[9] Black Allyship in Print and Beyond feat. Giannina Ong and Sarah Park of Mochi Mag

In the last episode of Culture by Culture’s Coalition Miniseries, Delia interviews Editor-in-Chief, Giannina Ong and Editor, Sarah Park of Mochi Mag! We discuss Mochi Mag’s ‘Black Allyship @ Mochi’ column, meeting folks where they are, political existence, not giving into urgency, and more!

Shout-out to BA@M Editor, Tria Wen who had a big hand in developing the column!

Things discussed in this episode:

• Rohan’s BA@M piece, “⁠Reaching Asian Power: To Build Solidarity, Asian Americans Must Know Ourselves First⁠”
• ⁠“Tolerance” by E.M. Forester⁠
• Giannina’s ‘Elemental’ review, “⁠Get Fired Up For Pixar’s “Elemental”⁠”

 

Guest:

This episode’s guest, is Giannina and Sarah from Mochi Mag! You can find Mochi Mag here:

• ⁠The Black Allyship @ Mochi Column⁠
• ⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

 

Find us online:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Patreon⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

 

Credits:

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia

⁠Personal Twitter⁠ | ⁠Personal Instagram⁠ | ⁠Personal Site⁠

 

About Culture by Culture:

Culture by Culture is a multidimensional podcast exploration into Black and Asian pop-cultural ties. Part sociology, history, and pop-culture podcast, it covers everything from deep-dives into our favorite gateway media, interviews with experts to help guide us through our historical and current cultural connections, and conversations with fellow nerds digging into our cultural identities and our pop-cultural interests. Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

Delia
Welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi dimensional exploration of Black and Asian pop cultural ties. I’m your former high school journalist host, Delia, and today is the final episode of our coalition mini series. Joining me today I’m so excited are the Coeditors of the Black Allyship @ Mochi column for Mochi Mag editor in chief Giannina Ong. And editor Sarah Park. Yay. Hi, y’all.

Both
Hi.

Sarah
Thank you for having us.

Delia
I’m so excited to have y’all. Could you please go ahead and tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you’ll do?

Giannina
Well, I’m Giannina. I am editor in chief at Mochi Magazine. As mentioned. It is definitely a passion project. Mochi Mag is the longest running digital publication for and by Asian American women. We’re all volunteers. So we work really hard to produce the content that we’re producing. And we just hope to get the word out there about, you know what it means to be Asian American and what we should keep our consciousness open to I think, especially when it comes to you know, living in this country. So I think that that’s my gist but I will pass a Sarah.

Sarah
Hi, I’m Sarah. I am one of the editors at Mochi Mag. And by day I work in tech. As Giannina mentioned, we are all volunteers. Mochi is our passion project. And by night I do freelance writing and editing a little bit about me, I am born and raised in New York. And you know, it’s this beautiful multicultural place, of course with its own social and political issues. But I think that has always set the tone for how I approach cross cultural cross racial solidarity, and just working together towards a common goal.

Delia
Very cool. I am so surprised to hear you both say that this is kind of a side project. I mean, I’m not trying to diminish it. It’s just that when you go to Mochi Mag like it’s so… what’s the word? I think it’s very polished. Y’all turn out content, like what I would think a full time digital publication would I would not know that y’all are doing this after hours as a hobby or a passion project in your real life, that you’ll have big jobs and all that stuff. That’s very, very impressive to me. So just want to give you your flowers there. That’s awesome.

Giannina
Thank you. I really appreciate that. I mean, it’s a passion project in that I put so much of myself into it, you know. So hearing that it just makes my heart flutter. But also it’s like, Hey, anybody listening pay us pay us for it. Yeah, we would love to get paid.

Delia
I would love for y’all to get paid. So if y’all are listening, and y’all want to drop a few coins, please, they do fantastic work, which is why they’re here today, because part of that work involves their column Black Allyship @ Mochi. I found this column. I think just in research in general, when I was prepping for the podcast, I didn’t really realize it was a whole column. I wish I could remember what specific article I had seen, but I had bookmarked it and was like, “Oh, this is cool article. I’m going to come back to this.” And then at some point, later on, I realized, “Oh, wow, this is a whole column they’re doing.” This is a continuous column and thing that y’all are pursuing, which I think is very cool. So I wanted to start with, I guess, tell the people what Black Allyship @ Mochi is in your terms and what was the catalyst for creating it?

Giannina
Yeah, I mean, Black Allyship @ Mochi, which we internally call BAM.

Delia
I have been abbreviating it not knowing that

Giannina
We call it BAM, internally is an ongoing project for us. Right, it’s really important that it’s ongoing. And I think it’s important that we don’t position ourselves as experts, right? We are really trying to forge solidarity between Asian Americans, particularly our readers, and you know, the Black community in the fight for racial justice, because our fates are so intertwined. And if we don’t work together in solidarity for one another, and next one, and other than I think that we cause more harm than good. So I think it’s like our little like, I don’t know, just like an endless struggle that we’re like in. I feel like, you know, I don’t want to say that it’s something that we do as an expert at all right. I think, for instance, we did post about Juneteenth, which was just a little bit ago. And as I was rereading our archival article, you know, we use the term slaves. However, we know that, you know, nowadays, it’s really inhumane to call people slaves, you know, the proper term that people have been telling us that they want to be called, or they want their ancestors to be called, are enslaved people, you know, right, enslaved Black people. So I think that even in our column, although we want to educate our community, we are aware of the position that we’re in and that we’re still learning and growing. I think that’s really important.

