[8] The Coalition Power of BTS ARMY feat. Grace of joonsmelanindrop

In this episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews Grace of @joonsmelanindrop! We discuss finding connection and building coalition in K-pop fandom, the power of ARMY, fan culpability, the machine of HYBE and the K-pop industry, and more! Who is your BTS bias?

 

Song recommendations:

“⁠Paradise⁠” by BTS

“⁠Black Swan⁠” by BTS

“⁠Haegeum⁠” by Agust D

 

Definitions:

Bias – your favorite member of a group

Lookism – discriminatory treatment of people who are considered physically unattractive

OT7 – “one true seven” meaning all seven BTS members

Sasaeng – an obsessive fan who stalks or engages in other harassing behavior constituting an invasion of the privacy of Korean public figures

 

Other things discussed in this episode:

• ⁠TIME for Kids – The BTS Effect “Fan Favorites”⁠ by Connie Gibbs
• ⁠Fandom Forward⁠

 

Guest

This episode’s guest, is Grace from joonsmelanindrop! You can find her here: ⁠Instagram⁠

 

Find us online:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Patreon⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

 

Credits

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia ⁠Personal Twitter⁠ | ⁠Personal Instagram⁠ | ⁠Personal Site⁠

 

About Culture by Culture

Culture by Culture is a multidimensional podcast exploration into Black and Asian pop-cultural ties. Part sociology, history, and pop-culture podcast, it covers everything from deep-dives into our favorite gateway media, interviews with experts to help guide us through our historical and current cultural connections, and conversations with fellow nerds digging into our cultural identities and our pop-cultural interests.

Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

Delia
Hey there, welcome to culture by culture, a multi dimensional exploration of Black and Asian pop cultural ties. I’m your army house, Delia. And today is another episode of our coalition miniseries. I’m so excited. Joining me today is the creator of joonsmelanindrop an account on Instagram. It’s great. Y’all should check it out. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll talk about it. Grace. Hi, Grace.

Grace
Hi, how are you?

Delia
Very good. Please tell the listeners a bit about yourself and what it is that you do.

Grace
My name is Grace. I am an Army. During the ‘Be’ era, I guess my account joonsmelanindrop is really about thinking critically about K-pop. And the fandom I think it’s easy to kind of idolize these idols and like see no faults in them. But I think there’s also a lot of things that we need to think about and challenge within K-pop because it’s very multi layered. And I think it’s just more than the idols the fandom also creates content and fuels a lot of the work that you know, these idols do so yeah, I think us being in the conversation is always important.

Delia
Yeah, I was talking to a friend the other day about that actually, we were having conversation, they’re not into K-pop just trying to explain like, how the fandom itself is as much of a machine for lack of a better word as the industry that kind of operates independently, but also in conjunction with the industry.

Grace
Exactly. Yeah.

Delia
And I want to give a shout out to, the way I found your page was through btsabolitionmemes, I had found them a while back. And I was like, Look, I’m looking for someone to talk on this podcast and some accounts to follow because I know this exists because my a little bit about my journey. I don’t think I’ve talked a lot about it in K-pop is like, I’ve been a K-pop fan from probably 2018 I think BTS was first. I’m Army Hello, I’m not out here faking just for the podcast. Yeah, I got real deep into it. When I finally got into my ult. group, which I don’t tell people what my ult. group is because we are equal opportunity here. I’m not trying to single out anyone. But the fandom space was not the healthiest for me personally, and it could be that way sometimes. So I knew that accounts like yours existed for my time, but had been like a year and a half or so. And couldn’t find anything. Because a lot of times you’ll see in K-pop. And people come and go for similar reasons often, like, oh, their real life gets busy, or their mental health is kind of suffering because of like, some of the stuff that goes on or sometimes you know, it’s just like it’s a phase and that’s fine. So yeah, I had to ask around, so shout out to btsabolitionmemes, because not only did she give me your information, but she linked a bunch of great accounts. I’ll share them either in the show notes or online on socials. Because there’s a lot of cool people out there. And we’ll get into all that. So you talked a bit briefly about it. You got into K-pop around 2020 What was it that drew you into K-pop? Was it just like a quarantine thing? Or what was it?

Grace
I think it was kind of both so it was my first semester in grad school. And

Delia
Oh man.

Grace
Yeah, in 2020. Yeah, it was it was rough. I don’t know why I did that to myself. But yeah, it was just really isolating and just a tough time. And it actually came about because I was working on a story with my friend about BTS ARMY, but it didn’t really pan out. I guess when I was like really going through it. I kind of like looked more into BTS looked into their music and I think what really drew me to them was their variety show ‘Run BTS!’

