Episode

July 10 2023

[10] Let’s Talk: Affirmative Action

[10] Let's Talk: Affirmative Action feat. Giannina Ong of Mochi Mag

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In this special episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews Editor-in-Chief, Giannina Ong following the Affirmative Action Supreme Court decision. We have an open conversation about our reactions, how we can move forward, confronting opposing opinions, and more.

Background:

You can read the decision re: “Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President and Fellows of Harvard College” ⁠here⁠.
You can read a timeline of Affirmative Action ⁠here⁠.
⁠Wine n’ Chill (a lawyer)’s reaction to the Court’s decision⁠ giving an overview, history, racial analysis, and a brief dive into the Clarence of it all.

Things discussed in this episode:

⁠Becky with the Bad Grades aka Abigail Fisher⁠
⁠“The Racial Triangulation of Asian Americans”⁠
⁠Harvard legacy admissions statistic from the National Bureau of Economic Research⁠
Berkley study on effects of California’s Affirmative Action ban, ⁠“Affirmative Action, Mismatch, and Economic Mobility After California’s Proposition 209”⁠
NPR article synthesizing study, ⁠“Here’s what happened when affirmative action ended at California public colleges”⁠
53% of Asian Americans who have heard of Affirmative Action think it’s a good thing ⁠Source: Pew Research⁠
⁠Chinese for Affirmative Action⁠
⁠Yuri Kochiyama⁠
⁠Grace Lee Boggs⁠
History on Asian American work toward Affirmative Action, ⁠“Asian Americans Helped Build Affirmative Action. What Happened?”⁠
89.6% of anti-Asian incidents in 2020 were perpetrated by white individuals ⁠Source: Virulent Hate project⁠

Guest

This episode’s guest is Giannina Ong from Mochi Mag! You can find her here:

Mochi Mag – ⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠
Giannina – ⁠Instagram⁠

Find us online:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Patreon⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

Credits:

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia ⁠Personal Twitter⁠ | ⁠Personal Instagram⁠ | ⁠Personal Threads⁠ | ⁠Personal Site⁠

About Culture by Culture:

Culture by Culture is a multidimensional podcast exploration into Black and Asian pop-cultural ties. Part sociology, history, and pop-culture podcast, it covers everything from deep-dives into our favorite gateway media, interviews with experts to help guide us through our historical and current cultural connections, and conversations with fellow nerds digging into our cultural identities and our pop-cultural interests. Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

Delia

Hey there, welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi dimensional exploration of Black and Asian pop cultural ties. I’m your host, Delia. And today is a bit of a different episode. A week ago today actually, at the time of recording, the Supreme Court ruled on the Students for Fair Admissions Inc versus Harvard case effectively overturning Affirmative Action. So, there have been a lot of conversations online on my socials just in general that I’m seeing and I wanted to hold space for it here on the pod and have a conversation. Let’s just talk about it. So joining me to talk about this issue is, you know her and loved her from last week, editor in chief of Mochi Mag, Giannina Ong.

Giannina

Hi, everybody!

Delia

Hi, Giannina. Welcome back.

Giannina

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to talk about this topic. And I think that it’s not what we wanted. But we did see signs, right? We knew this was gonna happen. But I think it’s really important, I think, especially for me as an Asian American that we talk about it.

Delia

Yeah, it’s a hard conversation. I wasn’t necessarily planning on having a space in the podcast. I’m like, “We just finished the coalition series. I want to go back to pop culture.” I think because sometimes the answer to hard things is having a spot where you get the you know, the lightness and you can have fun again. However, even on my socials, (I don’t know what y’all noticed at Mochi) I’ve noticed just a lot of emotions coming out in different ways (some not productive, some productive) just from people that follow me listeners, people who are stumbling onto my stuff. And I’m like, “Okay, this is sitting heavy with a lot of people.” So I feel like, it’s good to just have the conversation, you know? But for starters, I will say that Affirmative Action is not the only thing they turned over last week. So in general, I just want to do a quick vibe check. How are you doing?

Giannina

Oh, yeah, last week was a heavy week. And then it’s interesting to go from last week straight into, you know, Independence Day and try not to know what that, what does that mean for our country? What does that mean to be a citizen of this country? And yeah, I think, again, I myself personally was not surprised, right, we knew that they would do what they would do. But it’s still saddening to see how divisive these things are, and how harmful these things are anything, especially bringing it back to Affirmative Action, you know, how Asian Americans are playing a part in that. And I think that that is especially painful.

Delia

Yeah, I also am not surprised in the least. I remember when it started with Becky with the Bad Grades. If y’all remember her, she was the one that didn’t get into University of Texas. I was going into college at that time in Texas. So I remember seeing this like, “Is this really going to turn into something?” And the longer it went as, Edward Blum, who is the plaintiff in this case, let’s all remember, kept pushing his issue further, and it went up and went up, I was just like, “Oh, this is going to happen.”

Giannina

Who is a white man. Let’s be clear.

Delia

A white man. He is a white man. Let’s be clear. So yeah, I’m disappointed, not surprised. I’m not a big Independence Day, celebrate. Or I think of it as Cookout Day, it’s just a day to get out, eat some food, watch some fireworks. The independence of it all has always been silly. But I digress. When the decision came down, though, I just knew. /You know that feeling in your stomach? Your stomach kind of drops. What concern me more than the actual ramifications of what’s going to happen in college, like of course, that’s important… just knowing the division, it’s going to sow between our communities. It’s so hard to strive for solidarity in the face of white supremacy. It’s hard work, because I get where the emotionality comes from. And when you have people who are like, “Well, Asians shouldn’t be siding with a white man,” or you have Asian people who are like, “Well, Black people should stop committing hate crimes against us[sic],” like it’s misguided. But I understand where the core emotionality is coming from. Because it’s coming from, in my opinion, that feeling of helplessness in the face of oppression, you know? You’re trying to find control by having a bad thing to blame.

Giannina

Yeah.

Delia

And I just knew, it’s gonna get worse because this feels real bad.

Giannina

Yeah, it does feel really bad. And I think that, you know, there are racial scholars who focus on this idea of racial triangulation, right? And how, you know, the Asian Americans are being used as a wedge for white supremacy. And I think that when you explain it to maybe your immigrant parents are, you know, other, you know, more new Asian American. Right, like, I think they don’t understand that. I think that that’s the issue is that they don’t understand that as much as we strive towards white ideals, which we talked about last time a little bit, you know, we’re still going to be set as outcast, right? Even though we might feel like we’re getting closer to this, like, normal or quote, unquote, “the American Dream” that we’re being sold. We’re in the process ostracizing and harming, you know, other people of color, particularly black folks and indigenous folks, right? Because they actually have the lowest rates of admissions. And I think the issue there is that really when Brown v Board of Education was passed. There was no efforts to integrate, right? They said, you know, “separate but equal is not actually equal.” But they didn’t say, “Hey, let’s work to integrate.” And I think that’s what Asian Americans who don’t understand American history, not the way it’s written in the books, because we know right now the books are kind of off, it’s like, I think that they don’t understand that, you know, what was sold as the American Dream, as like a melting pot? It never actually came to fruition. We’re still very much segregated. And it’s like an illusion of equality when what we need to move towards is equity. And that’s what Affirmative Action policies were doing for a long time.

Delia

Yeah, I think for people who might not know, even some Black people who maybe weren’t from the south, like their generations removed from the south, or, you know, Asian American immigrants, or just people who suffered under the hands of our whitewashed public schooling system… My dad is from Texas. He was on my first episode. If you’ve listened, you’ll kind of know his background. But, like, he integrated his high school. He was part of that movement, and it was very much, “We’re just gonna drop them in and wipe our hands of it.” And then very quickly after that those same high schools are no longer the quote unquote, “white” high schools, because white flight happens, and they don’t put any more resources into those schools. And that’s the background people are coming from when they’re going to college. And so it’s not equal, because all the resources leave. And does the government do anything about that? No, they’re like, “Oh, well, we tried. We integrated.” quote, unquote. And that’s that not to mention the trauma that comes from that. That’s a whole separate issue also, as well. So then you’re applying to these schools and that’s what affirmative action has always been trying to correct for. It’s never been a quota system. You know, there’s talks about like whether or not that was going to be effective, but it’s not been a quota system. It’s not been a way for unqualified students to then qualify for these schools. Even if somebody got in through Affirmative Action. But there’s not really a way to measure it in that way. But even if you found a Black student who got it via Affirmative Action, they’re qualified to be there. What affirmative action does, is make sure that Black students, minority students who are qualified are not overlooked, which the systems we currently have do overlook these students on purpose.

Giannina

Yeah. And I think that’s the thing is like, you would never be able to point out the student that got admitted through Affirmative Action, because it is not a quota system, right? Like the Supreme Court had ruled against the quota system in like the 70s, right? Like, a few years after, you know, everybody was like, “We’re gonna start to do Affirmative Action policies immediately.” They really don’t do quotas, right? Like, that’s unconstitutional. And it’s like such a small portion of the application that other policies that are like white affirmative action still get, you know, used and still create an unequal playing field, right? Like whether you’re a legacy student, whether you’re a child of somebody who is a big donor of the school, whether you’re the child of a faculty member, right, I think that, you know, those are all white affirmative action policies that no one is going after, because they continue the status quo of making sure that these are predominantly white institutions.

Delia

Yeah, I think the stat, I will fact check myself and put it in the show notes, but I think the stat is that at Harvard, I think 45% are in some form legacy admissions, and of those 75% of them would not be qualified without the legacy admission process. Like that’s a high number.

Delia

*drum beats* Editing Delia here. I just wanted to go on the record and correct the stat I cited because it wasn’t completely correct. It was worse. I said that 45% of students admitted to Harvard are ALDCs, or basically athletes, legacy admits, Dean’s List, children of faculty. That was incorrect. It’s actually 43% of white admits are ALDC. The stat comes from the National Bureau of Economic Research and a paper they did back in 2019. They also found among admits who are African American, Asian American and Hispanic, the share is less than 16% each of ALDC admits. So a bit worse of a stat than we were originally saying, actually. They did all of this by taking publicly available documents that were presented at trial. So there you go. *drum beats*

Giannina

Oof

Delia

And even if I’m like kind of fudging on the numbers, I know that it’s close, like it is close to that number. It is a staggering amount. And so nobody’s taking issue with that. And it would be hard to, you know, take to the Supreme Court because it’s hard to say literally, it is white affirmative action, even though in practice, that’s what it is. If for years, these schools have been predominantly white, and then you’re saying “Oh, well, you know, your kids can come here. People who are, you know, related to faculty can come here.” If these are historically white, then who are getting the benefits of these legacy admits? White people. But nobody has a problem with that and it’s just makes me really sad, too. Like I understand people, other minorities, reacted in anger knowing that there are Asian Americans who stood by this, who let themselves be used by the system to be part of this case. Again, Asian Americans are not the plaintiff,

Giannina

But no Asian Americans testified. So…

Delia

Yeah. Yeah.

Delia

To be clear.

Giannina

Yes.

Giannina

To be clear.

Delia

Yeah. But I can understand reacting in anger that there are Asian Americans who are like, “Yeah, Black people are keeping us from being able to get spots at these Ivy League’s.” But for me, I just usually feel sad, because I know that these people are just being taken advantage of by the system. Like that’s my honest reaction emotionally.

Giannina

Yeah, I think it’s disappointing as well, for me to know that these like myths around admissions are circulating within Asian American communities. But also, not only just within Asian American communities. You’ll have college counselors that will tell you don’t check the Asian box on applications, right, as if it’s like a true thing. And that that’s not true, right? Like, I think that the fact that there are people who are supposed to be experts in this telling Asian Americans “Don’t check to the Asian box,” continues to perpetrate this issue. And then they, like, say things like Asian Americans have to score higher than other students to get in. And that’s actually like, not the reality in that first of all. Like the SAT is rooted in racism, developed by a eugenicist, right?

Delia

I was about to say, let’s talk about eugenics.

Giannina

Because you know, and then more than that, for me, in California, they haven’t been allowed to do Affirmative Action policies at the state schools are the UCs, the University of Californias, because it was banned in the 90s. So they’re saying that, “Oh, you know, more Asian Americans will get in.” But if you look at it, in California, the population of Filipinos is around a quarter, right? Like, there’s a quarter of all Asian Americans, are Filipino. But only 11%, I think, is like the admission rate to the UC system, right? Whereas I think another quarter of the Asian American population in California is Chinese, you know, but they are 45% of the admit. So it’s like, which Asian Americans are you talking about? Right? Like, I don’t think it’s really fair to say like all Asian Americans. It’s like, very specific.

Delia

And statistically, that aligns with how those groups feel about Affirmative Action.

Giannina

Mhmm

Delia

The Pew Research Center, released, I think last month, an updated (for the data that we had) study about, like how Asian Americans feel about Affirmative Action, or groups in general. But you can look at the Asian American stats and Chinese Americans, by far out of the Asian American groups polled, they like Affirmative Action the least. So I think that’s interesting. It’s like, if you play by white supremacy rules, you did get better returns. And that’s kind of the thing that’s kind of hard, I think, to parse also is knowing that, like, you do get better returns, if you do play by white supremacy is rules. However, it’s having to pull yourself out of that and understand that you could play by the rules, but you will never be seen as equal. You will never achieve equality. The carrot dangling in front of you, you will never get.

Giannina

And, you’re hurting your own people. Because at the end of the day, right, like, I think that this is one thing that happens, is like Asians can usually tell each other apart. Like, “Oh, you look Chinese,” or “You look like this.” But like, anybody else probably can’t tell us apart, right? So you technically, you’re just hurting people who are just like you. You know, you’re just hurting, you know, your own group of people here in the United States. And I think that that’s really sad to not see that there’s power in collectivity, and that there’s power in working together. And that, you know, just because you are able to climb the ladder, and then you’re gonna, like, toss it down afterwards, because you’re like, “No one else should get the opportunities I got, because I work for it.” That doesn’t make sense. And that’s not really the kind of American dream that I think I would want to believe in. And that I hope that, you know, people who come to the United States for, quote, unquote, “a better future,: you know, would participate in.

