
00:49:17,620 –> 00:49:20,460
let us know because I will definitely pass them on to Sarah.

826
00:49:20,460 –> 00:49:23,620
And if we get enough, yeah, maybe we’ll have to do a part two.

827
00:49:23,620 –> 00:49:27,060
But until then, thank you so much, Sarah, for coming on.

828
00:49:27,060 –> 00:49:28,900
Tell the good folks where they can find you.

829
00:49:28,900 –> 00:49:35,300
You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, even though that might become a dumpster fire if

830
00:49:35,300 –> 00:49:41,420
it’s not already one, and TikTok, all three social media platforms as saralinguist.

831
00:49:41,420 –> 00:49:45,140
So that’s S-A-R-A-H-L-I-N-G-U-I-S-T.

832
00:49:45,140 –> 00:49:47,780
You can find me on social media.

833
00:49:47,780 –> 00:49:49,420
Try to be consistent about content.

834
00:49:49,420 –> 00:49:52,100
But I also keep my social media accessible.

835
00:49:52,100 –> 00:49:55,980
So if you send me a message or DM, as long as it’s appropriate, I don’t mind responding

836
00:49:55,980 –> 00:49:57,500
and being as helpful as I can.

837
00:49:57,500 –> 00:49:58,500
Well, great.

838
00:49:58,500 –> 00:49:59,840
Thank you everyone for joining me.

839
00:49:59,840 –> 00:50:01,580
And thank you all so much for listening.

840
00:50:01,580 –> 00:50:05,100
I’m curious if you all have questions or if you’re learning any languages.

841
00:50:05,100 –> 00:50:08,300
Have you wanted to learn a language but couldn’t for one reason or the other?

842
00:50:08,300 –> 00:50:12,220
You can let me know at Culture X Podcast on Twitter or IG.

843
00:50:12,220 –> 00:50:15,740
And you can join us next week where we will be joined by Sheila, the band.

844
00:50:15,740 –> 00:50:37,740
And until then, keep it chill and keep it nerdy.