Delia
Oh, man. Oh, yes. The variety shows, get into them.

Grace
No, yeah, it’s definitely really nice for fans to kind of get to know their artists out of the music and see how chaotic they are. And like, I think what I appreciate that BTS is kind of their relationship with each other and kind of how they show though much love and compassion, but like, also challenge each other in different ways as well. So that really brought me into the fandom. I’ve been ARMY ever since. It’s funny how when hyper fixation kind of leads you full blown into the army, but

Delia
Oh, for sure.

Grace
I’m glad that I discovered them when I did because it was just a really hard time I was actually contemplating putting grad school and quarantine was just really rough and just not really finding any sorts of connections. So I started just posting about BTS on like, my personal main account. And then I started making army friends through there and yeah, it just kind of blew up at that moment.

Delia
It’s so beautiful to me. And again, we’ll talk a little bit more about it. I don’t know that people on the outside of K-pop realize what K-pop in general but especially army and BTS, like the power that they have and like the positive effects they’re having in the world but also just an individual’s lives, like the fact that that helped you get through that year or however long that quarantine was for you of grad school, and you’re still out here doing it rather than quitting like that’s beautiful, you know?

Grace
Yeah, I’ve never been so hyper fixated on something for this long. Like it’s already been three years. They’ve really given me a lot in terms of wanting to be a better person wanting, to build the relationships that kind of simulate what they have, as a group, wanting to empower others and inspire others, honestly, they gave me a path to appreciate more of myself. And for that I’m always grateful.

Delia
That’s so lovely to hear. I wish it didn’t take these apps coming from across the sea for Westerners specifically to have this opportunity because it doesn’t really exist in our media or our music landscape in an authentic way, or at least in a way that feels authentic. I know we could have the conversation about like, how authentic are K-pop idols, et cetera, et cetera, but in a way that feels authentic? I don’t think it really exists and hasn’t like I grew up in the Backstreet Boys NSYNC era, and like, you weren’t getting that from them, which is fine. But I think there’s something that’s so powerful from seeing these like authentic connections that some idol groups form again, not all of them, you know, it’s an industry of course, but especially groups like BTS, I was wondering what the catalyst of so you were having this experience in quarantine, of, you know, having a hard time in grad school. So sorry, that’s, that sounds real rough and you come to BTS. I wonder what the catalyst then was for you to create joonsmelanindrop.

Grace
Okay, so this account went through various iterations. Okay, because like, I think when you create a stand account, like you kind of have to have a niche or like something that kind of differentiates yourself from other standing counts. And I really didn’t know what that was, at first. BTS really focuses on self love and self compassion. So I thought I was gonna do that for a bit. Then I started making more like abolitionist memes. And then that fence waded into me kind of writing more, because that’s kind of where my strengths is, and kind of writing critically about things like I have a background in like social justice and abolitionist frameworks, and just kind of delving deeper into topics providing a lot of nuance on you know, the fandom and I think from there, it really grew, I just kind of shared my takes on the K-pop fandom, because I think we as fans kind of really idolized them, but we also have to think about how it is also an industry that kind of beings, you know, this perceived intimacy, also thinking about how they can modify their idols for us to kind of buy more things or to kind of build up this industry. I mean, BTS itself made Big Hit and HYBE exponentially grow.

Delia
Oh, for sure.

Grace
And that’s definitely comes from the faithfulness and like, really impacts of the ARMY and like making them become who they are, especially in this moment.

Delia
Yeah, I think it cannot be understated how how much of a juggernaut in the like in the music landscape, but especially in the Korean economy, like they are massive. And that yes, like you said, is due to the faithfulness of their fans. But again, also trying to balance that understanding of like, this is I don’t want to like harshly read as well, but it is manufactured intimacy in service to capitalism on hyperdrive, like it is this really extreme. And that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy your idols. It doesn’t mean you can’t feel this connection, like by all means, yes. Because you talked about what it’s done for you. And I know what it’s done in my life and other’s lives, like what these people and not just BTS like K-pop groups, like both girls, both boys groups, what these people mean to their fans, and I think that can be very powerful, but it is important to contextualize it. And I found at least my time, actively in K-pop fandom, it was difficult to have those conversations. So I wonder what the reception has been like for you and your page in putting these thoughts out there.

Grace
It hasn’t been always positive, out of my page I kind of grew a community that is kind of more open about sharing these things and thinking critically about these issues. Many times I’ve been called an anti It’s especially hard being a Black fan.