Sarah
Yeah. And to add on to that, you know, I think especially coming from our communities which are constantly and very much intentionally designed by the white supremacy that’s you know, that we are pitted at against each other in this narrative. And, you know, that is something that we are, you know, aware of, and that we want to address and help educate our own communities, because that’s really where it starts, that that responsibility does fall on us. And that emotional labor does should not fall on Black people. And I think that that is something that we really stress gathering resources for our communities, stressing specific actions, action items, for you know, our readers, and not just being this performative ally, and unsaid, really trying to educate ourselves, you know, and our community members, something that we’re also very aware of is that, you know, as you can see, we’re both East Asian, and that in itself is also a very limited perspective. So, things that we’re constantly learning and constantly trying to work on within ourselves.

Delia
I totally feel that on the flip side of moving in a way of wanting to like, support these communities be a good ally, but also I’m not an expert. So like, acknowledging and just knowing that I’m gonna get stuff wrong, but I think a lot of people get stuck in the like minutia of being scared to get it wrong. And I think there is a responsibility of doing your best and always having the best intentions and going forward with listening and the best information you can put out that you have at the time. But I think the most important thing is just to get out there and try because imagining a world where, oh, what if we get this wrong when we say this wrong? Because we’re not experts wouldn’t mean that you know, the column wouldn’t exist, because you have to start somewhere, right? So I think it’s very cool that you can look back on your work and see the growth that you as an organization have made. But also, I still think I saw the Juneteenth post, which I think originally is from 2020, possibly, that you already posted. And it was a really good post. And I think it’s really needed because these conversations across our communities don’t really happen a lot. I’m curious, though, you know, you are wanting to curate these conversations for both of our communities to come together, especially because like Sarah pointed out white supremacy is always at work trying to pit us against each other. I’m wondering what the community response has been to the column?

Giannina
I think that community response has been great. You know, we’ve met lots of people who believe the same things that we believe which I think sometimes you feel like, Oh, you’re preaching to the choir, but it’s nice to hear that there is people out there who are doing the same work. And I think, you know, you recently talked to Rohan Zhou-Lee. And they are a great friend of Mochi. So I think like connections like that has been wonderful. And you know, really figuring out like, how can we foster those connections? How can we, you know, work together in coalition? How can we, you know, build this movement further, right? I think that there’s that end for me, because I have a master’s in Women’s and Gender Studies. And it was really focused on, you know, ethnic studies, really, because it’s at the intersection of like gender, and race and all these things. And for me, I’ve like, have this like, in me, this activist movement and me, like, how can we further this, but I think that there’s also the part to what we’re trying to do in that we’re called “Black Allyship” and not “Black Coconspirators,” or something like more progressive, because we know where some of our readers are. Right? And I think that, because we know where some of our readers are at, we’ve meet them where they’re at. And I think that they appreciate that. So we’ve heard that, like, you know, “It’s really great to see that you’re helping us talk to our parents about these topics. It’s really great to see that you’re providing perspectives on, you know, what’s going on right now,” especially during like the George Floyd protests, right? So I think, for me, it’s like both ends, right? Like, it’s like, yeah, be an activist move things forward, but also, don’t leave people behind.

Sarah
And to add on to that something that we heard back, not necessarily as feedback, but just a comment from someone who had followed Mochi from when it first started. And they hadn’t mentioned that, you know, mochi is getting really political. And I really sat with that comment and thought, is that a bad thing? You know, maybe we’re not connecting with certain audiences. And I thought about it. And, you know, we talked about it Giannina, and we really decided, you know, what, that’s what it is to be an Asian American person and any kind of marginalized person, because our act of being is political. And we decided to just really lean into that and say, like, yes, we can have fun, of course, and we can, you know, publish these fun pieces, but maybe are easier to read. But at the same time, you know, we want to be a much more socially aware and active community.

Giannina
That’s so funny that you share that because I think it was not foreign to my tenure as editor in chief that we got that comment and they’re like, I was like, “Oh, it’s like Giannina is doing this,” and, “Giannina’s driving this.” I was like, you know, the term Asian Americans wouldn’t come to be if it wasn’t your politics for the need to stand together politically beside black and brown students who were organizing. So I, for me, it’s like, how can you say you’re an Asian American magazine? And not touched on anything? That’s political? Like, that doesn’t make any sense at all. And I think, you know, as editor in chief for me, like we think about defining Asian America, right? What does that mean? Like, it means really leaning into, you know, the politics of it. And I know that there’s lots of movements to disaggregate what it means to be this Asian American and all these things. But we know that now it’s, you know, a political force, right? It’s,

Delia
Yeah, I think that’s really cool that y’all were able to get to the heart of it. Because when I hear comments like that, like, “Oh, that’s so political.” That’s more so what I experienced is people taking issue with like, the socialist undertones of the messaging. Again, I’m looking at this work through a pop cultural lens. But you know, when you look at the history of our solidarity, like historic movements, historic figures, that have worked across these racial lines, that’s been a lot of where they drew their principals from. And to me, when I hear people say that stuff, I feel like they’re trying to speak to something else that they can’t express. And so they’re taking issue with this thing, and kind of missing the message. And you know, it’s cool if you can get that message to them, despite those misgivings they might have but also, like you said, you kind of just have to move forward and spread the message, because the message is the most important part, right? And you meet people where they’re at where you can, and everyone else will get there eventually. Hopefully, that’s that’s what we can help.

Giannina
Yeah, I think that it’s political no matter what, right? Like I review on ‘Elemental,’ the Pixar film, right, and it had strong undertones of the immigrant experience, right? How’s that? Not political, right? So it’s just like, it’s better to be conscious than unconscious of our biases, of the harm that we can create, of, you know, the things that we could do better?