Delia

And I think we see something similar in the Black community with Black capitalists, which this podcast is not about. But there’s a similar thing where you’ll see Black people get really rich and really successful, and “pull themselves up by their bootstraps,” if you will, and then again, toss the ladder down and kind of like, wag their finger at other Black people who are struggling, not recognizing the luck and privilege that they had along the way to get themselves out of those circumstances. Because the American Dream is based on meritocracy, which is a lie. It’s a lie that, you know, they’ve told us. It makes it seem like, “Oh, the people who are in power deserve this. They’ve earned this.” Like that’s the lie of the American dream and capitalism in general.

Delia

So, all of that said, I do want to cover how maybe we personally parse through our feelings, because, again, I do think there’s validity in the feelings. I think if you feel angry hearing this decision, I think that’s valid. I think if you feel sad, that’s valid. Disappointed? That’s valid. But what do we do with those emotions? Because again, like I said, I’ve seen online a lot of just vitriol and anger. Not always. But this whole time granted, you know I’ve only been doing this for two months, officially, I’ve not this whole time had to delete comments or block people. But I’ve had to do that this week on both sides. Because people are just in their emotions. But I think if I want to be as charitable as I can be, I think they’re just not processing them, or directing that anger and that hurt in ways that I don’t think are productive.

Giannina

And that’s the whole point of them doing this to us, right? Is that they want us to spin in circles rather than, you know, moving forward and continuing the progress that we’ve been making, right? Like, I think that that’s the whole point.

Delia

Exactly. Like, I, when I see that I’m like, you’re just letting them win. I’m not saying you’re wrong to be angry. There’s anger to be had. But who are we angry at? Why? What’s more productive way to move forward? For me, I’ll say like, you know, again, I feel sad. But sadness, I find can be a very isolating feeling and can make you really just want to stop or ignore.

Giannina

Yeah, kind of paralyzing like

Delia

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I’ve tried to really purposefully engage and be, you know, mindful of like, “Okay, I’m going to go and find the Asian Americans who are speaking on this issue, to ground myself in reality.” Because the reality is that most Asian Americans who know about Affirmative Action, support Affirmative Action, and that can help me feel like “Okay, there’s hope. Not everybody’s being taken in by the lie of white supremacy,” like, “Wwhite supremacy is not winning, necessarily.” It’s a battle that they’ve won, not the war, you know?

Giannina

Yeah. I think for me, I’ve been feeling tired, you know? But at the same time, I don’t want to be defensive, because I think that there are Asian Americans who do believe these things, and I want to take accountability for that, right? Like, those are my people. I’m not going to say, “Oh, I’m not like them,” right? Those are my people. And they could be better, they could do better, right? Like you said, I think like the surveys, different surveys come up with different numbers, but one said, like 53% of Asian Americans, you know, support it. And there are literally groups like Chinese for Affirmative Action, you know, that are working towards this. I don’t think it’s fair to necessarily be like, “Oh, this faction of the Asian population we shouldn’t work with or deal with anymore. They’re on the wrong side of this.” I think it’s again, like embracing us as a coalition and saying, “Hey, you know, I know you feel differently. And I understand that this really matters to you.” Because without a college degree, unfortunately, in the United States, it’s very difficult to get by. And for lots of new immigrants, that’s why they came here so that their children could go to a university that would allow them to sit chair, one of the like, three jobs that they wanted lawyer, doctor, you know. Like those ones. It’s like, I get it. But I think that there’s other things in life besides going to school. There’s other things in life, besides going to an Ivy. Which I had mentioned before.

Delia

Yeah, you did.

Giannina

Yeah. I think that even though I’m tired, that’s where I’m putting my energy towards. Talking to other Asian Americans about the myths and like, what are we perpetrating? Right? Because even if it’s not at the Ivys, what does that mean, if the UC system like state schools are, you know, not able to look at race? Right? Like, I think it’s like to even be conscious of it, right? How will we end up presenting ourselves? How will we end up teaching our kids to be to other kids and like, how they want to be as adults. And in that that’s the ramifications are so much greater. And I think it’s something that we need to have deep conversations about. I think there’s a lot of underlying issues that each minority community faces that we also don’t realize the other community is facing, if that makes sense.

Delia

I don’t know that the general American populace understands why Asian Americans push Ivy so hard and push their kids so hard. They don’t have that context. I think also part of it is… not talking at each other, but like going into these spaces and listening not as like intruding, but like, you know, there are content creators who talk about these things. And kind of just learning where everybody’s coming from. And on the other side, learning why Black people are angry. Because I’ve also seen a lot of defensiveness. Again, I also understand it. I would feel defensive to a bunch of people are pointing at me and saying, “Oh, it’s your fault.” I understand where that instinct comes from. But I think if we can work past that, and listen to each other, I think there’s a lot of power in that and can again, ground you because those conversations will be happening outside of the structure of white supremacy. We’re talking about triangulation. Like trying to as much as we can remove ourselves from that framework and have conversations that exists outside of that, and that are working towards something outside of that. I think is very powerful and very helpful. And I think a very fulfilling way to direct your energy.

Delia

Because I don’t know. I find it so validating when I hear stories from other minorities, not even just Asian Americans, but like other minorities, people from different marginalizations. And even though their story is not the same, the context isn’t the same , the particular ways are not oppressed the same. I can see myself in the stories of like how American white supremacy and these capitalist structures oppress these people. And I’m like, “Oh, there’s connection there.” And that I always find gives me energy to do the work and to form those connections.

Giannina

Yeah. And I think even escaping the… well not even, like, I don’t think you can fully escape, you know, white supremacy. But I think, like you said, having conversations, even like the one we’re having now, does disrupt and dismantle a little bit the racial triangulation that is separating us. And that is making it hard for us to work together in coalition and to even listen to one another. Right? I think that that’s a really huge barrier sometimes is like listening, right? Because there’s not enough trust between our communities, especially with the histories between, you know, Black and Asian folks throughout the United States. But they’re also histories of us working together, you know. So I think that that’s really important to highlight because I think, too often they focus on like the LA riots, and then Koreatown. Too often they focus on things like this. And I know that it’s important that people voice their anger, and that they feel that way. And that’s important, but it’s like, no one really talks about the times that we’ve gotten together and work towards things that were really important, right? Like, I think that Yuri Kochiyama is one of my idols in terms of activism. And she does so much by just opening the door and getting into rooms and just listening, right? She didn’t really push her agenda in any way. She just wanted to know and understand what Malcolm X had to say. And then, you know, Grace Lee Boggs, you know, was really entrenched.

Delia

I stan.

Giannina

Yeah. And I think that, you know, we don’t talk much about the work that they did, because people think, “Oh, the work that they did was that they just stood in solidarity.” But even doing that takes energy takes work, right to be like, “Hey, actually, I’m going to use my power politically, socially, to lift and like help this other movement.” You know? That’s a lot of work.

Delia

And to see, also, the importance of it. And it takes a lot of forward thinking and a lot of like, decentering yourself, and a lot of, you know, sometimes maybe it’s right time, right place. But like the internal work that has to be done to be able to do that if you’ve been brought up in this American society with all its ills floating around in your head. Yeah, that alone takes a lot of work. And again, I stan Grace Lee Boggs, also Yuri Kochiyama. Like, there’s a lot of figures in history that we don’t learn about who did a lot of work. There were Asian Americans who did a lot of work towards Affirmative Action. Like in the history of Affirmative Action’s long, so it’s not any one person. But there are figures you can look to who did their little piece to help because, again, historically, we’ve had these coalition’s and this just solidarity, knowing that when one of us comes up, we all come up. And that’s also been very big in Black activist spaces. We’ve long supported other minorities in their movements. And I like to center that in my narrative around this podcast around the social medias. And it’s not because I know some people might take it as, you know, erasing the bad parts. But I think the bad parts just get so much play. Like we’ve talked about them a lot. And not even productively.

Delia

I would like to talk about a little bit about how we center healing in our movement from here because I do think–

Giannina

That’s what I was gonna say. Yeah. It’s like, we talked about it from a white lens, like, “Oh, like, you see, like white reporters, like reminding us of a time when like, this happened,” or, “You know, remember the LA riots?”

Delia

It’s like, Yeah, I do, thank you.

Giannina

Or like, “Oh, did you see like the Black assailant beat the elderly Asian person?” It’s like, okay, but that’s a very white lens of understanding. Because if you actually looked at the perpetrators who are hurting our elders, it’s mostly white men. Right?

Delia

Yep, statistically. I linked that statistic before in one of the episodes, I’ll do it again in the show notes. Statistically, it is why people perpetrating these hate crimes.

Giannina

Yeah.

Delia

But yeah, it is a white lens that it’s partly for the sensationalism of it all. But also just centering, Black and brown trauma and people of color’s is trauma, and just in general, marginalized folks, because this happens across the board. If you’re marginalized in the community, we love to center trauma as just like fun storytimes in our media, and that’s a white supremacist framework. I think there is a way for us to come together and community to acknowledge the hurt that we’ve committed to one another acknowledge the feelings that we’re feeling and work together towards healing and doing that from a place of virtually starting not anger. Not that anger isn’t valid to feel. But like starting from a place that isn’t about trying to one up each other. We’re not trying to get something from each other. We’re trying to heal together I think is the key.

Giannina

Yeah. Restoration.

Delia

Do you have any thoughts about engaging in conversations around Affirmative Action specifically? Like if somebody listening is an Asian American immigrant, they’re like, “Yeah, but my parents,” “Yeah, but my aunts and uncles, they feel this way.” and I can give my thoughts as far as being a Black American. If you have aunts and uncles, people in your family, people in your circle, just in general doesn’t have to be family, I guess.

Giannina

Yeah. I think, unfortunately, I think Asian Americans, like you see this with a lot of minorities, right? Like you feel more comfortable around your own racial group. Right? And I think that that kind of creates like a very narrow vision of what is happening to you. Right? I think that for me, I’ve purposely spent a lot of time not only with Asian Americans, but with people of color so that I know, you know, when I think this, or I’m saying this, or I’m going down this route, what does this mean for them? Right? I’m not just imagining in my head. I will say that, you know, I do enjoy surrounding myself by Asian Americans, because they understand the struggle and where I come from. And there’s just certain things about, like you said, like, even if our story isn’t exactly the same, there’s trends, you feel this resonance, like, “Oh, I belong?” And I feel like, yeah, I don’t need to explain these things to you. When we talk about parents, or it’s like, things like that. It’s like, we’re all like, “Oh, yeah.” Those kinds of areas, you know?

Delia

Yeah.

Giannina

In good and bad ways, right? But I think that one thing is to really look around you and think about who is in your circle? Right? Are you mostly living life with white people and your Asian family and friends? It’s like, okay, you’re getting a very tiny understanding of a way that, you know, not only in the United States, like demographics are but the world works. Because in the world, BIPOC folks are the global majority, not the minority, right? We’re only in a weird place here, where we’re minorities here, but we’re the global majority. So I think it’s important that we surround ourselves with, I hate the word diverse, but just other you know, other people of all kinds, right? Not just about race, but also age. And if you’re older, spend time with younger people. If you are a woman, spend time with other people, other genders. You know, if you’re able bodied, spend time with people who are disabled. I think it’s really important that we shape our perspectives based off of you know, what we understand from other people. And you won’t get that unless you’re actively seeking other perspectives.

Delia

And I will say like that process can in and of itself be a lot of work, as someone who is, I’m also Cherokee. And growing up my circle, and my… my reference for understanding what it is to be Cherokee, Native American, indigenous in America, was based on what my family’s opinions were and what my family knew, and their experience, which has been a very specific experience. And then growing up and then starting to interface with other people from other tribes and just– other younger people, too, because a lot of people, my family are just older, they’re the older generation. Like, I’m the youngest. Well, I guess, my little sister’s the youngest. And realizing like, “Oh, our opinions aren’t the same.” And like, what does that mean? Does that mean I’m wrong? Does that mean, I need to adjust? It’s just taking in that different information changes how you see things. But having such a small worldview, I can relate to. Not even feeling like I was wrong, just realizing there’s so much more, even within this experience that I thought I was having.

Delia

As far as talking to, if you’re a Black listener, and you’re like, “Okay, but how do I talk to my aunties and uncles and whoever who might feel angry at Asian Americans and stuff like that?” I will say that, in my experience, I think sometimes it’s not about changing their mind in the moment. I think this is kind of applicable, even outside of this situation. What I found in having these conversations. Changing their mind is never my goal. It’s to plant the seeds. And you keep tending to that crop, if you will, to the seeds that you sowed. And maybe you don’t even have time to tend to it. But I have seen having conversations that are kind of tough, but doing it from a place of love, first and foremost. And saying, like, “I understand how you’re feeling, but here are the facts.” You know, I have– I was about to say I have Asian American friends– but not like *laughs* Like, if you’ve done the work of listening, you’ve been in these spaces, “and this is what they’re saying. This is how they feel,” and sharing that and sharing the statistics, whatever will get through to them. But again, starting from a place of love, even if in that moment, they’re like, “Yeah, whatever, I don’t care.” Like, I found even in those situations, sometimes months later, sometimes years later, I’ll have a family member, this happened to me multiple times, who have come up to me and been like, “You know what? You know why I changed my mind on this. I remember had this conversation with you back when and that’s what made me start thinking like, ‘Ah, maybe not.'” And so I think don’t go in with the goal of changing someone’s mind go in with the goal of correcting them with love and seeing where that goes. And planting that seed is what I’ve seen work best within my own communities.

Giannina

I absolutely, you know, agree with that. Because I think even for myself, it took time, right? Like I like to say, Oh, I’ve always been like an activist mindset. Yes, I have always been towards an activist mindset, which means like, I’m a little more open minded, right? I was willing to hear things, you know, but honestly, when I think about my own trajectory into racial consciousness, and you know, what I want to see, I think that, as a high schooler I was very sheltered, you know? And I had certain beliefs. And it takes time to change those. You don’t just have one conversation with somebody and you’re like, “Yeah, you know, I shouldn’t be anti-Black anymore.” Like, it’s like, you go, “Wait, I’m being anti-Black? I didn’t know that.” Like, you don’t even know what that word means when you like, first find out that they’re saying these things, right? It’s like, okay, it really takes time for you to be like, “Okay, so, you’re telling me these things? You know, what do you want me to do?” You know, it’s like a slow process. And I think that being patient with, especially the people you love, you know, I think it’s really important. But I think when you interface with anyone who has a view, that is opposing, I think it’s important to see them as a human being see them as somebody that, you know, you don’t want better or worse for them, right? You just want, you know, what every human being in this world deserves. And, you know, just when you’re talking to them, I think that that’s, you know, what you should bring to the table. It’s not about competing with one another. Like, you said like, I think that that’s really important.