Delia
Yeah, yeah.

Grace
Because there is a lot of anti-Blackness and K-pop it’s very well known, like, idols dressing up in blackface and wearing like box braids or cornrows, or like, you know, things that would signify Black culture and like not really honoring those that they are taking culture from, because K-pop is very Black and comes from like cultural refer themes and music. And what stands out about BTS is that they do kind of give credit. So that’s what I appreciate about them that I haven’t really seen in other K-pop groups. But yeah, it is especially hard being a Black fan, because, you know, you call up these things, and you get a lot of pushback because people are so protective of their idols of not wanting to taint their image when it comes across like very anti black just really kind of pacify the issue when it’s, you know, no, they really should be thinking about these things because they’re representing themselves to a worldwide audience. And if they’re building from a culture that already exists, it’s really important for them to kind of acknowledge and be mindful of the culture that they’re taking from as Black fan it’s just really hard to navigate because you care for these idols and you want them to to be better, you want your idols to, you know, grow. You want your idols to be better people and be more mindful of these things. A lot of my friends are Black ARMY, and we really pour a lot into this industry. And I think we should be, you know, really recognize and have our voices heard, most especially. Especially because this industry in itself has been built from a lot of Black music, rap and hip hop and R&B.

Delia
Absolutely.

Grace
It really has a cultural and like a personal impact.

Delia
Oh, for sure. I was talking about how you were talking about it being anti Black, but it’s also at the same time when talking about when fans are trying to defend their idols basically, at all costs. It’s also extremely infantilizing to the idols which is very often a form of racism that especially east Asian people face, it’s like they’re adults, they can handle criticism. And I’m not saying it feels good. Of course, it doesn’t feel good to get criticized on a wide scale. Like we all know that but nobody is coming up to defend… I don’t know, what are what are some who’s poppin these days? Billie Eilish? like that nobody is trying to like go to bat if she does something wrong to that level, you know, because we all recognize she is a human who could probably understand concepts, you know, and it’s just wild to me that on two axes, fans are purposefully or accidentally who’s to say doing a racism, you know. And it’s very difficult when these things come up to try and have these conversations where it’s like, “Oh, we want to email the company and say, ‘Hey, it’s not cool that this artist is wearing cornrows in this promo, can we like not do that?'” But then you are gonna have the fans who are like, “Leave him alone!” “Leave her alone, she doesn’t know any better.” And it’s like, well, how do we get her to know better than there’s only one way is if we call it out? And then there’s that added layer to the conversation of– personally, my stance often, depending on the individual is that there’s so much responsibility on these industries, like I can understand that a K-pop artist who is newly debuted probably straight out of high school is not going to really have the cultural context all the time to make the right decisions, and they’re going to learn and they’re going to mess up, that’s fine. But these industries, these companies who send their idols out without any sort of training or understanding of a worldwide context and set them up for failure, oh, it gets me every time like it goes all over me. And that’s why I have no problem being like, “No, email the companies. They need to hear about this because they should have known better in the first place, instead of setting up their idols.” It’s not always the idols being set up, sometimes the idols they just be messing up for sure. But when I think of like promotional images, and like fashion choices, those are often at the company’s discretion. So it’s difficult to talk about but I’m really happy to see so many accounts like yours having these conversations with different iterations of the conversations, some of race issues, some around LGBTQIA plus issues, others just, you know, general abolition and things like this, socialists accounts. Like these conversations are happening in fandom spaces through the power of K-pop. But especially the the power of ARMY who is undoubtedly who– Is that controversial? Should I knot say that? I was gonna say, “Who is undoubtedly the largest and most powerful,” but maybe I shouldn’t say that. I don’t know. And so I wonder what it’s been like trying to build, coalition and affect change with other people across fandom, even if it’s just other creators, because I know, maybe listeners who are new to K-pop fandom may not know this, but like, often there are like movements from the fandom to affect change, whether it is like email campaigns like “Hey, this person, you have your idol doing this, that’s not correct.” Or like in 2020, there was a lot of movement around Black Lives Matter. But before that ARMY has always been philanthropic because BTS is philanthropic. My friend actually did the cover story for TIME for Kids. There was a cover story about the BTS Effect and talking about how fans are so philanthropic. But I do wonder what that’s like trying to build those coalitions these days, especially around I feel like people are getting better versed in social issues.

Grace
Yeah. So I guess one of the big campaigns that me and like other ARMY did was last year when they released their anthology, album ‘Proof.’ And one of the songs filter by one of the members, Jimin and one of the writers, or one of the contributors.