Delia
Yeah, for sure. I feel like a lot of people want to, and for good reason, silo themselves away from these hard topics, because they just want to live their lives. They don’t want to have to think about how they’re being oppressed systematically, and in day to day conversations at work, all this stuff. And like, I totally feel that I feel that that draw did not want to engage with that. But fortunately, or unfortunately, in America, especially to be a marginalized person does thrust you into a political existence, because our whole identities have been politicized. So you can either choose to engage with it or not, but I don’t think it’s fair to be like, Oh, that’s too political. Like, that’s just the soup we’re swimmin’ in. And, you know, so I wanted to know what the process was like, well, especially now that I know that y’all are a volunteer force, what the process was like, of developing the column and how starting a project like that happens?

Giannina
Yeah, definitely. We started under the tenor of the previous Editor in Chief. And actually, we need to shout out to our third co editor, Tria. Trio Wen who, you know, was really a driving force for the creation of this column. I think we really coalesced around the idea that, as an Asian American publication, we needed to say something, you know, in 2020, we needed to say something. And I think that, you know, certain people on staff and leadership didn’t know what to say. And I think that that that can be hard, right? Like you saw so many corporations scrambling, like pull together a message like, but it’s not about, you know, putting together corporate messages about saying something it’s like about, what should we say that will spark action. And I think that that’s what really led to the creation of our column is that we wanted to say things that would hit our readers on a certain way so that they could be like, “Oh, okay, I get the problem. And I know what I can do better.”

Sarah
And it wasn’t easy, by any means to, you know, even come together and agree on, you know, our mission statement, or, you know, our, for lack of a better word like manifesto, because, you know, we’re all different perspectives, we’re all coming from different walks of life, we’re all still very much learning. And I think even agonizing over like, specific words and word choice, you know, and of course, as editors, that’s what we do, right? And we’re three of us are coming together and looking at the same sentence and reading it over and agonizing over Is this the right word? Is this the right term? I don’t think we should use that. You know, let’s let’s use this instead. What do you think of this and really, brainstorming and really discussing these ideas, and that in itself felt very political, right, because we are, you know, actually stopping to think about the impact of a single word on not just our readers in our community, but also other communities as well and how they’re going forth into the world and sharing, you know, our message. And I think, you know, even if it was uncomfortable in those moments at first or even if there continues to be moments that are uncomfortable, I think, right? It’s all about leaning into that discomfort as we’re learning and as we’re, you know, changing what, you know, ideas have been hardwired into our brains by our society. And that, I think, has been a very exciting part of Black Allyship @ Mochi, you know, that place to really come together and discuss these ideas and just grow together?

Delia
How has having the column informed other work at Mochi? Like I imagine because you are both talking about, “We’ve learned a lot along the way through our work as allies or coconspirators with Black people through this column., like has that affected the work across Mochi? Like has it changed the dynamics behind the scenes at all? What does that been like?

Giannina
I think, as I mentioned, Mochi did shift a little bit under my tenor. As I also mentioned, I’m a strong activist. And this comes from a place of, you know, I am a single mom to a disabled toddler. You know, we, we were under the poverty line, when I gave birth to him, I was really young, I know what it’s like to be oppressed by multiple systems, I remember clearly like sitting in– And it’s hard to talk about stuff because they have so much trauma from it. But like, I remember sitting two, maybe three days after giving birth, just like having like postpartum sweats and sitting in a Medicare office trying to file for health insurance for my son, because they don’t let you do it before the child is born. But trying to file for health insurance, because I knew that he had Down syndrome. And we needed to go to multiple doctors in the next few weeks. And I didn’t want to go in without health insurance and just incur, you know, what could have been hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills, but at the same time I needed to go, you know, and just navigating those systems so young, and, like really scared and alone, because I didn’t– like I had my mother, but I didn’t have a partner in it. I didn’t, you know, have a boyfriend or his father in the picture. And I think that, you know, that’s the place that it comes from, that it’s important to do this work of cutting across the board. And I think even before we talked, it was talking to you about the Black maternal health crisis and how that’s really important to me, because I see how these issues, you see people go through it for for their whole lives. You know, like, if you’re black in America, you live a certain life, right? Where, you know, all these systems are creating weathering, creating these circumstances where it’s difficult for you to live your best life. But any one of us could be oppressed by those systems at any moment, and not come out of it. Right. So I think that that’s important to remember is that, you know, I think especially in disability justice, you hear this all the time, you know, it’s the one marginalized group that anybody can become a part of, at any point in their lives. So I think it’s really important for us at mochi to think about, as Asian Americans, are we perpetrating tenants of white supremacy? Are we perpetrating oppression among other people of color? Are we perpetrating harm even against other Asian Americans? Right? There’s, there’s colorism at play, there’s lots of things that play within our own communities. So I mean, that’s where I come from. And that’s where I think that, you know, Mochi has changed. And that’s kind of who we are now. And I say kind of, like, “Oh, it’s kind of who we are now,” because I recognize the work that our founders put into it to make this platform for teenage girls, but it’s also like, platforms need to evolve. So I’m like, that’s kind of how we are now but it sounds like that’s kind of how we are now.