Delia

Yeah, I like that, that, “competing with each other.” Because even comes down to like the mental gymnastics we do sometimes with each other, especially when you feel like you’re morally you have the high ground, if you will, in your in these conversations with your bigoted Uncle– this is going beyond Affirmative Action. I’m just saying in general– Like, you know, you have the moral high ground, it’s easy to get really heated and angry. And then it becomes this war of words, and I’ve not found success that route. I totally get if you do get emotional in these conversations. It’s hard. It does take practice. It’s taken a lot of practice on my part to be able to approach these conversations and be like, calm and like, “Okay, why do you think that? I understand,” and it takes a lot of practice, I will say. You can get it wrong a few times. But if you keep practicing it, I think we do a lot of good to the the broader community in solidarity when we’re able to do that. Because I have so many family members who are more racially conscious, who are more open to LGBTQIA ideas, because of the work of the younger generation, like me, my sister and my cousins, who have had these patient conversations. And I think that’s why we often call on, you know, white people like talk to your white family members, because they’re the racist ones. We say that, but it’s true, because a lot of work is done in those interpersonal one on one conversations, I think.

Giannina

Yeah. And I think also, you know, not falling for the trap among BIPOC folks, with the oppression Olympics. Like, “Oh, we have it worse,” or, you know, like, I think that that’s a dangerous trap, right. And that’s where, you know, feelings that are not useful, you know, show up. Like, I think that anger is definitely a useful feeling, right? It tells you something is wrong, right? It tells you that there’s something that you need to work through, or that something is injustice in the world. But I think sometimes when we fall into these traps of like, “Oh, I have it worse off,” you bring up these feelings of trauma, and you’re directing it towards the wrong person or the wrong group of people. And that’s where it’s like, “Oh, they got you,” you know. It’s like, don’t do that.

Delia

That’s such a good way to put it. It really is these feelings of trauma that bubble up. And it’s happens to everybody. Like I’m in an interracial relationship. And we’re very good about talking about our issues, and not one upping each other. But we’ve had had moments just here and there where it has happened, because it’s easy to trigger. Because it is trauma that we experience at the hands of these oppressive forces, right? And having to check that and be like, “Oh, you know what? That’s not what this is about. I’m sorry.” Like, “Let me walk that back.”

Delia

Before we wrap up. Is there anything you wish we had more time for? I know, it was a quick conversation.

Giannina

I think that the one thing I would say is that there’s so many forces of play. Again, not being defensive of Asian Americans who feel like Affirmative Action is unfair. I think that, you know, it’s important that they gain a greater worldview. But I think that there’s so many systems at play, right? There’s like, the testing industrial complex, you know? Which earns, I think a billion dollars a year now, which is insane, right? There is the idea that these predominantly white institutions are trying to protect themselves are trying to keep themselves predominantly white, right? Like, they don’t actually want to reflect the diversity in the United States. You know, they just want to have a little bit of it, right? So maybe it’s like, even as disenfranchising from those. And I know that, you know, a lot of Black people that I know are now being like, “Yeah, that HBCU is my number one choice.” And I’m like, “Yes! Good for you,” you know? I love to have for them because you get to a place and when you’re surrounded by your people, you know, maybe you can just learn and excel more freely without feeling like, “Oh, gonna walk into some racist encounter because I corrected my teacher,” you know? Like, I think that certain things that I think we can think about more, is that there’s just so many systems at play, right? I think, yes. What happened last week with SCOTUS was many things, but it’s not like a giant tower fell. It’s like those were a series of dominoes that we all saw happening. And we all knew what was coming and there were so many things involved, so I don’t think it’s fair to just be like, “Ooh, Affirmative Action. Now we’re in this terrible place.” It’s like the pendulum swings. And right now we’re swinging towards this more racially, quote unquote “blind,” you know? And being racially blind is actually not a good thing, because then you don’t see the diversity among us, you don’t get to celebrate the diversity among us. And I think that that’s really important. And I think we all try to be quote, unquote, “normal,” i.e. white, we lose out on so much of ourselves. And I think our histories and our culture and our traditions, everything we bring with us makes us who we are. And it’s colorful, and it’s amazing.

Delia

Yeah, I think that for people really feeling like this is like you said, a big tower fell, it feels that way. But this is also why it’s important to get involved at the local level, because like you said, it is a series of dominoes that started very small and then build up to something big. So yes, interpersonal conversations, but politically speaking, getting involved in your local politics, supporting your local libraries. We talked about, you know, things in Florida–

Giannina

Like know what your politician stands for, right? Like, we’re just like, “Oh, I’m just gonna vote for the Democrat.” “Mmm, okay.” Like actually, no.

Delia

And if they haven’t said ask them.

Giannina

Yeah.

Delia

You can always ask them. Make them speak to it. Call your Senators. Be in contact. Like these things are so important work, as far as making sure that these big historical moments or things that feel like big historical moments are less likely to happen. Of course, we are fighting a war, if you will. So it’s about the long game. So these things will still happen. But it takes all of us on the ground, doing little pieces that we can.

Delia

However, with that said, the one thing I wanted to add was that it is also valid, to be overwhelmed and need to disengage. Like I want us all to honor, where we are emotionally and be able to know when it’s time to rest and to just disengage. Maybe it’s like, “Okay, I don’t have the energy to work through these emotions right now. I don’t have the energy to engage with this. It’s affecting my day to day life too negatively. I need to focus and be here for my kids. I need to focus on my job. We all exist in the system of capitalism, I’ve got to perform.” I think it’s totally valid to just recognize in yourself like, “You know, I can’t even engage with this in a thoughtful way that this situation need or that is helpful to me.” And just being like, “You know what? I’m going to rest.” I think that’s super valid.

Giannina

Yes. Yes.

Delia

I wouldn’t have had this conversation if I felt like I don’t have the capacity for it. And I don’t think Giannina would, either, hopefully. Hopefully, she doesn’t feel like I bullied her.

Giannina

No! Of course, not.

Delia

Yeah, honor that in yourself. That is also important. Because again, it is the long game. It’s not about these short sprints. It’s about endurance. So take the breaks and take the time that you need. And with that said, I think that’s all we have for you today. Thank you so much, Giannina for making time again.

Giannina

Thank you, you know, I think it’s just really important to have these conversations and like, I know it’s not just going to be one person but if even one person listening to this conversation and thought, “Hey, you know, I have questions about my own perceptions.” That would be amazing. Anything that that’s you know, for those who have the energy and capacity to do that, that’s exactly what we need to do.

Delia

I so agree, I think if even one mind just kind of shifted as a success to me. But before we go go ahead and tell the good folks– I’m sure they listened to the last episode. Right, everyone? You listened to the last episode? But just to case, go ahead and tell the people where to find you.

Giannina

Yeah! Listen to the last episode if you want to learn more about me and Mochi Magazine and Sarah who is also a guest on that episode. But you can find us at mochimag.com. And then you can find us on Instagram mostly @mochimagofficial. And you can find me at @thisisgiannina, if you want to follow me. I don’t know. I post about my child and being a mom a lot–

Delia

Who’s very cute, I saw.

Giannina

–from my activist consciousness lens. So if you want that you can get that there.

Delia

Great. Thank you all so much for listening and engaging so thoughtfully in this conversation. If you have any questions or want to know more, I said it before, but I am including a lot of resources that I found useful in the show notes and any fact checking. I know I said some fact that I said I was gonna fact check. I will. It’ll be in the show notes. You can also drop your questions on @culturexpodcast if it’s question for Giannina or me we’ll get them where they need to go. Or for their questions we don’t know the answers to. I definitely don’t have all the answers but in community we can find the answers. You know, that’s the beautiful thing. If you’re like “Okay, yeah, but I would like some lightness next week,” we are back on that pop cultural intersection wave. So stay tuned. Watch this space. And until next time, keep it chill and keep it nerdy!

July 3 2023

[9] Black Allyship in Print and Beyond

[9] Black Allyship in Print and Beyond feat. Giannina Ong and Sarah Park of Mochi Mag

Listen on...

Watch on YouTube

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In the last episode of Culture by Culture’s Coalition Miniseries, Delia interviews Editor-in-Chief, Giannina Ong and Editor, Sarah Park of Mochi Mag! We discuss Mochi Mag’s ‘Black Allyship @ Mochi’ column, meeting folks where they are, political existence, not giving into urgency, and more!

Shout-out to BA@M Editor, Tria Wen who had a big hand in developing the column!

Things discussed in this episode:

Rohan’s BA@M piece, “⁠Reaching Asian Power: To Build Solidarity, Asian Americans Must Know Ourselves First⁠”
⁠“Tolerance” by E.M. Forester⁠
Giannina’s ‘Elemental’ review, “⁠Get Fired Up For Pixar’s “Elemental”⁠”

Guest:

This episode’s guest, is Giannina and Sarah from Mochi Mag! You can find Mochi Mag here:

Find us online:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Patreon⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

Credits:

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia

⁠Personal Twitter⁠ | ⁠Personal Instagram⁠ | ⁠Personal Site⁠

About Culture by Culture:

Culture by Culture is a multidimensional podcast exploration into Black and Asian pop-cultural ties. Part sociology, history, and pop-culture podcast, it covers everything from deep-dives into our favorite gateway media, interviews with experts to help guide us through our historical and current cultural connections, and conversations with fellow nerds digging into our cultural identities and our pop-cultural interests. Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

Delia
Welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi dimensional exploration of Black and Asian pop cultural ties. I’m your former high school journalist host, Delia, and today is the final episode of our coalition mini series. Joining me today I’m so excited are the Coeditors of the Black Allyship @ Mochi column for Mochi Mag editor in chief Giannina Ong. And editor Sarah Park. Yay. Hi, y’all.

Both
Hi.

Sarah
Thank you for having us.

Delia
I’m so excited to have y’all. Could you please go ahead and tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you’ll do?

Giannina
Well, I’m Giannina. I am editor in chief at Mochi Magazine. As mentioned. It is definitely a passion project. Mochi Mag is the longest running digital publication for and by Asian American women. We’re all volunteers. So we work really hard to produce the content that we’re producing. And we just hope to get the word out there about, you know what it means to be Asian American and what we should keep our consciousness open to I think, especially when it comes to you know, living in this country. So I think that that’s my gist but I will pass a Sarah.

Sarah
Hi, I’m Sarah. I am one of the editors at Mochi Mag. And by day I work in tech. As Giannina mentioned, we are all volunteers. Mochi is our passion project. And by night I do freelance writing and editing a little bit about me, I am born and raised in New York. And you know, it’s this beautiful multicultural place, of course with its own social and political issues. But I think that has always set the tone for how I approach cross cultural cross racial solidarity, and just working together towards a common goal.

Delia
Very cool. I am so surprised to hear you both say that this is kind of a side project. I mean, I’m not trying to diminish it. It’s just that when you go to Mochi Mag like it’s so… what’s the word? I think it’s very polished. Y’all turn out content, like what I would think a full time digital publication would I would not know that y’all are doing this after hours as a hobby or a passion project in your real life, that you’ll have big jobs and all that stuff. That’s very, very impressive to me. So just want to give you your flowers there. That’s awesome.

Giannina
Thank you. I really appreciate that. I mean, it’s a passion project in that I put so much of myself into it, you know. So hearing that it just makes my heart flutter. But also it’s like, Hey, anybody listening pay us pay us for it. Yeah, we would love to get paid.

Delia
I would love for y’all to get paid. So if y’all are listening, and y’all want to drop a few coins, please, they do fantastic work, which is why they’re here today, because part of that work involves their column Black Allyship @ Mochi. I found this column. I think just in research in general, when I was prepping for the podcast, I didn’t really realize it was a whole column. I wish I could remember what specific article I had seen, but I had bookmarked it and was like, “Oh, this is cool article. I’m going to come back to this.” And then at some point, later on, I realized, “Oh, wow, this is a whole column they’re doing.” This is a continuous column and thing that y’all are pursuing, which I think is very cool. So I wanted to start with, I guess, tell the people what Black Allyship @ Mochi is in your terms and what was the catalyst for creating it?

Giannina
Yeah, I mean, Black Allyship @ Mochi, which we internally call BAM.

Delia
I have been abbreviating it not knowing that

Giannina
We call it BAM, internally is an ongoing project for us. Right, it’s really important that it’s ongoing. And I think it’s important that we don’t position ourselves as experts, right? We are really trying to forge solidarity between Asian Americans, particularly our readers, and you know, the Black community in the fight for racial justice, because our fates are so intertwined. And if we don’t work together in solidarity for one another, and next one, and other than I think that we cause more harm than good. So I think it’s like our little like, I don’t know, just like an endless struggle that we’re like in. I feel like, you know, I don’t want to say that it’s something that we do as an expert at all right. I think, for instance, we did post about Juneteenth, which was just a little bit ago. And as I was rereading our archival article, you know, we use the term slaves. However, we know that, you know, nowadays, it’s really inhumane to call people slaves, you know, the proper term that people have been telling us that they want to be called, or they want their ancestors to be called, are enslaved people, you know, right, enslaved Black people. So I think that even in our column, although we want to educate our community, we are aware of the position that we’re in and that we’re still learning and growing. I think that’s really important.

Sarah
Yeah. And to add on to that, you know, I think especially coming from our communities which are constantly and very much intentionally designed by the white supremacy that’s you know, that we are pitted at against each other in this narrative. And, you know, that is something that we are, you know, aware of, and that we want to address and help educate our own communities, because that’s really where it starts, that that responsibility does fall on us. And that emotional labor does should not fall on Black people. And I think that that is something that we really stress gathering resources for our communities, stressing specific actions, action items, for you know, our readers, and not just being this performative ally, and unsaid, really trying to educate ourselves, you know, and our community members, something that we’re also very aware of is that, you know, as you can see, we’re both East Asian, and that in itself is also a very limited perspective. So, things that we’re constantly learning and constantly trying to work on within ourselves.