Delia
That’s right.

Grace
had multiple counts of sexual assault. And I think what grew out of that was we tried to create like a petition. It was actually really difficult because, you know, copyright law and like all that, and like, trying to take a song off streaming is just, that’s a world that I actually don’t know. I’m not well versed in so eventually, it just became more calling attention to the issue. Let like as a group, we kind of built this ARMY organization called ARMIES Against Silence. And we kind of shared the petition around to kind of raise awareness about this issue and we got quite a bit of signatures and a lot of people shared you know why we as fans as ARMY like want them to take a stand against sexual assault and like these issues because you know, our fandom is largely composed of women and like marginalized gender identities and queer folks, LGBTIA+, and a lot of these issues carry a lot of weight in our community, we’re supporting a group that, you know, promotes self love and like impacts through change. We really want a group to represent those things and hold what they say not just through words, but through action as well. Haven’t really heard back from BTS. I understand why. But I think through that I was able to connect with a lot of ARMY were like more critically minded about social issues and like wanting to build a coalition, we’re already a big community already. What else can we tap into in this fandom that can make people think a little differently about things? You know, we talked about the perceived intimacy or how anti-Blackness occurs in K-pop, ableism, all these issues that are so very real, and so very in our lives, that it doesn’t make sense to separate it from K-pop. Because I know, yeah, it’s definitely presented as more fantasy and like kind of disconnecting from the real world. These are actually real people in a real industry that are like putting up these messages. So why can’t we also contextualize this in light of what’s going on in the world, there’s so much fascism, and like just a lot of things that I think we really need to think more critically about. This fandom isn’t just like very young teenagers, there’s like–

Delia
No.

Grace
It’s very diverse. There’s 20, 30 year old, 40 plus. So many people kind of united around this band. And I think we continue to share our takes on things and make our voices heard around like the exploition of the K-pop industry, like how they’re debuting all these teens really young, and

Delia
It’s so problematic.

Grace
It’s so problematic! And, like, it’s really hard to find a sense of advocacy in those spaces, because it’s very male dominated. You know, we as fans, we can’t just passively listen to songs and like theorize about the lyrics. We can also make a change and how this industry treats its idols and treats it’s fans you know. I think that’s what the beautiful part about it is, we can do so much more. We’re capable of so much more.

Delia
I feel like that’s been the trend and change in K-pop fandom. Pretty much from like BTS’ generation on I see more people engaging critically. Not that I was in fandom. I said, I joined in 2018. But when you look at the fandom in the past, and like how the industry was operating in the past, I think people are just a lot more socially conscious and seeing the power of K-pop and I think that is in large part because of BTS, of course. And I see fans, yeah, engaging more critically in wanting to make changes in fandom but also through fandom in the greater world. Like the petition you were talking about? Sure, maybe nothing changes with the songwriting credits or whatever with that one song. You know, maybe because they don’t want to (hopefully that’s not the case). Maybe just because legally, they can’t. But I think it is important to have those conversations because now they know that fans care about this. So in future when they’re looking at the work that they’re going to do, who is they’re going to work with they know like these are the standards we have to hold, because, unfortunately, capitalist machines are here to make money and unless the you as fans are going to stand up and say like “No, these are the standards we want you to hold or else you don’t get the money.” That’s the only thing that’s gonna keep them from doing the things they do. Maybe artists input but like even BTS as huge as they are, only have so much input. Like the contracts are what they are. First and foremost, they have to make money. And BTS is some of the most liberated K-pop idols that you’ll find. And even still, like, again, it’s limited what control they have, because, I remember, a lot of people like to talk about– this as an aside. But a lot of people like to talk about, “Oh, well, they own part of the company, yada yada yada,” but like they don’t actually like their shares are negligible. Like any say they have in their careers at this point is just by the grace of HYBE, and from the, you know, respect that they’ve earned in the industry and like the faith that their company can put into them, but they still don’t have freedom to just do whatever. And I think people forget that. In the fandom, but also people don’t realize that on the outside, like they’re huge, but they still are in these contracts that are very predatory, all that stuff. So I really hope that we see in the future that I’m not working with people like that, because also I know that in Korea, that’s– Sexual assault and sexual violence, we’re starting to see movements over there, but like with a lot of pushback. So it’s a whole thing that has so many layers again, and why it’s important to have these conversations. And I think these conversations will be ongoing for a long time and that’s okay, that they are going to take time but I think it’s great that there are people like you and other people in fandom doing that work. I wanted to know what inspires you to speak out on a specific topic when you do write your, would you call them essays? I mean, they’re on socials, but I mean, they’re mini essays I would say.