Sarah
Yeah, I and I really do think that it is a testament to Giannina has incredible hard work and dedication to Mochi because she really reads every single piece that goes up and not all EiC’s have the you know, for whatever reason, are able to do that and she, Giannina, is always in there and making sure that we, you know, are aligned in our mission statement to of course, you know, redefine the Asian American experience, but also to be socially aware and to you know, make sure that we are aligned in our voice and that we’re not going to say anything that is harmful to you know, other communities and in our own community as well. And I think that it really truly is because Giannina is in there, you know, reading the pieces and giving feedback to our writers. You know, of course our writers are also on this learning journey. We all are and you know, she is kind of ensuring that the message that we are working on through black ally ship at mochi is also very present in our other pieces, whether it’s entertainment, or, you know, it’s a beauty piece, right, we’re being very socially aware,

Delia
Thank you for sharing your story Giannina. That, I think is going to resonate with a lot of people. And I think that’s what is so compelling to me and so important about this work is that, you know, these forces constantly and also individually at any one time, can be forced against us. And that, in itself is universal experience of the marginalized. And, you know, we’re constantly pitted against each other, but like, we all have some story like that, you know, like, because we live under the framework of white supremacy, like, that’s a traumatic experience, overall, but then we’re experiencing individual traumas, and those inform how we move through our life from there. And I think that’ll resonate with a lot of people. So I really thank you for sharing that. And I think it’s also a story of hope, because I think, you know, when you experience that, especially trauma at the hands of a system, you can feel so hopeless, right? Like, it’s, it’s so hard. And to come through that with any sort of hope or wanting to be active after that. I know, a lot of people who have had lots of trauma at the end of the medical system, racialized trauma at that class disparity, all of that. And a lot of people like just shut that out. So to use that as a catalyst to be like, you know, what we can make this world better, I think, is very inspiring. And I would love that to be the story from our folks. And I think we have to share for that to be a thing for people to feel less shame around their trauma, first and foremost. And also to just know what’s possible, like, we can come together, we can heal together in community, you know, through action, through conversation through just supporting each other. And I would love to see more of that. And I think work like Black Allyship @ Mochi is a great starting point because it allows people to even enter into conversations about what is oppression? Like, what does it look like for other people who don’t look like me. And like, I think you can see your own story reflected in that I find that true of you know, Asian Americans learning about Black history and like actually delving into the stories of black people and vice versa, when Black people actually open themselves up to the ideas of the Asian American plight, because again, we are also told as black people, you know, there’s the model minority myth, there’s a lot of resentment because of like the position Asian Americans, this is very broadly, of course, it depends on the specific community, but the position they’ve been given in our society, when black people have been here, working quite literally for generations in this country, and what they’ve been given back, where was my point going?

Giannina
Thank you for sharing that. I think, though, that I have to say that you and Sarah, both give me too much credit. I think it’s really important to acknowledge that, yeah, my situation really was tough. And I think it was, you know, a couple of years of toughness, but I am very privileged in that I got out of it. Right? Like, it’s funny, because, you know, it was like, one moment of your life. And then like, the next moment, it was okay, in that, like, you know, I found out I was pregnant right after I graduated, you know, suddenly was like, pregnant and working like three part time jobs in order to pay for a house because I couldn’t live with my parents and then gave birth to the baby was really struggling, but then got accepted to grad school on a full ride. You know, like, I think it’s like, it’s funny, because it goes to show my privilege, right? Like, I think–

Delia
Yeah.

Giannina
there was like, it’s not like, oh, it’s like, hopeful and like, oh, I worked hard for it. And all those things. Like, I’m sure I was hopeful. And I sure I did work hard. But I think that there was a certain level of privilege in that. I finished college. You know, I’ve talked to doulas who helped teenagers who don’t even get the chance to go to college, right? Who are in probably the same situation I was, more or less, right. So I finished college, I have that privilege to get me out of that situation anything. For me, that’s actually why it’s so important that I use the privilege that I have, you know, in work like this, right, whether it’s for mochi as a whole, or for the BAM column, the Black Allyship @ Mochi column. You know, I think it’s really important that whatever extra energy I have, and I don’t have a lot of it, because I’m usually chasing my four year old, aside from working my job and doing what you stuff, like I try to put it into causes that, you know, are really important for me to, not to like give back but because like I know what it’s like and I think, you know, there’s that quote from that Aboriginal Australian researcher who said something like, “If you’re not walking with me, then I don’t need your solidarity.” That’s not the exact quote, but it’s something along those lines of like, if you’re not walking the same struggle as I am, and you know, I don’t actually need your help. So I think that that’s really important to keep in mind because I have walked in those shoes. So I want to help those people who are going through it now because it doesn’t need to happen that

Delia
I think two things can be true at once. I think, you know, your story could be a story of hardwork and privilege. And I think that’s also something that people have hard time learning as they go on their journey. They’re like, okay, but I worked hard, and I was hopeful. And I did all these things. And I think it’s a beautiful thing when people can come to understand that and to utilize the privilege that they have, because I had to go on my own journey, being a mixed Black person, like I have a certain level of inherent privilege that way, and learning and understanding that while like, yeah, I’ve had hard things happen. And it’s been a struggle, and like, it hasn’t been easy. But then also, I have this privilege. But once I was able to unpack all of that, it’s like, oh, I have power that I can utilize to help those around me. And I should do that. I wonder if you’ll have any advice for folks who are just now starting to navigate their own journeys of allyship, whether that’s Asian folks trying to be allies to Black people, or vice versa, or just in general?

Sarah
I think just starting with, you know, education. And really, you know, I mean, there’s so many wonderful resources out there covering the history of Asian Americans and Black Americans and everyone in between, and how all of our communities have come together in the past or have been pitted against each other in the past. I think really just educating ourselves and recognizing that, you know, there is this shared history and that there continues to be shared history and nothing happens in a vacuum. I think that’s the first step to, you know, starting this journey of racial solidarity and recognizing that it’s okay to mess up. And as you noted before, right, it’s okay to say the wrong thing, as long as you are willing to learn from that and take accountability, and grow from that. And I think that that’s something that I personally struggle with, because I’m just an anxious person in general, and relatable. You know, sometimes I think maybe there’s no place for my voice in this. Right? And that also comes from like a child of immigrants perspective, where I was always taught like, right, like, what is the expression? Don’t be seen? Don’t be heard or

Giannina
Seen, but not heard?