Delia
I totally feel that on the flip side of moving in a way of wanting to like, support these communities be a good ally, but also I’m not an expert. So like, acknowledging and just knowing that I’m gonna get stuff wrong, but I think a lot of people get stuck in the like minutia of being scared to get it wrong. And I think there is a responsibility of doing your best and always having the best intentions and going forward with listening and the best information you can put out that you have at the time. But I think the most important thing is just to get out there and try because imagining a world where, oh, what if we get this wrong when we say this wrong? Because we’re not experts wouldn’t mean that you know, the column wouldn’t exist, because you have to start somewhere, right? So I think it’s very cool that you can look back on your work and see the growth that you as an organization have made. But also, I still think I saw the Juneteenth post, which I think originally is from 2020, possibly, that you already posted. And it was a really good post. And I think it’s really needed because these conversations across our communities don’t really happen a lot. I’m curious, though, you know, you are wanting to curate these conversations for both of our communities to come together, especially because like Sarah pointed out white supremacy is always at work trying to pit us against each other. I’m wondering what the community response has been to the column?

Giannina
I think that community response has been great. You know, we’ve met lots of people who believe the same things that we believe which I think sometimes you feel like, Oh, you’re preaching to the choir, but it’s nice to hear that there is people out there who are doing the same work. And I think, you know, you recently talked to Rohan Zhou-Lee. And they are a great friend of Mochi. So I think like connections like that has been wonderful. And you know, really figuring out like, how can we foster those connections? How can we, you know, work together in coalition? How can we, you know, build this movement further, right? I think that there’s that end for me, because I have a master’s in Women’s and Gender Studies. And it was really focused on, you know, ethnic studies, really, because it’s at the intersection of like gender, and race and all these things. And for me, I’ve like, have this like, in me, this activist movement and me, like, how can we further this, but I think that there’s also the part to what we’re trying to do in that we’re called “Black Allyship” and not “Black Coconspirators,” or something like more progressive, because we know where some of our readers are. Right? And I think that, because we know where some of our readers are at, we’ve meet them where they’re at. And I think that they appreciate that. So we’ve heard that, like, you know, “It’s really great to see that you’re helping us talk to our parents about these topics. It’s really great to see that you’re providing perspectives on, you know, what’s going on right now,” especially during like the George Floyd protests, right? So I think, for me, it’s like both ends, right? Like, it’s like, yeah, be an activist move things forward, but also, don’t leave people behind.

Sarah
And to add on to that something that we heard back, not necessarily as feedback, but just a comment from someone who had followed Mochi from when it first started. And they hadn’t mentioned that, you know, mochi is getting really political. And I really sat with that comment and thought, is that a bad thing? You know, maybe we’re not connecting with certain audiences. And I thought about it. And, you know, we talked about it Giannina, and we really decided, you know, what, that’s what it is to be an Asian American person and any kind of marginalized person, because our act of being is political. And we decided to just really lean into that and say, like, yes, we can have fun, of course, and we can, you know, publish these fun pieces, but maybe are easier to read. But at the same time, you know, we want to be a much more socially aware and active community.

Giannina
That’s so funny that you share that because I think it was not foreign to my tenure as editor in chief that we got that comment and they’re like, I was like, “Oh, it’s like Giannina is doing this,” and, “Giannina’s driving this.” I was like, you know, the term Asian Americans wouldn’t come to be if it wasn’t your politics for the need to stand together politically beside black and brown students who were organizing. So I, for me, it’s like, how can you say you’re an Asian American magazine? And not touched on anything? That’s political? Like, that doesn’t make any sense at all. And I think, you know, as editor in chief for me, like we think about defining Asian America, right? What does that mean? Like, it means really leaning into, you know, the politics of it. And I know that there’s lots of movements to disaggregate what it means to be this Asian American and all these things. But we know that now it’s, you know, a political force, right? It’s,

Delia
Yeah, I think that’s really cool that y’all were able to get to the heart of it. Because when I hear comments like that, like, “Oh, that’s so political.” That’s more so what I experienced is people taking issue with like, the socialist undertones of the messaging. Again, I’m looking at this work through a pop cultural lens. But you know, when you look at the history of our solidarity, like historic movements, historic figures, that have worked across these racial lines, that’s been a lot of where they drew their principals from. And to me, when I hear people say that stuff, I feel like they’re trying to speak to something else that they can’t express. And so they’re taking issue with this thing, and kind of missing the message. And you know, it’s cool if you can get that message to them, despite those misgivings they might have but also, like you said, you kind of just have to move forward and spread the message, because the message is the most important part, right? And you meet people where they’re at where you can, and everyone else will get there eventually. Hopefully, that’s that’s what we can help.

Giannina
Yeah, I think that it’s political no matter what, right? Like I review on ‘Elemental,’ the Pixar film, right, and it had strong undertones of the immigrant experience, right? How’s that? Not political, right? So it’s just like, it’s better to be conscious than unconscious of our biases, of the harm that we can create, of, you know, the things that we could do better?

Delia
Yeah, for sure. I feel like a lot of people want to, and for good reason, silo themselves away from these hard topics, because they just want to live their lives. They don’t want to have to think about how they’re being oppressed systematically, and in day to day conversations at work, all this stuff. And like, I totally feel that I feel that that draw did not want to engage with that. But fortunately, or unfortunately, in America, especially to be a marginalized person does thrust you into a political existence, because our whole identities have been politicized. So you can either choose to engage with it or not, but I don’t think it’s fair to be like, Oh, that’s too political. Like, that’s just the soup we’re swimmin’ in. And, you know, so I wanted to know what the process was like, well, especially now that I know that y’all are a volunteer force, what the process was like, of developing the column and how starting a project like that happens?

Giannina
Yeah, definitely. We started under the tenor of the previous Editor in Chief. And actually, we need to shout out to our third co editor, Tria. Trio Wen who, you know, was really a driving force for the creation of this column. I think we really coalesced around the idea that, as an Asian American publication, we needed to say something, you know, in 2020, we needed to say something. And I think that, you know, certain people on staff and leadership didn’t know what to say. And I think that that that can be hard, right? Like you saw so many corporations scrambling, like pull together a message like, but it’s not about, you know, putting together corporate messages about saying something it’s like about, what should we say that will spark action. And I think that that’s what really led to the creation of our column is that we wanted to say things that would hit our readers on a certain way so that they could be like, “Oh, okay, I get the problem. And I know what I can do better.”

Sarah
And it wasn’t easy, by any means to, you know, even come together and agree on, you know, our mission statement, or, you know, our, for lack of a better word like manifesto, because, you know, we’re all different perspectives, we’re all coming from different walks of life, we’re all still very much learning. And I think even agonizing over like, specific words and word choice, you know, and of course, as editors, that’s what we do, right? And we’re three of us are coming together and looking at the same sentence and reading it over and agonizing over Is this the right word? Is this the right term? I don’t think we should use that. You know, let’s let’s use this instead. What do you think of this and really, brainstorming and really discussing these ideas, and that in itself felt very political, right, because we are, you know, actually stopping to think about the impact of a single word on not just our readers in our community, but also other communities as well and how they’re going forth into the world and sharing, you know, our message. And I think, you know, even if it was uncomfortable in those moments at first or even if there continues to be moments that are uncomfortable, I think, right? It’s all about leaning into that discomfort as we’re learning and as we’re, you know, changing what, you know, ideas have been hardwired into our brains by our society. And that, I think, has been a very exciting part of Black Allyship @ Mochi, you know, that place to really come together and discuss these ideas and just grow together?

Delia
How has having the column informed other work at Mochi? Like I imagine because you are both talking about, “We’ve learned a lot along the way through our work as allies or coconspirators with Black people through this column., like has that affected the work across Mochi? Like has it changed the dynamics behind the scenes at all? What does that been like?

Giannina
I think, as I mentioned, Mochi did shift a little bit under my tenor. As I also mentioned, I’m a strong activist. And this comes from a place of, you know, I am a single mom to a disabled toddler. You know, we, we were under the poverty line, when I gave birth to him, I was really young, I know what it’s like to be oppressed by multiple systems, I remember clearly like sitting in– And it’s hard to talk about stuff because they have so much trauma from it. But like, I remember sitting two, maybe three days after giving birth, just like having like postpartum sweats and sitting in a Medicare office trying to file for health insurance for my son, because they don’t let you do it before the child is born. But trying to file for health insurance, because I knew that he had Down syndrome. And we needed to go to multiple doctors in the next few weeks. And I didn’t want to go in without health insurance and just incur, you know, what could have been hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills, but at the same time I needed to go, you know, and just navigating those systems so young, and, like really scared and alone, because I didn’t– like I had my mother, but I didn’t have a partner in it. I didn’t, you know, have a boyfriend or his father in the picture. And I think that, you know, that’s the place that it comes from, that it’s important to do this work of cutting across the board. And I think even before we talked, it was talking to you about the Black maternal health crisis and how that’s really important to me, because I see how these issues, you see people go through it for for their whole lives. You know, like, if you’re black in America, you live a certain life, right? Where, you know, all these systems are creating weathering, creating these circumstances where it’s difficult for you to live your best life. But any one of us could be oppressed by those systems at any moment, and not come out of it. Right. So I think that that’s important to remember is that, you know, I think especially in disability justice, you hear this all the time, you know, it’s the one marginalized group that anybody can become a part of, at any point in their lives. So I think it’s really important for us at mochi to think about, as Asian Americans, are we perpetrating tenants of white supremacy? Are we perpetrating oppression among other people of color? Are we perpetrating harm even against other Asian Americans? Right? There’s, there’s colorism at play, there’s lots of things that play within our own communities. So I mean, that’s where I come from. And that’s where I think that, you know, Mochi has changed. And that’s kind of who we are now. And I say kind of, like, “Oh, it’s kind of who we are now,” because I recognize the work that our founders put into it to make this platform for teenage girls, but it’s also like, platforms need to evolve. So I’m like, that’s kind of how we are now but it sounds like that’s kind of how we are now.

Sarah
Yeah, I and I really do think that it is a testament to Giannina has incredible hard work and dedication to Mochi because she really reads every single piece that goes up and not all EiC’s have the you know, for whatever reason, are able to do that and she, Giannina, is always in there and making sure that we, you know, are aligned in our mission statement to of course, you know, redefine the Asian American experience, but also to be socially aware and to you know, make sure that we are aligned in our voice and that we’re not going to say anything that is harmful to you know, other communities and in our own community as well. And I think that it really truly is because Giannina is in there, you know, reading the pieces and giving feedback to our writers. You know, of course our writers are also on this learning journey. We all are and you know, she is kind of ensuring that the message that we are working on through black ally ship at mochi is also very present in our other pieces, whether it’s entertainment, or, you know, it’s a beauty piece, right, we’re being very socially aware,

Delia
Thank you for sharing your story Giannina. That, I think is going to resonate with a lot of people. And I think that’s what is so compelling to me and so important about this work is that, you know, these forces constantly and also individually at any one time, can be forced against us. And that, in itself is universal experience of the marginalized. And, you know, we’re constantly pitted against each other, but like, we all have some story like that, you know, like, because we live under the framework of white supremacy, like, that’s a traumatic experience, overall, but then we’re experiencing individual traumas, and those inform how we move through our life from there. And I think that’ll resonate with a lot of people. So I really thank you for sharing that. And I think it’s also a story of hope, because I think, you know, when you experience that, especially trauma at the hands of a system, you can feel so hopeless, right? Like, it’s, it’s so hard. And to come through that with any sort of hope or wanting to be active after that. I know, a lot of people who have had lots of trauma at the end of the medical system, racialized trauma at that class disparity, all of that. And a lot of people like just shut that out. So to use that as a catalyst to be like, you know, what we can make this world better, I think, is very inspiring. And I would love that to be the story from our folks. And I think we have to share for that to be a thing for people to feel less shame around their trauma, first and foremost. And also to just know what’s possible, like, we can come together, we can heal together in community, you know, through action, through conversation through just supporting each other. And I would love to see more of that. And I think work like Black Allyship @ Mochi is a great starting point because it allows people to even enter into conversations about what is oppression? Like, what does it look like for other people who don’t look like me. And like, I think you can see your own story reflected in that I find that true of you know, Asian Americans learning about Black history and like actually delving into the stories of black people and vice versa, when Black people actually open themselves up to the ideas of the Asian American plight, because again, we are also told as black people, you know, there’s the model minority myth, there’s a lot of resentment because of like the position Asian Americans, this is very broadly, of course, it depends on the specific community, but the position they’ve been given in our society, when black people have been here, working quite literally for generations in this country, and what they’ve been given back, where was my point going?

Giannina
Thank you for sharing that. I think, though, that I have to say that you and Sarah, both give me too much credit. I think it’s really important to acknowledge that, yeah, my situation really was tough. And I think it was, you know, a couple of years of toughness, but I am very privileged in that I got out of it. Right? Like, it’s funny, because, you know, it was like, one moment of your life. And then like, the next moment, it was okay, in that, like, you know, I found out I was pregnant right after I graduated, you know, suddenly was like, pregnant and working like three part time jobs in order to pay for a house because I couldn’t live with my parents and then gave birth to the baby was really struggling, but then got accepted to grad school on a full ride. You know, like, I think it’s like, it’s funny, because it goes to show my privilege, right? Like, I think–

Delia
Yeah.

Giannina
there was like, it’s not like, oh, it’s like, hopeful and like, oh, I worked hard for it. And all those things. Like, I’m sure I was hopeful. And I sure I did work hard. But I think that there was a certain level of privilege in that. I finished college. You know, I’ve talked to doulas who helped teenagers who don’t even get the chance to go to college, right? Who are in probably the same situation I was, more or less, right. So I finished college, I have that privilege to get me out of that situation anything. For me, that’s actually why it’s so important that I use the privilege that I have, you know, in work like this, right, whether it’s for mochi as a whole, or for the BAM column, the Black Allyship @ Mochi column. You know, I think it’s really important that whatever extra energy I have, and I don’t have a lot of it, because I’m usually chasing my four year old, aside from working my job and doing what you stuff, like I try to put it into causes that, you know, are really important for me to, not to like give back but because like I know what it’s like and I think, you know, there’s that quote from that Aboriginal Australian researcher who said something like, “If you’re not walking with me, then I don’t need your solidarity.” That’s not the exact quote, but it’s something along those lines of like, if you’re not walking the same struggle as I am, and you know, I don’t actually need your help. So I think that that’s really important to keep in mind because I have walked in those shoes. So I want to help those people who are going through it now because it doesn’t need to happen that

Delia
I think two things can be true at once. I think, you know, your story could be a story of hardwork and privilege. And I think that’s also something that people have hard time learning as they go on their journey. They’re like, okay, but I worked hard, and I was hopeful. And I did all these things. And I think it’s a beautiful thing when people can come to understand that and to utilize the privilege that they have, because I had to go on my own journey, being a mixed Black person, like I have a certain level of inherent privilege that way, and learning and understanding that while like, yeah, I’ve had hard things happen. And it’s been a struggle, and like, it hasn’t been easy. But then also, I have this privilege. But once I was able to unpack all of that, it’s like, oh, I have power that I can utilize to help those around me. And I should do that. I wonder if you’ll have any advice for folks who are just now starting to navigate their own journeys of allyship, whether that’s Asian folks trying to be allies to Black people, or vice versa, or just in general?