Grace
Honestly, I spend a lot of time thinking about things about how I relate to K-pop and like issues that come up. And sometimes I kind of bounce off from what other people share like btsabolitionmemes who definitely writes a lot of think pieces about different aspects of the BTS fandom. And I know they talked about how similar to what I said, you know, we have to do more than idolize these idols and like say that we love the seven men. There’s more that we can do. And I think for me, yeah, at first it was kind of like, I know, the fashion industry is a big thing in K-pop, and also how that kind of lends itself to more commodification. And sometimes I would just read articles, you know, journal articles about neoliberalism or like kind of how like, these idols are conditioned to be models for the country, but at the same time, they have to represent this framework of work hard, and you’ll find success when you know, that’s not really the case, especially in Korea, where it’s really hard to find employment, and there’s a structure at place. Instead, you’re kind of thinking about yourself, your personal failure, which is very self deprecating, and it doesn’t get to the place where no, it’s actually workplace exploitation, it’s actually us basically selling our labor to become useful in whatever workforce industry.

Delia
I mean, there’s a reason why mental health in Korea is so bad. Like the statistics are really startling and really concerning that come out of Korea surrounding mental health and things people do because of their negative headspace.

Grace
Yeah, no, definitely the burnout too in K-pop. And I think, because I’ve literally been shared a thing about JK talked about the song that they just released to like, “Oh, I totally forgot about that song. It’s been so long ago,”

Delia
Yes, I saw that post. Yeah, it’s wild, they literally are working so long, and so often, that they can’t remember all the things that they’ve done. And, you know, I really compare it in my mind to— again, if you’re listening, and you’re not really into K-pop fandom, or maybe you just casually like BTS or Blackpink, or whoever, the K-pop industry, the way that they recruit idols and tree idols to me, is very similar to our military here. They like prey on the youth, they offer, like, look at all this stuff that’s going to be taken care of for you, you don’t have to worry about anything, you don’t have to plan. This is going to be your life for the next seven years will feed you, clothe you, house, you, et cetera. And we’re gonna make it really big and be able to take care of your family, like it’s very similar. And in the same way, like they go live in dorms, their whole day is planned and managed by the company. It’s very similar to me. And similarly, they’re going to do so much work, and just so much output constantly over the course of those years. Yeah, they’re not gonna remember all the things that they do, because it’s not the same as artists here. I mean, sometimes there are still like, really bad contracts that exist in America, in the music industry, to be sure. But more often nowadays, like, these are labors of love, you know? Yes, they have, like, contractual obligations, but like they’re writing their songs, they’re singing their songs, like they are very involved in that process. And they’re doing it because on some level, it’s what they love to do, you know?

Grace
No, definitely. It’s just hard to kind of take it in as a fan to see how much they are exploited and even like RM sharing his whole day on. YouTube Like, that’s–

Delia
That was wild.

Grace
That was wild. It’s surveillance honestly, like how much access we have to these idols. And we don’t think about how the K-pop industry feels, you know, toxic fans like sasaengs or like fans that kind of go to their house or like send them things. It really is the industry that pushes needs fans to the extreme because there’s no set barrier of where these idols can not exist as idols.

Delia
I always feel the cognitive dissonance when these idols will have did you have days off not as many as they should, but they do have them and like they’ll go to their hometowns and like the companies will put out statements like, “They’re going home, please, if you see them, leave them alone. This is their personal time, they’re not working,” etc. I always feel this cognitive dissonance like, “Okay, yeah, they said that, but why are you having to say that?” Like, that’s the question that we all need to be asking, you know? Because yeah, there are wild people who will do wild things in service of their fandom that is encouraged by the companies. Like, nobody wants to talk about it, but sasaengs, which for listeners who don’t know are extremely obsessive fans, like stalker level fans who do like really scary things to try and get close to their idols essentially. But yeah, like the companies that curate this environment that allows for that, and it’s easy to point and laugh and be like, “Haha, sasaengs.” But having pages like yours and BTS, abolition memes that say like, “No, it kind of starts with us.” And also is because of the company’s like, you have to check your relationship with your idols here at this point. And we have to have those conversations now. Because saucepans at some point, we’re just normal people.

Grace
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And it kind of goes into the fact that we end up policing each other and like, saying, what constitutes a fan? But yeah, it really does boil back down to the industry. We’re kind of just all witnessing and engaging with it.

Delia
And you know, then you have to analyze like, what is your culpability? You have to have those conversations which are hard to have. But I think important, what has been the most surprising thing to you navigating these conversations in fandom?