Sarah
Yeah, seen but not heard! Yes, thank you. Well, for me, it was don’t be seen and don’t be heard. But

Delia
Oh, no.

Sarah
But you know, that kind of mentality of my parents didn’t really speak English very well, growing up and thinking about how they very much trusted teachers and, and other figures of authority to just kind of help me navigate the world. And now we know that, you know, those figures of authority may not have been the right people to trust. Yeah, and just kind of growing from that, you know, recognizing that, there were things that we learned, when we were younger, that we have to unlearn and it’s very uncomfortable process, to unlearn those things. And, you know, it really is just a matter of taking it slow. And so you don’t burn yourself out. But also, you know, making sure that you are not just learning but also taking action items, and, you know, writing to your politicians, you know, attending rallies, you know, writing, if you have social anxiety, and you can’t go out there to rally, you know, using your whatever you have the power to do, to help.

Delia
Do you have anything to add Giannina?

Giannina
I don’t think I have the expertise to give advice to all people right about what could be better, I think, you know, I want to encourage my fellow Asian Americans to not subscribe to white ideals, right? And think about, you know, different ways of raising our children raising the next generation, that don’t adhere to these notions or definitions of success that have been defined for centuries by, you know, white people. I think, for me, you know, staying out of predominantly white spaces, is one of those things that can really help expose, you know, your child to these things from a young age and like can build better people. And I think that you can find that when children are in diverse spaces, that they can teach you things, you know, that they can be like, “Hey, mom!” like, you know, I see this all the time with my son who goes to an inclusive preschool. Right? He’s, he’s one of the only few kids with a disability, and it’s a strongly visible disability. He’s nonverbal yet, you know, but he has friends and I’m sure that they tell their parents about Kato and what they like about him, and then it’s funny because when they meet him, they’re like, “Oh! He has Down syndrome.” You know, like it changes things for that. Right? And I know like Asian parents out there are gonna hate me but like not pushing Ivy schools not pushing private schools. Like public schools! Like all those things that could be really helpful for us to learn about one another, to connect with one another, to find, like joy and happiness in outside of capitalist constructs. I think that that’s really important for Asian Americans. And I think that that’s the way that we build solidarity. And, you know, Rohan wrote about this when a piece for Mochi, but it’s also something that I believed deeply is that in order to move forward, or in this work, you have to know yourself, right? I guess, as a high schooler, I didn’t know myself. I subscribed to white ideals. I wanted to be blonde, I wanted to have blue eyes. You know, I wished I was a white kid. And it’s so painful to say now. Because it’s like, why would I want to be anybody but myself? Because I’m amazing. You know what it’s like back then that was the reality is I wanted to be someone who I was not because society holds this certain ideal, you know, above us. And because I was holding the ideal in my mind. Even I’m did things that were harmful, right, that I shouldn’t have done. And looking back on it. I’m like, yeah, why did I do that? Oh, because I was subscribing to white ideals in a predominantly white space. You know, I think getting out of those spaces can really help, you know, Asian Americans and other people of color to find allegiance with one another. And I guess for white people, like, I think you also need to find yourself, but I can’t tell you how to do that.

Delia
Yeah, yeah. Rohan mentioned that in our episode about you need to find yourself as far as like, where to start with activist work. But I think allyship in general, like you have to know where you’re coming from your background, that includes the harm that you’ve done, and I think hard to accept. But I want to give people I hope through the course of this podcast, you know, the freedom to accept that we’ve all perpetuated white supremacy, like that’s the structure, it is literally indoctrinating you to further the system, even me as a mixed Black person, even Black people, LGBTQIA people, like we are all susceptible to doing it. And even after you learn, and you start to do better, you’re going to slip up and it’s going to happen, and giving yourself freedom to recognize that and recognize that the fact that you have these instincts to do that aren’t your fault, is a great step because then you can go okay, but what is in my control is how I respond, how will my second thought is after my first thought, like these types of things, I think is really important. I think that’s great advice to Asian Americans. But I think you know, anyone trying to do this work in general is a great place to start. The column has been going now for three years? Three and a half, three, three years. What is time? I know calendars, hello.

Giannina
Time after the Pandemic doesn’t count anymore, right? It’s like not a thing.

Delia
It’s not a real thing. That’s wild. It’s been three years. That’s why my brain stuttered a little bit. I was like, three years really? Okay, cool. You’ve covered a lot of topics, you’ve had a lot of great guest contributors. I’m curious, what are some topics you would love to see covered by the column in the future that may be evenly brushed on or things you want to see dive deeper into?

Sarah
I mean, something that I actually messaged you about this the other day, right? There’s always something happening in the news, that and I wish we had the capacity to cover to you know, really, like, write a full in depth article about something that’s happening right now that we can, you know, publish really quickly, we can edit it, we can, you know, get like a great picture for and third up and, you know, get people get our readers active, and have a very specific like, there is this, you know, rally here, let’s go. And that’s something that as we are volunteers, has been a struggle, right? Because we, of course, have to subscribe by capitalism and work day jobs to pay the bills. But that is something that I personally would just love if we could do if we had the capacity to like, really write fast news articles about current events that wouldn’t put a strain on, you know, our staff who are already working so hard. That’s just kind of the general term. But as an example, right, there’s so much happening with ethnic studies in the news, but we have not really gotten a chance to cover in detail. And there’s a lot going on between the Asian American community and Black community where, right we all want to pass ethnic studies, but some groups are maybe, you know, trying to get these bills passed at, you know, all costs and working with maybe not so ideal politicians in order to get that done. But really stressing that, you know, we want more inclusivity and solidarity when thinking about these action items and this is just one topic, right? But so many that I would just love for us to have the capacity to cover