Sarah
I think just starting with, you know, education. And really, you know, I mean, there’s so many wonderful resources out there covering the history of Asian Americans and Black Americans and everyone in between, and how all of our communities have come together in the past or have been pitted against each other in the past. I think really just educating ourselves and recognizing that, you know, there is this shared history and that there continues to be shared history and nothing happens in a vacuum. I think that’s the first step to, you know, starting this journey of racial solidarity and recognizing that it’s okay to mess up. And as you noted before, right, it’s okay to say the wrong thing, as long as you are willing to learn from that and take accountability, and grow from that. And I think that that’s something that I personally struggle with, because I’m just an anxious person in general, and relatable. You know, sometimes I think maybe there’s no place for my voice in this. Right? And that also comes from like a child of immigrants perspective, where I was always taught like, right, like, what is the expression? Don’t be seen? Don’t be heard or

Giannina
Seen, but not heard?

Sarah
Yeah, seen but not heard! Yes, thank you. Well, for me, it was don’t be seen and don’t be heard. But

Delia
Oh, no.

Sarah
But you know, that kind of mentality of my parents didn’t really speak English very well, growing up and thinking about how they very much trusted teachers and, and other figures of authority to just kind of help me navigate the world. And now we know that, you know, those figures of authority may not have been the right people to trust. Yeah, and just kind of growing from that, you know, recognizing that, there were things that we learned, when we were younger, that we have to unlearn and it’s very uncomfortable process, to unlearn those things. And, you know, it really is just a matter of taking it slow. And so you don’t burn yourself out. But also, you know, making sure that you are not just learning but also taking action items, and, you know, writing to your politicians, you know, attending rallies, you know, writing, if you have social anxiety, and you can’t go out there to rally, you know, using your whatever you have the power to do, to help.

Delia
Do you have anything to add Giannina?

Giannina
I don’t think I have the expertise to give advice to all people right about what could be better, I think, you know, I want to encourage my fellow Asian Americans to not subscribe to white ideals, right? And think about, you know, different ways of raising our children raising the next generation, that don’t adhere to these notions or definitions of success that have been defined for centuries by, you know, white people. I think, for me, you know, staying out of predominantly white spaces, is one of those things that can really help expose, you know, your child to these things from a young age and like can build better people. And I think that you can find that when children are in diverse spaces, that they can teach you things, you know, that they can be like, “Hey, mom!” like, you know, I see this all the time with my son who goes to an inclusive preschool. Right? He’s, he’s one of the only few kids with a disability, and it’s a strongly visible disability. He’s nonverbal yet, you know, but he has friends and I’m sure that they tell their parents about Kato and what they like about him, and then it’s funny because when they meet him, they’re like, “Oh! He has Down syndrome.” You know, like it changes things for that. Right? And I know like Asian parents out there are gonna hate me but like not pushing Ivy schools not pushing private schools. Like public schools! Like all those things that could be really helpful for us to learn about one another, to connect with one another, to find, like joy and happiness in outside of capitalist constructs. I think that that’s really important for Asian Americans. And I think that that’s the way that we build solidarity. And, you know, Rohan wrote about this when a piece for Mochi, but it’s also something that I believed deeply is that in order to move forward, or in this work, you have to know yourself, right? I guess, as a high schooler, I didn’t know myself. I subscribed to white ideals. I wanted to be blonde, I wanted to have blue eyes. You know, I wished I was a white kid. And it’s so painful to say now. Because it’s like, why would I want to be anybody but myself? Because I’m amazing. You know what it’s like back then that was the reality is I wanted to be someone who I was not because society holds this certain ideal, you know, above us. And because I was holding the ideal in my mind. Even I’m did things that were harmful, right, that I shouldn’t have done. And looking back on it. I’m like, yeah, why did I do that? Oh, because I was subscribing to white ideals in a predominantly white space. You know, I think getting out of those spaces can really help, you know, Asian Americans and other people of color to find allegiance with one another. And I guess for white people, like, I think you also need to find yourself, but I can’t tell you how to do that.

Delia
Yeah, yeah. Rohan mentioned that in our episode about you need to find yourself as far as like, where to start with activist work. But I think allyship in general, like you have to know where you’re coming from your background, that includes the harm that you’ve done, and I think hard to accept. But I want to give people I hope through the course of this podcast, you know, the freedom to accept that we’ve all perpetuated white supremacy, like that’s the structure, it is literally indoctrinating you to further the system, even me as a mixed Black person, even Black people, LGBTQIA people, like we are all susceptible to doing it. And even after you learn, and you start to do better, you’re going to slip up and it’s going to happen, and giving yourself freedom to recognize that and recognize that the fact that you have these instincts to do that aren’t your fault, is a great step because then you can go okay, but what is in my control is how I respond, how will my second thought is after my first thought, like these types of things, I think is really important. I think that’s great advice to Asian Americans. But I think you know, anyone trying to do this work in general is a great place to start. The column has been going now for three years? Three and a half, three, three years. What is time? I know calendars, hello.

Giannina
Time after the Pandemic doesn’t count anymore, right? It’s like not a thing.

Delia
It’s not a real thing. That’s wild. It’s been three years. That’s why my brain stuttered a little bit. I was like, three years really? Okay, cool. You’ve covered a lot of topics, you’ve had a lot of great guest contributors. I’m curious, what are some topics you would love to see covered by the column in the future that may be evenly brushed on or things you want to see dive deeper into?

Sarah
I mean, something that I actually messaged you about this the other day, right? There’s always something happening in the news, that and I wish we had the capacity to cover to you know, really, like, write a full in depth article about something that’s happening right now that we can, you know, publish really quickly, we can edit it, we can, you know, get like a great picture for and third up and, you know, get people get our readers active, and have a very specific like, there is this, you know, rally here, let’s go. And that’s something that as we are volunteers, has been a struggle, right? Because we, of course, have to subscribe by capitalism and work day jobs to pay the bills. But that is something that I personally would just love if we could do if we had the capacity to like, really write fast news articles about current events that wouldn’t put a strain on, you know, our staff who are already working so hard. That’s just kind of the general term. But as an example, right, there’s so much happening with ethnic studies in the news, but we have not really gotten a chance to cover in detail. And there’s a lot going on between the Asian American community and Black community where, right we all want to pass ethnic studies, but some groups are maybe, you know, trying to get these bills passed at, you know, all costs and working with maybe not so ideal politicians in order to get that done. But really stressing that, you know, we want more inclusivity and solidarity when thinking about these action items and this is just one topic, right? But so many that I would just love for us to have the capacity to cover

Giannina
Sarah, I think you and I are, we’re thinking the same thing, because I was gonna jump into that, too. So we are definitely aligned on these things, I think, definitely, you know, the passage of Asian American Studies in certain states, which we shall pretend they’re not part of the United States. We can’t turn a blind eye to it, we need to think deeply about, you know, what’s happening in Florida, not just for Asian Americans, Black folks, and, you know, people of color, but also for transgender folks, right? Like, we see so many bills across the nation. And I think that that’s the one thing for me, it’s really important to not just think about racial justice, it’s important to think about, you know, gender justice, it’s important to think about disability, justice, all these frameworks that come together, because I think sometimes, as you see with these groups that Sara is mentioning, when you push your agenda by yourself in a silo, you end up hurting other people, right? And you might be like, “Oh, no, no! I’m really just trying to help my own people, don’t worry,” you actually end up hurting other people. So I think that that’s really important that we aren’t working in silos, we’re working together in coalition with one another. So that, you know, when we push these things forward, it’s not like, you know, African American Studies is bad. And Asian American Studies is now you know, legislated. Like, in what world, does that make sense? You know, when African American Studies is, like, rooted in the core of American history, right? There would be no United States without, you know, the Black people who were, you know, taken from their home countries and put here to like labor for free. Like, I think that that’s really important for us to remember, right. And it’s important to remember that there are parallels in Asian American history, right? So are they not in Asian American history going to talk about the Chinese people who built the railroads, right? Because they’re like, We don’t want, you know, people of color to be mad at white folks. And that’s like, their reasoning behind like, oh, let’s ban, you know, African American Studies. It’s like, so you’re not going to talk about that in Asian American Studies, you’re not going to talk about the ways that Asian Americans have been oppressed by the system. So what kinds of Asian American studies are you? You know, cover? Right, like? That’s the question. I think that, for me, that’s like, a big thing that I really want us to investigate is like, what kinds of Asian Americans are you teaching? I’m gonna teach them about foods that I like to eat, because that’s not usually American Studies. Like that’s great cultural exposure, but you can go eat in some, you know, whenever, right and making light of it. But it’s such a serious thing, right? It’s not just about acceptance, or inclusion, or I even saw this word, it was like, what was it? And it made me kind of mad. It was like tolerance. They were like, We need to teach tolerance.

Delia
Oh, oh.

Giannina
And now I’m down my spiral. So please pull me back.

Delia
There was well, okay, so a few things, I find it helpful to laugh because you can’t just be in the doom and gloom. So you got to laugh sometimes. Because what else are you going to do? So I think it’s fine to not make light of it. But you know, you gotta get the jokes off, as well as talking about serious issues. You know, I’m from Texas originally.

Giannina
Oooh…I’m kidding

Delia
I’m no, I’m not. It’s pretty bad down there, too. And so like, I am a big advocate for remembering, you know, the trans people exist in the south. Black people exist in the south. Like, these are these people’s homes. And so, really having to engage with the hard stuff that’s happening in these places, and having people who are having thoughtful conversations is so important, but at the same time, actually, I think Giannina it was your automatic reply. On your email, it says something about how urgency is a contract of white supremacy. And that blew my mind, I had never thought of that, like, you know, capitalism. Yeah. But just to think of it in those terms. I’m like, that is so true. Like why? Who said that everything has to happen now because I feel that pressure a little bit as a podcaster. Nowhere near as much as I would as print media as a digital magazine like that pressure is very real for y’all. But why don’t we value more so thoughtful conversations, which take time to develop, like, I would love to hear yours and your contributors thoughts on the stuff that’s happening in Florida, and I don’t see why it’s not allowed to take time. It’s fine that it would take time to develop the thoughtful conversation. And I thought, what perspective that I think your readers and I would be very excited to hear even if it’s, you know, a month or two from now, because it’s also an intersection of solidarity in the fact that you’re teaching a whitewashed Asian American history, and not teaching Black history, but it’s even more whitewashed than that because I don’t know that people realize just how intertwined our histories are you really to teach Asian American history, there comes a point in the narrative that you also have to teach Black history because they interweave so much for a time period that it’s wild to me to even suggest. I mean, it’s not well, because it’s Ron DeSantis,

Giannina
He who shall not be named.

Delia
Yeah, exactly. I’m like, normal people would know that. That’s a wild thing to suggest. So I hope that pressure gets relieved over time, I probably won’t. I know, it’s a constant balance. But I hope that, you know, you at least have one reader who is like, we will wait for it. You know?

Giannina
I think our readers, you know, when we have the time capacity and energy to put thought out, will, you know, appreciate what we put out. I think I should also know proper citation I just I don’t believe in not properly citing (citing is not a word). But citing, you know, this idea of like urgency and white supremacy is not mine is actually a really famous scholar Tema Okun’s idea, and there are several tenants of white supremacy that you’d be surprised by actually, so I think, for me, it’s, it’s actually really hard to work against urgency. And because I, I was raised to be a workaholic, I probably also just have it in my blood. But you want to get things done. And you think that what you accomplish is indicative of you being successful invest you being a valuable human being. But what you create in this world, it could take a long time, we know that, for instance, authors, some of my favorite authors, you know, wrote their books for 10 years, right? And it’s not indicative of their day to day value. I think that that’s, again, bringing it back to connectivity, like why it’s important to connect with one another on a relational basis, just because I think that, you know, especially when I’m in the disability justice framework, you know, what you can achieve, shouldn’t be who you are, or how you’re valued for, right? Like, I value my child because he’s my child. And I think he’s such a joy. And it’s funny, because they no other parents think about, like, oh, what kinds of jobs will they do? And that’s like, thinking about what kind of jobs they’ll do, how he will be part of the system. I’m trying to see how he’s gonna break through the system. What can he do that, like, you know, is beyond capitalism, because he doesn’t mean to be part of the system. Right? That’s the interesting thing is like, within all these spaces, there’s spaces to disrupt norms. Right? There’s spaces to move beyond the systems. And I think it’s rare, but you gotta find it. And now, I’m continuing on this tangent, but I’m gonna stop myself.

Delia
Did you have anything that that Sarah?

Sarah
Actually my partner and I often talk about this and, and I realized, I have to unlearn a lot of the things that my parents instilled in me, right? That like, because you’re Asian American, and you have to be two times smarter than everyone else in that room, you have to be you have to work two times harder than everyone else in that room. And it’s something that I just have to unlearn. And my partner is Puerto Rican. And we have the privilege of living in New York City, where I mean, there is a housing crisis. I don’t know how long how much longer we can live in New York City. But we’re born and raised here. So we have seen diversity all around us. But we’re also seeing this insane school system in New York City, that once again pits Asian communities against many other people of color. And it’s a children of color. And like that’s a horrible thing for kids to have to navigate. And these are conversations that we have often have, how do we break through this? How do we give our kids the tools for surviving in the world, in a capitalist society, while also teaching them to dismantle these beliefs? So it’s definitely something that we grapple with? And we shall see.