Grace
there are definitely fans that definitely don’t want to hear it or feel like cuz I am like taking apart their idol. But more that I’ve heard is just you know fans are like saying like, “Really, thank you for saying this. No one is saying this.” No one is, you know, having this conversation about the surveillance of idols or how we as a fandom are contributing to the exploitation or like commodification of idols. Honestly, I can only think of, you know, a few accounts like mines and btsabolitionmemes that really break down these issues and criticalbtsreader. Like there’s not a lot of us. It’s not surprising, but it’s also like, I wish, what we share, and what we kind of put out in the world is also part of the ARMY universe, because sometimes it feels like you’re so isolated. You’re kind of speaking from a platform and no one’s listening. But there are there definitely are fans that are critically minded.

Delia
I hope in time that changes, but it is something to be said about fandom that as we’ve had this conversation, I’ve had specific instances in my mind, but I’m like, “Oh, I don’t want to make anybody mad by saying that time, this specific idol did this specific thing,” you know. Because it’s hard because you aren’t coming from that place. But it’s been such the norm and K-pop fandom that, to say anything negative is to personally attack your personal favorite idol. And that’s a personal attack on you, you know. But I think that, like you said, I think that changing I think there are a lot of us who were in K-pop fandom, are in K-pop fandom, who’be just quietly been like, “I wish somebody would talk about how weird this is or how bad this is.” And so I think as we see, you know, it’s kind of goes to the conversation about how representation is important. But even in fandom, like if you see people saying the things that you’ve been thinking all along, it makes you braver to say them so I think things will keep trending in this direction. Fingers crossed.

Grace
Yes, I hope so.

Delia
I’m sure it gets hard at times, but I wonder what it is that keeps you in K-pop fandom and in army in general?

Grace
Sometimes I need to take social media breaks. It can be a lot, especially with the push back. I do get a lot of hate DMs sometimes and it’s it’s frustrating. But no, I definitely get more love and I think just the friends that I’ve made through this fandom and like, who I can really relate with and connect with have kind of made this experience much more enjoyable and like pushed me to you know, continue to do this. I feel like I’m more closer with my ARMY friends than like in real life. And yes, BTS has brought us all together, but it’s become a vehicle for us to really identify and like connect and build together and really call out things that aren’t okay. There’s definitely been some form of solidarity there. And BTS has definitely changed in their chapter, too. I do appreciate their solo music. I feel like I’ve learned more about them versus their OT7 songs.

Delia
Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah.

Grace
Like Agust D. And–

Delia
Yes! I was like, “Is she going to say it?”

Grace 
Yes! D-Day is like– Oh my gosh.

Delia
Love. Love. I’m obsessed.

Grace
Yeah, Yoongi is definitely one of my biases. And–

Delia
Same

Grace 
I just appreciate his vulnerability and like how he, you know, confronts capitalism confronts–

Delia 
I love that man.

Grace
Yeah I know. I love him, too. So much. And I know so much in his like, I guess his title track Haegeum, he talks about slaves to capitalism, slaves to like, seeing like how capitalism as a structure like, you know, that’s something that we need to break down. He comes from a background where he definitely struggled, but was able to open up through music, that particular album has been a very, like emotional experience. I identify strongly with that album, as well. They give me strength a lot.

Delia 
And I so agree. Again, he’s one of my biases, so obviously, I am going to be biased. Speaking on it, however, you know, having these solo projects, where all of them are able to have this vulnerability, but especially Yoongi because I find that his vulnerability isn’t in this like… I mean, none of them are, but like his is specifically not packaged or curated in a way that’s meant to be palatable to the listener. I think he’s processing his emotions and what he’s going through in a very real and raw way that is authentic to him. And you can tell is cathartic to him, you know? Yeah. And I think that’s a beautiful thing for fans to see, especially when you talk about his commentary on capitalism coming from his position of power being part of the biggest K-pop group in the world. Which K-pop, again, even if you love it, is a capitalist machine. Like that is.. the power of that! Like, honestly, the fact– some of the stuff he says, I’m like, the fact that he can say that, that’s wild. Yeah, seeing them in their, I don’t know we want to call it, like mature era, if you want to call it that, has been very special, I think, if you are an ARMY fan, especially if you’re an older one. Like the way I got into, I didn’t mention that, the way I got into BTS in the first place. My little sister who were 10 years apart. She’s been ARMY since like, 2014 or something. So like, I’ve always been aware. And then one day, I was just like, “You know what? She loves BTS, and she has good taste, and I know of K-pop and there’s no reason why I don’t like it. I just haven’t spent the time. So let me just watch the BTS videos really quick.” And then I saw the music video for “DNA” and like, my whole world shifted.