Giannina
Sarah, I think you and I are, we’re thinking the same thing, because I was gonna jump into that, too. So we are definitely aligned on these things, I think, definitely, you know, the passage of Asian American Studies in certain states, which we shall pretend they’re not part of the United States. We can’t turn a blind eye to it, we need to think deeply about, you know, what’s happening in Florida, not just for Asian Americans, Black folks, and, you know, people of color, but also for transgender folks, right? Like, we see so many bills across the nation. And I think that that’s the one thing for me, it’s really important to not just think about racial justice, it’s important to think about, you know, gender justice, it’s important to think about disability, justice, all these frameworks that come together, because I think sometimes, as you see with these groups that Sara is mentioning, when you push your agenda by yourself in a silo, you end up hurting other people, right? And you might be like, “Oh, no, no! I’m really just trying to help my own people, don’t worry,” you actually end up hurting other people. So I think that that’s really important that we aren’t working in silos, we’re working together in coalition with one another. So that, you know, when we push these things forward, it’s not like, you know, African American Studies is bad. And Asian American Studies is now you know, legislated. Like, in what world, does that make sense? You know, when African American Studies is, like, rooted in the core of American history, right? There would be no United States without, you know, the Black people who were, you know, taken from their home countries and put here to like labor for free. Like, I think that that’s really important for us to remember, right. And it’s important to remember that there are parallels in Asian American history, right? So are they not in Asian American history going to talk about the Chinese people who built the railroads, right? Because they’re like, We don’t want, you know, people of color to be mad at white folks. And that’s like, their reasoning behind like, oh, let’s ban, you know, African American Studies. It’s like, so you’re not going to talk about that in Asian American Studies, you’re not going to talk about the ways that Asian Americans have been oppressed by the system. So what kinds of Asian American studies are you? You know, cover? Right, like? That’s the question. I think that, for me, that’s like, a big thing that I really want us to investigate is like, what kinds of Asian Americans are you teaching? I’m gonna teach them about foods that I like to eat, because that’s not usually American Studies. Like that’s great cultural exposure, but you can go eat in some, you know, whenever, right and making light of it. But it’s such a serious thing, right? It’s not just about acceptance, or inclusion, or I even saw this word, it was like, what was it? And it made me kind of mad. It was like tolerance. They were like, We need to teach tolerance.

Delia
Oh, oh.

Giannina
And now I’m down my spiral. So please pull me back.

Delia
There was well, okay, so a few things, I find it helpful to laugh because you can’t just be in the doom and gloom. So you got to laugh sometimes. Because what else are you going to do? So I think it’s fine to not make light of it. But you know, you gotta get the jokes off, as well as talking about serious issues. You know, I’m from Texas originally.

Giannina
Oooh…I’m kidding

Delia
I’m no, I’m not. It’s pretty bad down there, too. And so like, I am a big advocate for remembering, you know, the trans people exist in the south. Black people exist in the south. Like, these are these people’s homes. And so, really having to engage with the hard stuff that’s happening in these places, and having people who are having thoughtful conversations is so important, but at the same time, actually, I think Giannina it was your automatic reply. On your email, it says something about how urgency is a contract of white supremacy. And that blew my mind, I had never thought of that, like, you know, capitalism. Yeah. But just to think of it in those terms. I’m like, that is so true. Like why? Who said that everything has to happen now because I feel that pressure a little bit as a podcaster. Nowhere near as much as I would as print media as a digital magazine like that pressure is very real for y’all. But why don’t we value more so thoughtful conversations, which take time to develop, like, I would love to hear yours and your contributors thoughts on the stuff that’s happening in Florida, and I don’t see why it’s not allowed to take time. It’s fine that it would take time to develop the thoughtful conversation. And I thought, what perspective that I think your readers and I would be very excited to hear even if it’s, you know, a month or two from now, because it’s also an intersection of solidarity in the fact that you’re teaching a whitewashed Asian American history, and not teaching Black history, but it’s even more whitewashed than that because I don’t know that people realize just how intertwined our histories are you really to teach Asian American history, there comes a point in the narrative that you also have to teach Black history because they interweave so much for a time period that it’s wild to me to even suggest. I mean, it’s not well, because it’s Ron DeSantis,

Giannina
He who shall not be named.

Delia
Yeah, exactly. I’m like, normal people would know that. That’s a wild thing to suggest. So I hope that pressure gets relieved over time, I probably won’t. I know, it’s a constant balance. But I hope that, you know, you at least have one reader who is like, we will wait for it. You know?

Giannina
I think our readers, you know, when we have the time capacity and energy to put thought out, will, you know, appreciate what we put out. I think I should also know proper citation I just I don’t believe in not properly citing (citing is not a word). But citing, you know, this idea of like urgency and white supremacy is not mine is actually a really famous scholar Tema Okun’s idea, and there are several tenants of white supremacy that you’d be surprised by actually, so I think, for me, it’s, it’s actually really hard to work against urgency. And because I, I was raised to be a workaholic, I probably also just have it in my blood. But you want to get things done. And you think that what you accomplish is indicative of you being successful invest you being a valuable human being. But what you create in this world, it could take a long time, we know that, for instance, authors, some of my favorite authors, you know, wrote their books for 10 years, right? And it’s not indicative of their day to day value. I think that that’s, again, bringing it back to connectivity, like why it’s important to connect with one another on a relational basis, just because I think that, you know, especially when I’m in the disability justice framework, you know, what you can achieve, shouldn’t be who you are, or how you’re valued for, right? Like, I value my child because he’s my child. And I think he’s such a joy. And it’s funny, because they no other parents think about, like, oh, what kinds of jobs will they do? And that’s like, thinking about what kind of jobs they’ll do, how he will be part of the system. I’m trying to see how he’s gonna break through the system. What can he do that, like, you know, is beyond capitalism, because he doesn’t mean to be part of the system. Right? That’s the interesting thing is like, within all these spaces, there’s spaces to disrupt norms. Right? There’s spaces to move beyond the systems. And I think it’s rare, but you gotta find it. And now, I’m continuing on this tangent, but I’m gonna stop myself.