Delia
It’s an answer, we’re always–all of us–constantly writing, right? You know, what are the solutions? How will we combat and beat these oppressive forces? But I think it’s kind of beautiful that we’re all finding the answer together continuously. And if you’ve ever feel hopeless, in the pursuit of that, I think that’s something that gives me hope is knowing that there are things like like Black Allyship @ Mochi, there are people like Rohan, there are places in fandom like with Grace doing work together to build coalition, and I think you can find a lot of hope in that even when in your personal life, you’re like, “This is really hard.” And that can really help you continue on the path. With that said, 2hat are your hopes for the future of BAM… I feel like I’m so cool. I’m using “BAM.”

Giannina
I think you know, hearing from readers and potentially seeing their journeys. I think this also answers your previous question is something that I would like us to start to, you know, don’t document and hear and like be able to share with our readers because, you know, I think we have high guest contributors. And a lot of the pieces, though have been written by Sarah, Tria, and myself. And you know, we’re very conscious of our journey. And I think we’ve shared it a lot. But I think it’d be interesting to hear from other people, you know what their journeys are. And I think, for instance, like one guest contributor (and Sarah, you’ll know her name because she’s your friend) but she wrote about, like, the Indo Caribbean experience, right. And I think that, within the Asian American experience, there are many ways for us to come to consciousness about what we need to do about the society around us. And, you know, it can be in little and slow ways. And I think that I’m not trying to fault anybody who doesn’t see the issue, because I think that, like Sarah said that they’re surviving. Right? And I don’t think that I think you have a very privileged perspective, if you’re like, everybody should be on board, and everybody can get on board. And it’s easy, because it’s not easy, it’s hard. And it has to be something that you have the space and time and energy to contribute yourself to. And I think that, you know, doesn’t come for you now, it can come for you in later in life. And I know this, because I’ve had lots of talks with my mom about how she understands race as an immigrant, right? Like she immigrated from the Philippines, you know, and what it means to her as she grew older, because she was already an adult when she immigrated, and like, you know, got to know people and understood, like the issues, right? So I don’t think that it’s fair to say that, like, everyone should be doing this now. Like, I think that you need to have the right space and time. And that if you’re surviving right now, that’s okay.

Sarah
Yeah. I think my hope is that we can reach more people who are trying to survive. And sometimes reading a block of text, right, is not necessarily accessible for everyone. You know, maybe they’re coming from their own traumas, and maybe a visual is easier. So I think we are definitely hoping to have more of a multimedia reach, you know, exploring different avenues for sharing bems message and, and connecting with different people in ways that can feel more accessible in a way that it’s not, you know, we’re not coming from a place of judgment. We’re not coming from a place of, again, you have to do this, it all comes from a place of love. It truly does. And it’s a message of love that we have had the privilege to read, you know, other racial educators share and that we also want to help spread.

Delia
You said, “this is a message of love.” And that was something else I was going to say when I said I grew up in Texas we read… it’s super famous. So y’all people are going to definitely let me know what it is. But we–required reading I think my sophomore year English class was talking about some famous white writer, I don’t remember, wrote about how the world needs tolerance, not love. And I remember like, you know, it was an English class, but I was kind of taught with the eye of, “Yeah! We don’t have to love each other, we’d have to tolerate each other.” That’s the answer to society’s ills. And I grew up and realize, okay, that’s a load of baloney. That’s wild that, you know, they tried to teach us that, like, that’s so wild to me. And so to juxtapose we were talking about earlier, than wanting to teach tolerance to you saying that it’s a message of love, like I 100% agree that we need to come from a place of love, because like, that’s what humanity is, I feel like, our capacity to love each other and grow with each other and find community with each other. For the folks at home, if they wanted to get involved, how, how can they go about doing that?

Sarah
Come to our website, we are always looking for guest writers, staff, writers, pitch your stories, pitch your ideas. You know, we’re truly looking for different perspectives to learn from and to help spread the message. So yeah, please, please come to our website and email,

Giannina
black ally ship @ mochi mag dot com. And you’ll get a response from either me or Sarah because again, we’re volunteers. So it really literally will be me or Sarah, again, you know, not subscribing to urgency, you can expect a response between four to six weeks, just need to say that because I know some people are like, “Oh, they didn’t email me back right away within 24 hours.” Oh, yeah. We don’t email people back. I think the other thing I would say though, you know, is that in order for us to share our work, I think it’s really important that like, you know, if you see us and you are like, “Oh, I want to share this on social with, you know, my family or friends,” like tag us so that people know like, where it’s from, and then they can look at everything else that we’ve worked on it That’s really important. Again, proper citations really important for me. And it’s helpful for Mochi.

Delia
For sure, definitely share their work there do great pieces even outside of the BAM column. So if there’s listeners who have background or experiences like submit for wherever you feel you fit, but I, for sure encourage people to do that. Again, I had Rohan as a guest there. I don’t know, are they just a frequent guest contributor or staff writer.

Giannina
Rohan is a dear friends. I feel like whenever they are like, “Hey, I’m thinking of writing something.” It’s like, “Yeah, let’s like work on it together.” Like, “Let me know how I can help you.” You know, So Rohan’s a dear friend, they like they are also learning and growing in their journey. And I appreciate that, right? Because I think for sure, it’s great to work with people who are like, I’m an expert, good for you. You’re an expert, right. But I think you know where we’re at. It’s nice to have somebody to bounce ideas off of, and actually, we’re going to be judging our essay contest together this week, because I’m excited to you know, hear their perspective. And they come from such a different perspective. And I appreciate that.

Delia
For sure. So if y’all liked Rohan’s episode, like what they had to say, definitely go check out their article for BAM, I’ll probably link a few in the show notes. But in general, you can just go to Mochi Mag, and you’ll find all that and more. Before we close out, is there anything you wish we had more time for?

Giannina
Oh, man, I mean, I know you’re–you wanted to talk to us about, you know, Black and Asian, you know, solidarities work movements and stuff like that, I don’t think that I can necessarily talk to the other side of that experience. So today, you know, you’ve heard us talk a lot about our experiences, Asian Americans, and, you know, what we’ve learned? And I think that that’s important to know, right? I think that it’s important that even if you’re like, if I was to call myself a racial justice educator, or expert, that I wouldn’t be doing that alone. Because it doesn’t make sense to me, for me to be talking about racism, when I don’t understand or experience anti Black racism, and in fact, can perpetrate it on a daily basis.

Delia
Yeah.

Giannina
Right? So I think it’s really important for listeners to know who they are, and recognize, I wouldn’t say like their limits, but recognize what their purview is, you know, what they bring to the table, and be okay with that.

Delia
I think that’s important. And then I’ll pass it to you, Sarah, that’s important for people who grew up like me, if you were, you know, that bookish kid, that kid that everybody–the GT kid, really. Like, who you then grew up with the trauma of like, “I have to be the best at everything and smart at everything and like, know everything about everything.” That’s a good thing to highlight that it’s okay to just highlight what you bring to the table and know what you don’t. And that’s fine, you’re not going to be an expert in everything. You can’t speak to everything. And it’s important that you can’t speak to everything, because there are other people who can and will do a better. So for people who grew up like me, I think that’s very much important to highlight and recognize in yourself. And again, that goes to knowing yourself, for sure.

Sarah
Yeah, and for me, I think, coming from an immigrant family background, as well, and, you know, being the person who translates for my parents, not just linguistically, but also culturally, I definitely hope that are Asian Americans who have that ability to speak to their parents in a different language to translate for them people who are bilingual, trilingual, will really take advantage of that, and, you know, help educate our older community members about police brutality, about, you know, the anti Asian hate crimes, and you know, how increased policing will not fix these things, right? And having these conversations with our parents with our, you know, older generations, or even recent immigrants, right, I think that’s so important. And that’s something that I hope, BAM can help provide resources for, because I think that really is something that is very much in conversation very much relevant now. Here in New York as well, right? We have hate crimes every day. And that’s something that is again, pitting different communities against each other in the news. And that’s a narrative that we really want to combat. And I think those of us who can speak to older generations about these things, who are able to do that not all of us are, and that’s okay, maybe not all of us feel safe to do so. But those of us who can I think, really, you know, it’s definitely within our power to try and to help bridge that gap.

Delia
Yeah, if you feel safe to do so and you can do that work, that work alone is so powerful. That person to person interpersonal communication. Because, you know, a lot of people don’t have access to have those conversations, and you can do it with your own family. Well, thank you both so much for joining me. It’s been a really good time really insightful love everything I know had to say. You already told people how they can get involved. But if you could go ahead and tell the good folks in general where they can find you all mochi, your work and what you’ll have coming up.

Giannina
Yeah, definitely you can find us online at our website, which has been mentioned many times at www.MochiMag.com. And you can find us on Instagram @mochimag official and other social media platforms. But I would say Instagram is our main platform at this moment.

Sarah
Like we mentioned before, not all of our actually all of our pieces are inherently political. So you know, if you’re interested, check out our other columns as well. We talk about a lot of other very pressing social issues that affect all communities. You know, even even Giannina’s, wonderful review of elemental check it out. And yeah, definitely give us your feedback. Pitch to us, follow us and we hope to have you join our community.

Delia
Great, I love it. And thank you all so much for joining me on this coalition mini series. I had so much fun planning and speaking with our guests. This was a bit of a test run, but I’m very excited to put more things like it together in the future. Let me know what you think. Did you enjoy it? Did you learn some things you know, whatever the case may be, of course, as always, you can let me know @culturexpodcast on Twitter, again, less of these days or IG. And until next time, keep it to and keep a nerdy!

June 26 2023

[8] The Coalition Power of BTS ARMY

[8] The Coalition Power of BTS ARMY feat. Grace of joonsmelanindrop

Listen on...

Watch on YouTube

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In this episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews Grace of @joonsmelanindrop! We discuss finding connection and building coalition in K-pop fandom, the power of ARMY, fan culpability, the machine of HYBE and the K-pop industry, and more! Who is your BTS bias?

Song recommendations:

“⁠Paradise⁠” by BTS

“⁠Black Swan⁠” by BTS

“⁠Haegeum⁠” by Agust D

Definitions:

Bias – your favorite member of a group

Lookism – discriminatory treatment of people who are considered physically unattractive

OT7 – “one true seven” meaning all seven BTS members

Sasaeng – an obsessive fan who stalks or engages in other harassing behavior constituting an invasion of the privacy of Korean public figures

Other things discussed in this episode:

⁠TIME for Kids – The BTS Effect “Fan Favorites”⁠ by Connie Gibbs
⁠Fandom Forward⁠

Guest

This episode’s guest, is Grace from joonsmelanindrop! You can find her here: ⁠Instagram⁠

Find us online:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Patreon⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

Credits

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia ⁠Personal Twitter⁠ | ⁠Personal Instagram⁠ | ⁠Personal Site⁠

About Culture by Culture

Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

Delia
Hey there, welcome to culture by culture, a multi dimensional exploration of Black and Asian pop cultural ties. I’m your army house, Delia. And today is another episode of our coalition miniseries. I’m so excited. Joining me today is the creator of joonsmelanindrop an account on Instagram. It’s great. Y’all should check it out. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll talk about it. Grace. Hi, Grace.

Grace
Hi, how are you?

Delia
Very good. Please tell the listeners a bit about yourself and what it is that you do.

Grace
My name is Grace. I am an Army. During the ‘Be’ era, I guess my account joonsmelanindrop is really about thinking critically about K-pop. And the fandom I think it’s easy to kind of idolize these idols and like see no faults in them. But I think there’s also a lot of things that we need to think about and challenge within K-pop because it’s very multi layered. And I think it’s just more than the idols the fandom also creates content and fuels a lot of the work that you know, these idols do so yeah, I think us being in the conversation is always important.

Delia
Yeah, I was talking to a friend the other day about that actually, we were having conversation, they’re not into K-pop just trying to explain like, how the fandom itself is as much of a machine for lack of a better word as the industry that kind of operates independently, but also in conjunction with the industry.

Grace
Exactly. Yeah.

Delia
And I want to give a shout out to, the way I found your page was through btsabolitionmemes, I had found them a while back. And I was like, Look, I’m looking for someone to talk on this podcast and some accounts to follow because I know this exists because my a little bit about my journey. I don’t think I’ve talked a lot about it in K-pop is like, I’ve been a K-pop fan from probably 2018 I think BTS was first. I’m Army Hello, I’m not out here faking just for the podcast. Yeah, I got real deep into it. When I finally got into my ult. group, which I don’t tell people what my ult. group is because we are equal opportunity here. I’m not trying to single out anyone. But the fandom space was not the healthiest for me personally, and it could be that way sometimes. So I knew that accounts like yours existed for my time, but had been like a year and a half or so. And couldn’t find anything. Because a lot of times you’ll see in K-pop. And people come and go for similar reasons often, like, oh, their real life gets busy, or their mental health is kind of suffering because of like, some of the stuff that goes on or sometimes you know, it’s just like it’s a phase and that’s fine. So yeah, I had to ask around, so shout out to btsabolitionmemes, because not only did she give me your information, but she linked a bunch of great accounts. I’ll share them either in the show notes or online on socials. Because there’s a lot of cool people out there. And we’ll get into all that. So you talked a bit briefly about it. You got into K-pop around 2020 What was it that drew you into K-pop? Was it just like a quarantine thing? Or what was it?

Grace
I think it was kind of both so it was my first semester in grad school. And

Delia
Oh man.

Grace
Yeah, in 2020. Yeah, it was it was rough. I don’t know why I did that to myself. But yeah, it was just really isolating and just a tough time. And it actually came about because I was working on a story with my friend about BTS ARMY, but it didn’t really pan out. I guess when I was like really going through it. I kind of like looked more into BTS looked into their music and I think what really drew me to them was their variety show ‘Run BTS!’

Delia
Oh, man. Oh, yes. The variety shows, get into them.

Grace
No, yeah, it’s definitely really nice for fans to kind of get to know their artists out of the music and see how chaotic they are. And like, I think what I appreciate that BTS is kind of their relationship with each other and kind of how they show though much love and compassion, but like, also challenge each other in different ways as well. So that really brought me into the fandom. I’ve been ARMY ever since. It’s funny how when hyper fixation kind of leads you full blown into the army, but

Delia
Oh, for sure.

Grace
I’m glad that I discovered them when I did because it was just a really hard time I was actually contemplating putting grad school and quarantine was just really rough and just not really finding any sorts of connections. So I started just posting about BTS on like, my personal main account. And then I started making army friends through there and yeah, it just kind of blew up at that moment.