Grace
Yes.

Delia
But coming to it as an older person, I think is different than like my little sister who kind of grew up with them. And so seeing them, even though I knew. I’m like “Y’all are my age, I know the experiences you’re having” But that’s not necessarily the stuff they’re putting out. Not say it was childish or anything like that. But just seeing this more mature era that I think aligns more closely with how I imagined being similar in age they’re actually, having lived experiences has been so fun and rewarding. It’s made me more engaged with K-pop fandom in general recently, because like I said, I had to take a step back for all because it’s hard out here. But with that said, well is a lot. What do you wish that folks on the outside understood about K-pop fandom?

Grace
I think that we’re not a monolith. I wish people understood that it’s just more than like us being loyal to seven boys. We have real conversations. Like there’s PhDs in this fandom, like actually doing their dissertations on BTS, and like fan culture and fandom. There’s so many strengths and talents and fandom, that it’s really amazing to see. Yes, people do edits and stuff and memes. But it’s so much more than that. We really are a community of so many different people. And like, yes, we come together for this band. But I think we all bring something different to the table and bring a very diverse set of perspectives. And like we talked about, you know, we hope that the critical thinking minded ARMY like grows to be something much more like I do definitely see that coming. Because I think the outside are like, what they call the locals, they see the fanaticism or the bands like showing up at the airport. But it’s just more than that. We really bring a lot to what K-pop is all about. And we’re not tied or beholden to these industries. We’re actually trying to challenge them, trying to make them you know, be better. I’m not sure if we’ll make, you know, listeners of this podcast more into BTS or K-pop, but like, I hope. I hope so. Like, there’s definitely a really interesting world that exists through this music.

Delia
Yeah, I was gonna say you’re so right about the framing of K-op. And I’m like, people will report on, “Oh, they apparently like organized around Black Lives Matter. It’s wild how these people are so boy, crazy” You can do that. And it’s like, it can be both and you know, like, we’re crazy about these particular boys. But that does not preclude us from doing all the rest of this. The amount of professionals in this space. Why do you think we’re able to organize the way that we do? It’s because we have people who are often professional organizers for nonprofits and their day jobs. We have lawyers, we have PhDs, like you were saying. Like you’re in graduate school. Like there are people– Not that that you– anybody can affect change. You don’t need all of that. But I don’t think that the locals, as you said, understand it is not only just people that you know that are in this fandom. It is every echelon of people that you can think of, exist in this fandom, I think is the thing that I would want people to understand. You go to the doctor’s office, your doctor might be ARMY, like, you literally never know.

Grace
Exactly, exactly. We live complex lives out of the fandom and insight.

Delia
For sure. I remember, this is a different K-pop group, I had a mutual and I found out she had like a husband and kids like we’ve been moots for a while. And I was like, “Oh, I mean, cool.” But like had no idea because again, we live these lives outside of and you just would never know. I do think it’s similar to just bring up Harry Potter because like yikes at what, you know, that woman has done. But I do find it similar how people rallied around and like really inspired by the stories. And then eventually, you see organizations like the HPA, which is now called Fandom Forward for clear reasons. But like organized to affect change, because they were so inspired by those stories. And so I’m hoping that’s the direction K-pop fandom is going and that’s what it seems like to me, like we’re so inspired by the music in some cases with these K-pop groups, and especially the philanthropic efforts of others like BTS, that it inspires you like, you know, what we’re gonna go forth. And I think it’s actually also really similar. You have companies like HYBE who do try and skirt that line of like ethics as far as what they put out sometimes. And the fans being like, “No, BTS wrote songs about this and talked about this, and these are the morals that I’m taking in. So we’re gonna hold you to that standard.” I love that. And I hope it continues. Do you have any other hopes for the future of K-pop fandom?

Grace
Like I really appreciate HYBE released this dynamic pricing and like increasing the ticket sale for concerts, and I appreciate how there’s kind of this new set of organizing that’s happening to kind of push back that extreme iteration of capitalism that this industry capitalizes on. So yeah, it definitely makes me hopeful that this issue and many others will come forth and we already have a set community who can really push back on the things that this industry does, because it’s not always peachy there are times where they really are just waiting fans and

Delia
Oh, for sure.