Delia
Did you have anything that that Sarah?

Sarah
Actually my partner and I often talk about this and, and I realized, I have to unlearn a lot of the things that my parents instilled in me, right? That like, because you’re Asian American, and you have to be two times smarter than everyone else in that room, you have to be you have to work two times harder than everyone else in that room. And it’s something that I just have to unlearn. And my partner is Puerto Rican. And we have the privilege of living in New York City, where I mean, there is a housing crisis. I don’t know how long how much longer we can live in New York City. But we’re born and raised here. So we have seen diversity all around us. But we’re also seeing this insane school system in New York City, that once again pits Asian communities against many other people of color. And it’s a children of color. And like that’s a horrible thing for kids to have to navigate. And these are conversations that we have often have, how do we break through this? How do we give our kids the tools for surviving in the world, in a capitalist society, while also teaching them to dismantle these beliefs? So it’s definitely something that we grapple with? And we shall see.

Delia
It’s an answer, we’re always–all of us–constantly writing, right? You know, what are the solutions? How will we combat and beat these oppressive forces? But I think it’s kind of beautiful that we’re all finding the answer together continuously. And if you’ve ever feel hopeless, in the pursuit of that, I think that’s something that gives me hope is knowing that there are things like like Black Allyship @ Mochi, there are people like Rohan, there are places in fandom like with Grace doing work together to build coalition, and I think you can find a lot of hope in that even when in your personal life, you’re like, “This is really hard.” And that can really help you continue on the path. With that said, 2hat are your hopes for the future of BAM… I feel like I’m so cool. I’m using “BAM.”

Giannina
I think you know, hearing from readers and potentially seeing their journeys. I think this also answers your previous question is something that I would like us to start to, you know, don’t document and hear and like be able to share with our readers because, you know, I think we have high guest contributors. And a lot of the pieces, though have been written by Sarah, Tria, and myself. And you know, we’re very conscious of our journey. And I think we’ve shared it a lot. But I think it’d be interesting to hear from other people, you know what their journeys are. And I think, for instance, like one guest contributor (and Sarah, you’ll know her name because she’s your friend) but she wrote about, like, the Indo Caribbean experience, right. And I think that, within the Asian American experience, there are many ways for us to come to consciousness about what we need to do about the society around us. And, you know, it can be in little and slow ways. And I think that I’m not trying to fault anybody who doesn’t see the issue, because I think that, like Sarah said that they’re surviving. Right? And I don’t think that I think you have a very privileged perspective, if you’re like, everybody should be on board, and everybody can get on board. And it’s easy, because it’s not easy, it’s hard. And it has to be something that you have the space and time and energy to contribute yourself to. And I think that, you know, doesn’t come for you now, it can come for you in later in life. And I know this, because I’ve had lots of talks with my mom about how she understands race as an immigrant, right? Like she immigrated from the Philippines, you know, and what it means to her as she grew older, because she was already an adult when she immigrated, and like, you know, got to know people and understood, like the issues, right? So I don’t think that it’s fair to say that, like, everyone should be doing this now. Like, I think that you need to have the right space and time. And that if you’re surviving right now, that’s okay.

Sarah
Yeah. I think my hope is that we can reach more people who are trying to survive. And sometimes reading a block of text, right, is not necessarily accessible for everyone. You know, maybe they’re coming from their own traumas, and maybe a visual is easier. So I think we are definitely hoping to have more of a multimedia reach, you know, exploring different avenues for sharing bems message and, and connecting with different people in ways that can feel more accessible in a way that it’s not, you know, we’re not coming from a place of judgment. We’re not coming from a place of, again, you have to do this, it all comes from a place of love. It truly does. And it’s a message of love that we have had the privilege to read, you know, other racial educators share and that we also want to help spread.

Delia
You said, “this is a message of love.” And that was something else I was going to say when I said I grew up in Texas we read… it’s super famous. So y’all people are going to definitely let me know what it is. But we–required reading I think my sophomore year English class was talking about some famous white writer, I don’t remember, wrote about how the world needs tolerance, not love. And I remember like, you know, it was an English class, but I was kind of taught with the eye of, “Yeah! We don’t have to love each other, we’d have to tolerate each other.” That’s the answer to society’s ills. And I grew up and realize, okay, that’s a load of baloney. That’s wild that, you know, they tried to teach us that, like, that’s so wild to me. And so to juxtapose we were talking about earlier, than wanting to teach tolerance to you saying that it’s a message of love, like I 100% agree that we need to come from a place of love, because like, that’s what humanity is, I feel like, our capacity to love each other and grow with each other and find community with each other. For the folks at home, if they wanted to get involved, how, how can they go about doing that?