Delia
It’s so beautiful to me. And again, we’ll talk a little bit more about it. I don’t know that people on the outside of K-pop realize what K-pop in general but especially army and BTS, like the power that they have and like the positive effects they’re having in the world but also just an individual’s lives, like the fact that that helped you get through that year or however long that quarantine was for you of grad school, and you’re still out here doing it rather than quitting like that’s beautiful, you know?

Grace
Yeah, I’ve never been so hyper fixated on something for this long. Like it’s already been three years. They’ve really given me a lot in terms of wanting to be a better person wanting, to build the relationships that kind of simulate what they have, as a group, wanting to empower others and inspire others, honestly, they gave me a path to appreciate more of myself. And for that I’m always grateful.

Delia
That’s so lovely to hear. I wish it didn’t take these apps coming from across the sea for Westerners specifically to have this opportunity because it doesn’t really exist in our media or our music landscape in an authentic way, or at least in a way that feels authentic. I know we could have the conversation about like, how authentic are K-pop idols, et cetera, et cetera, but in a way that feels authentic? I don’t think it really exists and hasn’t like I grew up in the Backstreet Boys NSYNC era, and like, you weren’t getting that from them, which is fine. But I think there’s something that’s so powerful from seeing these like authentic connections that some idol groups form again, not all of them, you know, it’s an industry of course, but especially groups like BTS, I was wondering what the catalyst of so you were having this experience in quarantine, of, you know, having a hard time in grad school. So sorry, that’s, that sounds real rough and you come to BTS. I wonder what the catalyst then was for you to create joonsmelanindrop.

Grace
Okay, so this account went through various iterations. Okay, because like, I think when you create a stand account, like you kind of have to have a niche or like something that kind of differentiates yourself from other standing counts. And I really didn’t know what that was, at first. BTS really focuses on self love and self compassion. So I thought I was gonna do that for a bit. Then I started making more like abolitionist memes. And then that fence waded into me kind of writing more, because that’s kind of where my strengths is, and kind of writing critically about things like I have a background in like social justice and abolitionist frameworks, and just kind of delving deeper into topics providing a lot of nuance on you know, the fandom and I think from there, it really grew, I just kind of shared my takes on the K-pop fandom, because I think we as fans kind of really idolized them, but we also have to think about how it is also an industry that kind of beings, you know, this perceived intimacy, also thinking about how they can modify their idols for us to kind of buy more things or to kind of build up this industry. I mean, BTS itself made Big Hit and HYBE exponentially grow.

Delia
Oh, for sure.

Grace
And that’s definitely comes from the faithfulness and like, really impacts of the ARMY and like making them become who they are, especially in this moment.

Delia
Yeah, I think it cannot be understated how how much of a juggernaut in the like in the music landscape, but especially in the Korean economy, like they are massive. And that yes, like you said, is due to the faithfulness of their fans. But again, also trying to balance that understanding of like, this is I don’t want to like harshly read as well, but it is manufactured intimacy in service to capitalism on hyperdrive, like it is this really extreme. And that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy your idols. It doesn’t mean you can’t feel this connection, like by all means, yes. Because you talked about what it’s done for you. And I know what it’s done in my life and other’s lives, like what these people and not just BTS like K-pop groups, like both girls, both boys groups, what these people mean to their fans, and I think that can be very powerful, but it is important to contextualize it. And I found at least my time, actively in K-pop fandom, it was difficult to have those conversations. So I wonder what the reception has been like for you and your page in putting these thoughts out there.

Grace
It hasn’t been always positive, out of my page I kind of grew a community that is kind of more open about sharing these things and thinking critically about these issues. Many times I’ve been called an anti It’s especially hard being a Black fan.

Delia
Yeah, yeah.

Grace
Because there is a lot of anti-Blackness and K-pop it’s very well known, like, idols dressing up in blackface and wearing like box braids or cornrows, or like, you know, things that would signify Black culture and like not really honoring those that they are taking culture from, because K-pop is very Black and comes from like cultural refer themes and music. And what stands out about BTS is that they do kind of give credit. So that’s what I appreciate about them that I haven’t really seen in other K-pop groups. But yeah, it is especially hard being a Black fan, because, you know, you call up these things, and you get a lot of pushback because people are so protective of their idols of not wanting to taint their image when it comes across like very anti black just really kind of pacify the issue when it’s, you know, no, they really should be thinking about these things because they’re representing themselves to a worldwide audience. And if they’re building from a culture that already exists, it’s really important for them to kind of acknowledge and be mindful of the culture that they’re taking from as Black fan it’s just really hard to navigate because you care for these idols and you want them to to be better, you want your idols to, you know, grow. You want your idols to be better people and be more mindful of these things. A lot of my friends are Black ARMY, and we really pour a lot into this industry. And I think we should be, you know, really recognize and have our voices heard, most especially. Especially because this industry in itself has been built from a lot of Black music, rap and hip hop and R&B.

Delia
Absolutely.

Grace
It really has a cultural and like a personal impact.

Delia
Oh, for sure. I was talking about how you were talking about it being anti Black, but it’s also at the same time when talking about when fans are trying to defend their idols basically, at all costs. It’s also extremely infantilizing to the idols which is very often a form of racism that especially east Asian people face, it’s like they’re adults, they can handle criticism. And I’m not saying it feels good. Of course, it doesn’t feel good to get criticized on a wide scale. Like we all know that but nobody is coming up to defend… I don’t know, what are what are some who’s poppin these days? Billie Eilish? like that nobody is trying to like go to bat if she does something wrong to that level, you know, because we all recognize she is a human who could probably understand concepts, you know, and it’s just wild to me that on two axes, fans are purposefully or accidentally who’s to say doing a racism, you know. And it’s very difficult when these things come up to try and have these conversations where it’s like, “Oh, we want to email the company and say, ‘Hey, it’s not cool that this artist is wearing cornrows in this promo, can we like not do that?'” But then you are gonna have the fans who are like, “Leave him alone!” “Leave her alone, she doesn’t know any better.” And it’s like, well, how do we get her to know better than there’s only one way is if we call it out? And then there’s that added layer to the conversation of– personally, my stance often, depending on the individual is that there’s so much responsibility on these industries, like I can understand that a K-pop artist who is newly debuted probably straight out of high school is not going to really have the cultural context all the time to make the right decisions, and they’re going to learn and they’re going to mess up, that’s fine. But these industries, these companies who send their idols out without any sort of training or understanding of a worldwide context and set them up for failure, oh, it gets me every time like it goes all over me. And that’s why I have no problem being like, “No, email the companies. They need to hear about this because they should have known better in the first place, instead of setting up their idols.” It’s not always the idols being set up, sometimes the idols they just be messing up for sure. But when I think of like promotional images, and like fashion choices, those are often at the company’s discretion. So it’s difficult to talk about but I’m really happy to see so many accounts like yours having these conversations with different iterations of the conversations, some of race issues, some around LGBTQIA plus issues, others just, you know, general abolition and things like this, socialists accounts. Like these conversations are happening in fandom spaces through the power of K-pop. But especially the the power of ARMY who is undoubtedly who– Is that controversial? Should I knot say that? I was gonna say, “Who is undoubtedly the largest and most powerful,” but maybe I shouldn’t say that. I don’t know. And so I wonder what it’s been like trying to build, coalition and affect change with other people across fandom, even if it’s just other creators, because I know, maybe listeners who are new to K-pop fandom may not know this, but like, often there are like movements from the fandom to affect change, whether it is like email campaigns like “Hey, this person, you have your idol doing this, that’s not correct.” Or like in 2020, there was a lot of movement around Black Lives Matter. But before that ARMY has always been philanthropic because BTS is philanthropic. My friend actually did the cover story for TIME for Kids. There was a cover story about the BTS Effect and talking about how fans are so philanthropic. But I do wonder what that’s like trying to build those coalitions these days, especially around I feel like people are getting better versed in social issues.

Grace
Yeah. So I guess one of the big campaigns that me and like other ARMY did was last year when they released their anthology, album ‘Proof.’ And one of the songs filter by one of the members, Jimin and one of the writers, or one of the contributors.

Delia
That’s right.

Grace
had multiple counts of sexual assault. And I think what grew out of that was we tried to create like a petition. It was actually really difficult because, you know, copyright law and like all that, and like, trying to take a song off streaming is just, that’s a world that I actually don’t know. I’m not well versed in so eventually, it just became more calling attention to the issue. Let like as a group, we kind of built this ARMY organization called ARMIES Against Silence. And we kind of shared the petition around to kind of raise awareness about this issue and we got quite a bit of signatures and a lot of people shared you know why we as fans as ARMY like want them to take a stand against sexual assault and like these issues because you know, our fandom is largely composed of women and like marginalized gender identities and queer folks, LGBTIA+, and a lot of these issues carry a lot of weight in our community, we’re supporting a group that, you know, promotes self love and like impacts through change. We really want a group to represent those things and hold what they say not just through words, but through action as well. Haven’t really heard back from BTS. I understand why. But I think through that I was able to connect with a lot of ARMY were like more critically minded about social issues and like wanting to build a coalition, we’re already a big community already. What else can we tap into in this fandom that can make people think a little differently about things? You know, we talked about the perceived intimacy or how anti-Blackness occurs in K-pop, ableism, all these issues that are so very real, and so very in our lives, that it doesn’t make sense to separate it from K-pop. Because I know, yeah, it’s definitely presented as more fantasy and like kind of disconnecting from the real world. These are actually real people in a real industry that are like putting up these messages. So why can’t we also contextualize this in light of what’s going on in the world, there’s so much fascism, and like just a lot of things that I think we really need to think more critically about. This fandom isn’t just like very young teenagers, there’s like–

Delia
No.

Grace
It’s very diverse. There’s 20, 30 year old, 40 plus. So many people kind of united around this band. And I think we continue to share our takes on things and make our voices heard around like the exploition of the K-pop industry, like how they’re debuting all these teens really young, and

Delia
It’s so problematic.

Grace
It’s so problematic! And, like, it’s really hard to find a sense of advocacy in those spaces, because it’s very male dominated. You know, we as fans, we can’t just passively listen to songs and like theorize about the lyrics. We can also make a change and how this industry treats its idols and treats it’s fans you know. I think that’s what the beautiful part about it is, we can do so much more. We’re capable of so much more.

Delia
I feel like that’s been the trend and change in K-pop fandom. Pretty much from like BTS’ generation on I see more people engaging critically. Not that I was in fandom. I said, I joined in 2018. But when you look at the fandom in the past, and like how the industry was operating in the past, I think people are just a lot more socially conscious and seeing the power of K-pop and I think that is in large part because of BTS, of course. And I see fans, yeah, engaging more critically in wanting to make changes in fandom but also through fandom in the greater world. Like the petition you were talking about? Sure, maybe nothing changes with the songwriting credits or whatever with that one song. You know, maybe because they don’t want to (hopefully that’s not the case). Maybe just because legally, they can’t. But I think it is important to have those conversations because now they know that fans care about this. So in future when they’re looking at the work that they’re going to do, who is they’re going to work with they know like these are the standards we have to hold, because, unfortunately, capitalist machines are here to make money and unless the you as fans are going to stand up and say like “No, these are the standards we want you to hold or else you don’t get the money.” That’s the only thing that’s gonna keep them from doing the things they do. Maybe artists input but like even BTS as huge as they are, only have so much input. Like the contracts are what they are. First and foremost, they have to make money. And BTS is some of the most liberated K-pop idols that you’ll find. And even still, like, again, it’s limited what control they have, because, I remember, a lot of people like to talk about– this as an aside. But a lot of people like to talk about, “Oh, well, they own part of the company, yada yada yada,” but like they don’t actually like their shares are negligible. Like any say they have in their careers at this point is just by the grace of HYBE, and from the, you know, respect that they’ve earned in the industry and like the faith that their company can put into them, but they still don’t have freedom to just do whatever. And I think people forget that. In the fandom, but also people don’t realize that on the outside, like they’re huge, but they still are in these contracts that are very predatory, all that stuff. So I really hope that we see in the future that I’m not working with people like that, because also I know that in Korea, that’s– Sexual assault and sexual violence, we’re starting to see movements over there, but like with a lot of pushback. So it’s a whole thing that has so many layers again, and why it’s important to have these conversations. And I think these conversations will be ongoing for a long time and that’s okay, that they are going to take time but I think it’s great that there are people like you and other people in fandom doing that work. I wanted to know what inspires you to speak out on a specific topic when you do write your, would you call them essays? I mean, they’re on socials, but I mean, they’re mini essays I would say.

Grace
Honestly, I spend a lot of time thinking about things about how I relate to K-pop and like issues that come up. And sometimes I kind of bounce off from what other people share like btsabolitionmemes who definitely writes a lot of think pieces about different aspects of the BTS fandom. And I know they talked about how similar to what I said, you know, we have to do more than idolize these idols and like say that we love the seven men. There’s more that we can do. And I think for me, yeah, at first it was kind of like, I know, the fashion industry is a big thing in K-pop, and also how that kind of lends itself to more commodification. And sometimes I would just read articles, you know, journal articles about neoliberalism or like kind of how like, these idols are conditioned to be models for the country, but at the same time, they have to represent this framework of work hard, and you’ll find success when you know, that’s not really the case, especially in Korea, where it’s really hard to find employment, and there’s a structure at place. Instead, you’re kind of thinking about yourself, your personal failure, which is very self deprecating, and it doesn’t get to the place where no, it’s actually workplace exploitation, it’s actually us basically selling our labor to become useful in whatever workforce industry.

Delia
I mean, there’s a reason why mental health in Korea is so bad. Like the statistics are really startling and really concerning that come out of Korea surrounding mental health and things people do because of their negative headspace.

Grace
Yeah, no, definitely the burnout too in K-pop. And I think, because I’ve literally been shared a thing about JK talked about the song that they just released to like, “Oh, I totally forgot about that song. It’s been so long ago,”

Delia
Yes, I saw that post. Yeah, it’s wild, they literally are working so long, and so often, that they can’t remember all the things that they’ve done. And, you know, I really compare it in my mind to— again, if you’re listening, and you’re not really into K-pop fandom, or maybe you just casually like BTS or Blackpink, or whoever, the K-pop industry, the way that they recruit idols and tree idols to me, is very similar to our military here. They like prey on the youth, they offer, like, look at all this stuff that’s going to be taken care of for you, you don’t have to worry about anything, you don’t have to plan. This is going to be your life for the next seven years will feed you, clothe you, house, you, et cetera. And we’re gonna make it really big and be able to take care of your family, like it’s very similar. And in the same way, like they go live in dorms, their whole day is planned and managed by the company. It’s very similar to me. And similarly, they’re going to do so much work, and just so much output constantly over the course of those years. Yeah, they’re not gonna remember all the things that they do, because it’s not the same as artists here. I mean, sometimes there are still like, really bad contracts that exist in America, in the music industry, to be sure. But more often nowadays, like, these are labors of love, you know? Yes, they have, like, contractual obligations, but like they’re writing their songs, they’re singing their songs, like they are very involved in that process. And they’re doing it because on some level, it’s what they love to do, you know?