Grace
We need to, you know, have our voices heard and really put in the work to show that you know, we actually care about these artists and we don’t want people to lose access to them because of cost and because of inaccessibility

Delia
Recently, fairly recently, somebody put out a little mini essay about how these pricing structures that have existed in the past and like how expensive things are and all this stuff encourages sasaengs like by cutting off access. Like “Oh, here’s the intimacy but,” dangling it in front of them like, “Oh but at a cost.” Those are the things we’re talking about we’re saying like these companies it’s curate this environment that creates unsafe conditions for the idols. So yeah, I was really happy with the dynamic pricing I hope things keep turning in this way as far as pricing structures and how these companies think of the fans also. Lastly, because we said we hope people come to listen to BTS or you know, other K-pop groups are cool too but especially BTS. If you are a listener who isn’t into BTS, or just casually aware like you heard Dynamite or whatever. For those fans to try and get them into BTS more, what do you think is one BTS on everyone should have on their playlist?

Grace
Oh so hard.

Delia
Okay, you can do a couple of things you need to do a couple

Grace
I really like, so it’s one of their b-side songs. “Paradise,” and,

Delia
Okay.

Grace
It’s funny because it’s actually a song that’s founded on like Marxist principles and like anti capitalist it’s basically saying like, you don’t have to work more than you have to. But everyone loves “Black Swan.” Like it’s a beautiful song. The choreography is like, gorgeous Jimin is a professional dancer and out dance was that song by far

Delia
For sure. The talent.

Grace
The talent. Let’s just listen to all them honestly. Yeah, like, “Paradise,” “Black Swan.” Yeah.

Delia
Well, that’s all we had before we go, was there anything else that you wish that we had more time for?

Grace
No, I just really enjoyed this. I had so much fun talking about BTS and things I feel like I couldn’t talk about they think about all the time. It’s really cool to kind of share in a podcast form.

Delia
I was also very appreciative to finally have a section to be like, “No, this is the BTS hour. Let’s talk about it!” Because it’s been in spurts, but, you know, I try not to derail. I’m like, “Okay, keep it in. Keep it in.” Well, thank you for joining me so much. Can you please tell the good folks where they can find you and what you’ve got in the works currently in?

Grace
Sure. So my Instagram handle is at joons j-o-o-n-s melanin drop.

Delia
Honestly, I can’t believe I just said joonsmelanindrop. We didn’t even talk about the name. Like can we? The fact that you called it joonsmelanindrop? Well, I die.

Grace
Yeah, I know. So basically named you and the leader of the group has faced a lot of colorism in his trajectory of being entitled like been called like the ugliest member. And I feel like that also bordered towards anti Blackness. And I think as till now, all his photos, the melanin is really shining. And I’m really proud of him. Because before it, he would really like use a lot of filters to kind of downplay his skin tone. And the industry really does whitewash the photos and erase their like natural skin tone. And it’s such a struggle, I think it was more of a appreciation about, “Hey, we need to really appreciate the skin that they’re in.” And it really is beautiful to see idols that are melanated. And like that, in itself is a conversation topic and a backtrack into how perception of beauty in South Korea really need to be talked about. And this look is culture. So yeah, kind of branched out of that in wanting to kind of appreciate his melanin and yeah, but then it just grew up just being a critical stan account.

Delia
No, I’m obsessed. Yeah, I love it. I’m obsessed. Do you have anything in the works that you want people to know about over there?

Grace
I’m thinking about like, this intersection of fashion and K-pop– so I’ve been reading this book I don’t remember the full name was, like anti capitalist form of fashion and I read like a lot of anti capitalist texts and like, try to reference it to K-pop. So that’s usually in the works. Also thinking about sasaeng culture. That’s definitely something that I want to delve deeper into, also.

Delia
From a critical lens not-

Grace
From a critical lens! Like, “No, you should be a sasaeng.” No.

Delia
Oh, well that’s great. Definitely, definitely, definitely go check out her account. I will also either put them in the show notes like I said, or listen more accounts because there is so many incredible people doing this work if I could like spend hours– Maybe a podcast just dedicated to that. I’ll throw that idea if any of y’all want to make a podcast dedicated to that that’d be very very cool. Cuz it’s great work being done over there. If you’re new to K-pop fandom or new to BTS haven’t listened to I urge you to give it a chance because there’s like I said, great work being done over there. But that said, thank you all so much for listening. If you are a BTS fan, I do want to know who’s your bias? Please tell me. You can let me know @culturexpodcast on Twitter or IG. Even if it’s OT7. Like if it’s OT7 I would love to know. But yeah, until next time, keep it chill. Keep a nerdy. Borahae!

Grace
Borahae!