Sarah
Come to our website, we are always looking for guest writers, staff, writers, pitch your stories, pitch your ideas. You know, we’re truly looking for different perspectives to learn from and to help spread the message. So yeah, please, please come to our website and email,

Giannina
black ally ship @ mochi mag dot com. And you’ll get a response from either me or Sarah because again, we’re volunteers. So it really literally will be me or Sarah, again, you know, not subscribing to urgency, you can expect a response between four to six weeks, just need to say that because I know some people are like, “Oh, they didn’t email me back right away within 24 hours.” Oh, yeah. We don’t email people back. I think the other thing I would say though, you know, is that in order for us to share our work, I think it’s really important that like, you know, if you see us and you are like, “Oh, I want to share this on social with, you know, my family or friends,” like tag us so that people know like, where it’s from, and then they can look at everything else that we’ve worked on it That’s really important. Again, proper citations really important for me. And it’s helpful for Mochi.

Delia
For sure, definitely share their work there do great pieces even outside of the BAM column. So if there’s listeners who have background or experiences like submit for wherever you feel you fit, but I, for sure encourage people to do that. Again, I had Rohan as a guest there. I don’t know, are they just a frequent guest contributor or staff writer.

Giannina
Rohan is a dear friends. I feel like whenever they are like, “Hey, I’m thinking of writing something.” It’s like, “Yeah, let’s like work on it together.” Like, “Let me know how I can help you.” You know, So Rohan’s a dear friend, they like they are also learning and growing in their journey. And I appreciate that, right? Because I think for sure, it’s great to work with people who are like, I’m an expert, good for you. You’re an expert, right. But I think you know where we’re at. It’s nice to have somebody to bounce ideas off of, and actually, we’re going to be judging our essay contest together this week, because I’m excited to you know, hear their perspective. And they come from such a different perspective. And I appreciate that.

Delia
For sure. So if y’all liked Rohan’s episode, like what they had to say, definitely go check out their article for BAM, I’ll probably link a few in the show notes. But in general, you can just go to Mochi Mag, and you’ll find all that and more. Before we close out, is there anything you wish we had more time for?

Giannina
Oh, man, I mean, I know you’re–you wanted to talk to us about, you know, Black and Asian, you know, solidarities work movements and stuff like that, I don’t think that I can necessarily talk to the other side of that experience. So today, you know, you’ve heard us talk a lot about our experiences, Asian Americans, and, you know, what we’ve learned? And I think that that’s important to know, right? I think that it’s important that even if you’re like, if I was to call myself a racial justice educator, or expert, that I wouldn’t be doing that alone. Because it doesn’t make sense to me, for me to be talking about racism, when I don’t understand or experience anti Black racism, and in fact, can perpetrate it on a daily basis.

Delia
Yeah.

Giannina
Right? So I think it’s really important for listeners to know who they are, and recognize, I wouldn’t say like their limits, but recognize what their purview is, you know, what they bring to the table, and be okay with that.

Delia
I think that’s important. And then I’ll pass it to you, Sarah, that’s important for people who grew up like me, if you were, you know, that bookish kid, that kid that everybody–the GT kid, really. Like, who you then grew up with the trauma of like, “I have to be the best at everything and smart at everything and like, know everything about everything.” That’s a good thing to highlight that it’s okay to just highlight what you bring to the table and know what you don’t. And that’s fine, you’re not going to be an expert in everything. You can’t speak to everything. And it’s important that you can’t speak to everything, because there are other people who can and will do a better. So for people who grew up like me, I think that’s very much important to highlight and recognize in yourself. And again, that goes to knowing yourself, for sure.

Sarah
Yeah, and for me, I think, coming from an immigrant family background, as well, and, you know, being the person who translates for my parents, not just linguistically, but also culturally, I definitely hope that are Asian Americans who have that ability to speak to their parents in a different language to translate for them people who are bilingual, trilingual, will really take advantage of that, and, you know, help educate our older community members about police brutality, about, you know, the anti Asian hate crimes, and you know, how increased policing will not fix these things, right? And having these conversations with our parents with our, you know, older generations, or even recent immigrants, right, I think that’s so important. And that’s something that I hope, BAM can help provide resources for, because I think that really is something that is very much in conversation very much relevant now. Here in New York as well, right? We have hate crimes every day. And that’s something that is again, pitting different communities against each other in the news. And that’s a narrative that we really want to combat. And I think those of us who can speak to older generations about these things, who are able to do that not all of us are, and that’s okay, maybe not all of us feel safe to do so. But those of us who can I think, really, you know, it’s definitely within our power to try and to help bridge that gap.

Delia
Yeah, if you feel safe to do so and you can do that work, that work alone is so powerful. That person to person interpersonal communication. Because, you know, a lot of people don’t have access to have those conversations, and you can do it with your own family. Well, thank you both so much for joining me. It’s been a really good time really insightful love everything I know had to say. You already told people how they can get involved. But if you could go ahead and tell the good folks in general where they can find you all mochi, your work and what you’ll have coming up.

Giannina
Yeah, definitely you can find us online at our website, which has been mentioned many times at www.MochiMag.com. And you can find us on Instagram @mochimag official and other social media platforms. But I would say Instagram is our main platform at this moment.

Sarah
Like we mentioned before, not all of our actually all of our pieces are inherently political. So you know, if you’re interested, check out our other columns as well. We talk about a lot of other very pressing social issues that affect all communities. You know, even even Giannina’s, wonderful review of elemental check it out. And yeah, definitely give us your feedback. Pitch to us, follow us and we hope to have you join our community.

Delia
Great, I love it. And thank you all so much for joining me on this coalition mini series. I had so much fun planning and speaking with our guests. This was a bit of a test run, but I’m very excited to put more things like it together in the future. Let me know what you think. Did you enjoy it? Did you learn some things you know, whatever the case may be, of course, as always, you can let me know @culturexpodcast on Twitter, again, less of these days or IG. And until next time, keep it to and keep a nerdy!