Grace
No, definitely. It’s just hard to kind of take it in as a fan to see how much they are exploited and even like RM sharing his whole day on. YouTube Like, that’s–

Delia
That was wild.

Grace
That was wild. It’s surveillance honestly, like how much access we have to these idols. And we don’t think about how the K-pop industry feels, you know, toxic fans like sasaengs or like fans that kind of go to their house or like send them things. It really is the industry that pushes needs fans to the extreme because there’s no set barrier of where these idols can not exist as idols.

Delia
I always feel the cognitive dissonance when these idols will have did you have days off not as many as they should, but they do have them and like they’ll go to their hometowns and like the companies will put out statements like, “They’re going home, please, if you see them, leave them alone. This is their personal time, they’re not working,” etc. I always feel this cognitive dissonance like, “Okay, yeah, they said that, but why are you having to say that?” Like, that’s the question that we all need to be asking, you know? Because yeah, there are wild people who will do wild things in service of their fandom that is encouraged by the companies. Like, nobody wants to talk about it, but sasaengs, which for listeners who don’t know are extremely obsessive fans, like stalker level fans who do like really scary things to try and get close to their idols essentially. But yeah, like the companies that curate this environment that allows for that, and it’s easy to point and laugh and be like, “Haha, sasaengs.” But having pages like yours and BTS, abolition memes that say like, “No, it kind of starts with us.” And also is because of the company’s like, you have to check your relationship with your idols here at this point. And we have to have those conversations now. Because saucepans at some point, we’re just normal people.

Grace
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And it kind of goes into the fact that we end up policing each other and like, saying, what constitutes a fan? But yeah, it really does boil back down to the industry. We’re kind of just all witnessing and engaging with it.

Delia
And you know, then you have to analyze like, what is your culpability? You have to have those conversations which are hard to have. But I think important, what has been the most surprising thing to you navigating these conversations in fandom?

Grace
there are definitely fans that definitely don’t want to hear it or feel like cuz I am like taking apart their idol. But more that I’ve heard is just you know fans are like saying like, “Really, thank you for saying this. No one is saying this.” No one is, you know, having this conversation about the surveillance of idols or how we as a fandom are contributing to the exploitation or like commodification of idols. Honestly, I can only think of, you know, a few accounts like mines and btsabolitionmemes that really break down these issues and criticalbtsreader. Like there’s not a lot of us. It’s not surprising, but it’s also like, I wish, what we share, and what we kind of put out in the world is also part of the ARMY universe, because sometimes it feels like you’re so isolated. You’re kind of speaking from a platform and no one’s listening. But there are there definitely are fans that are critically minded.

Delia
I hope in time that changes, but it is something to be said about fandom that as we’ve had this conversation, I’ve had specific instances in my mind, but I’m like, “Oh, I don’t want to make anybody mad by saying that time, this specific idol did this specific thing,” you know. Because it’s hard because you aren’t coming from that place. But it’s been such the norm and K-pop fandom that, to say anything negative is to personally attack your personal favorite idol. And that’s a personal attack on you, you know. But I think that, like you said, I think that changing I think there are a lot of us who were in K-pop fandom, are in K-pop fandom, who’be just quietly been like, “I wish somebody would talk about how weird this is or how bad this is.” And so I think as we see, you know, it’s kind of goes to the conversation about how representation is important. But even in fandom, like if you see people saying the things that you’ve been thinking all along, it makes you braver to say them so I think things will keep trending in this direction. Fingers crossed.

Grace
Yes, I hope so.

Delia
I’m sure it gets hard at times, but I wonder what it is that keeps you in K-pop fandom and in army in general?

Grace
Sometimes I need to take social media breaks. It can be a lot, especially with the push back. I do get a lot of hate DMs sometimes and it’s it’s frustrating. But no, I definitely get more love and I think just the friends that I’ve made through this fandom and like, who I can really relate with and connect with have kind of made this experience much more enjoyable and like pushed me to you know, continue to do this. I feel like I’m more closer with my ARMY friends than like in real life. And yes, BTS has brought us all together, but it’s become a vehicle for us to really identify and like connect and build together and really call out things that aren’t okay. There’s definitely been some form of solidarity there. And BTS has definitely changed in their chapter, too. I do appreciate their solo music. I feel like I’ve learned more about them versus their OT7 songs.

Delia
Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah.

Grace
Like Agust D. And–

Delia
Yes! I was like, “Is she going to say it?”

Grace
Yes! D-Day is like– Oh my gosh.

Delia
Love. Love. I’m obsessed.

Grace
Yeah, Yoongi is definitely one of my biases. And–

Delia
Same

Grace
I just appreciate his vulnerability and like how he, you know, confronts capitalism confronts–

Delia
I love that man.

Grace
Yeah I know. I love him, too. So much. And I know so much in his like, I guess his title track Haegeum, he talks about slaves to capitalism, slaves to like, seeing like how capitalism as a structure like, you know, that’s something that we need to break down. He comes from a background where he definitely struggled, but was able to open up through music, that particular album has been a very, like emotional experience. I identify strongly with that album, as well. They give me strength a lot.

Delia
And I so agree. Again, he’s one of my biases, so obviously, I am going to be biased. Speaking on it, however, you know, having these solo projects, where all of them are able to have this vulnerability, but especially Yoongi because I find that his vulnerability isn’t in this like… I mean, none of them are, but like his is specifically not packaged or curated in a way that’s meant to be palatable to the listener. I think he’s processing his emotions and what he’s going through in a very real and raw way that is authentic to him. And you can tell is cathartic to him, you know? Yeah. And I think that’s a beautiful thing for fans to see, especially when you talk about his commentary on capitalism coming from his position of power being part of the biggest K-pop group in the world. Which K-pop, again, even if you love it, is a capitalist machine. Like that is.. the power of that! Like, honestly, the fact– some of the stuff he says, I’m like, the fact that he can say that, that’s wild. Yeah, seeing them in their, I don’t know we want to call it, like mature era, if you want to call it that, has been very special, I think, if you are an ARMY fan, especially if you’re an older one. Like the way I got into, I didn’t mention that, the way I got into BTS in the first place. My little sister who were 10 years apart. She’s been ARMY since like, 2014 or something. So like, I’ve always been aware. And then one day, I was just like, “You know what? She loves BTS, and she has good taste, and I know of K-pop and there’s no reason why I don’t like it. I just haven’t spent the time. So let me just watch the BTS videos really quick.” And then I saw the music video for “DNA” and like, my whole world shifted.

Grace
Yes.

Delia
But coming to it as an older person, I think is different than like my little sister who kind of grew up with them. And so seeing them, even though I knew. I’m like “Y’all are my age, I know the experiences you’re having” But that’s not necessarily the stuff they’re putting out. Not say it was childish or anything like that. But just seeing this more mature era that I think aligns more closely with how I imagined being similar in age they’re actually, having lived experiences has been so fun and rewarding. It’s made me more engaged with K-pop fandom in general recently, because like I said, I had to take a step back for all because it’s hard out here. But with that said, well is a lot. What do you wish that folks on the outside understood about K-pop fandom?

Grace
I think that we’re not a monolith. I wish people understood that it’s just more than like us being loyal to seven boys. We have real conversations. Like there’s PhDs in this fandom, like actually doing their dissertations on BTS, and like fan culture and fandom. There’s so many strengths and talents and fandom, that it’s really amazing to see. Yes, people do edits and stuff and memes. But it’s so much more than that. We really are a community of so many different people. And like, yes, we come together for this band. But I think we all bring something different to the table and bring a very diverse set of perspectives. And like we talked about, you know, we hope that the critical thinking minded ARMY like grows to be something much more like I do definitely see that coming. Because I think the outside are like, what they call the locals, they see the fanaticism or the bands like showing up at the airport. But it’s just more than that. We really bring a lot to what K-pop is all about. And we’re not tied or beholden to these industries. We’re actually trying to challenge them, trying to make them you know, be better. I’m not sure if we’ll make, you know, listeners of this podcast more into BTS or K-pop, but like, I hope. I hope so. Like, there’s definitely a really interesting world that exists through this music.

Delia
Yeah, I was gonna say you’re so right about the framing of K-op. And I’m like, people will report on, “Oh, they apparently like organized around Black Lives Matter. It’s wild how these people are so boy, crazy” You can do that. And it’s like, it can be both and you know, like, we’re crazy about these particular boys. But that does not preclude us from doing all the rest of this. The amount of professionals in this space. Why do you think we’re able to organize the way that we do? It’s because we have people who are often professional organizers for nonprofits and their day jobs. We have lawyers, we have PhDs, like you were saying. Like you’re in graduate school. Like there are people– Not that that you– anybody can affect change. You don’t need all of that. But I don’t think that the locals, as you said, understand it is not only just people that you know that are in this fandom. It is every echelon of people that you can think of, exist in this fandom, I think is the thing that I would want people to understand. You go to the doctor’s office, your doctor might be ARMY, like, you literally never know.

Grace
Exactly, exactly. We live complex lives out of the fandom and insight.

Delia
For sure. I remember, this is a different K-pop group, I had a mutual and I found out she had like a husband and kids like we’ve been moots for a while. And I was like, “Oh, I mean, cool.” But like had no idea because again, we live these lives outside of and you just would never know. I do think it’s similar to just bring up Harry Potter because like yikes at what, you know, that woman has done. But I do find it similar how people rallied around and like really inspired by the stories. And then eventually, you see organizations like the HPA, which is now called Fandom Forward for clear reasons. But like organized to affect change, because they were so inspired by those stories. And so I’m hoping that’s the direction K-pop fandom is going and that’s what it seems like to me, like we’re so inspired by the music in some cases with these K-pop groups, and especially the philanthropic efforts of others like BTS, that it inspires you like, you know, what we’re gonna go forth. And I think it’s actually also really similar. You have companies like HYBE who do try and skirt that line of like ethics as far as what they put out sometimes. And the fans being like, “No, BTS wrote songs about this and talked about this, and these are the morals that I’m taking in. So we’re gonna hold you to that standard.” I love that. And I hope it continues. Do you have any other hopes for the future of K-pop fandom?

Grace
Like I really appreciate HYBE released this dynamic pricing and like increasing the ticket sale for concerts, and I appreciate how there’s kind of this new set of organizing that’s happening to kind of push back that extreme iteration of capitalism that this industry capitalizes on. So yeah, it definitely makes me hopeful that this issue and many others will come forth and we already have a set community who can really push back on the things that this industry does, because it’s not always peachy there are times where they really are just waiting fans and

Delia
Oh, for sure.

Grace
We need to, you know, have our voices heard and really put in the work to show that you know, we actually care about these artists and we don’t want people to lose access to them because of cost and because of inaccessibility

Delia
Recently, fairly recently, somebody put out a little mini essay about how these pricing structures that have existed in the past and like how expensive things are and all this stuff encourages sasaengs like by cutting off access. Like “Oh, here’s the intimacy but,” dangling it in front of them like, “Oh but at a cost.” Those are the things we’re talking about we’re saying like these companies it’s curate this environment that creates unsafe conditions for the idols. So yeah, I was really happy with the dynamic pricing I hope things keep turning in this way as far as pricing structures and how these companies think of the fans also. Lastly, because we said we hope people come to listen to BTS or you know, other K-pop groups are cool too but especially BTS. If you are a listener who isn’t into BTS, or just casually aware like you heard Dynamite or whatever. For those fans to try and get them into BTS more, what do you think is one BTS on everyone should have on their playlist?

Grace
Oh so hard.

Delia
Okay, you can do a couple of things you need to do a couple

Grace
I really like, so it’s one of their b-side songs. “Paradise,” and,

Delia
Okay.

Grace
It’s funny because it’s actually a song that’s founded on like Marxist principles and like anti capitalist it’s basically saying like, you don’t have to work more than you have to. But everyone loves “Black Swan.” Like it’s a beautiful song. The choreography is like, gorgeous Jimin is a professional dancer and out dance was that song by far

Delia
For sure. The talent.

Grace
The talent. Let’s just listen to all them honestly. Yeah, like, “Paradise,” “Black Swan.” Yeah.

Delia
Well, that’s all we had before we go, was there anything else that you wish that we had more time for?

Grace
No, I just really enjoyed this. I had so much fun talking about BTS and things I feel like I couldn’t talk about they think about all the time. It’s really cool to kind of share in a podcast form.

Delia
I was also very appreciative to finally have a section to be like, “No, this is the BTS hour. Let’s talk about it!” Because it’s been in spurts, but, you know, I try not to derail. I’m like, “Okay, keep it in. Keep it in.” Well, thank you for joining me so much. Can you please tell the good folks where they can find you and what you’ve got in the works currently in?

Grace
Sure. So my Instagram handle is at joons j-o-o-n-s melanin drop.

Delia
Honestly, I can’t believe I just said joonsmelanindrop. We didn’t even talk about the name. Like can we? The fact that you called it joonsmelanindrop? Well, I die.

Grace
Yeah, I know. So basically named you and the leader of the group has faced a lot of colorism in his trajectory of being entitled like been called like the ugliest member. And I feel like that also bordered towards anti Blackness. And I think as till now, all his photos, the melanin is really shining. And I’m really proud of him. Because before it, he would really like use a lot of filters to kind of downplay his skin tone. And the industry really does whitewash the photos and erase their like natural skin tone. And it’s such a struggle, I think it was more of a appreciation about, “Hey, we need to really appreciate the skin that they’re in.” And it really is beautiful to see idols that are melanated. And like that, in itself is a conversation topic and a backtrack into how perception of beauty in South Korea really need to be talked about. And this look is culture. So yeah, kind of branched out of that in wanting to kind of appreciate his melanin and yeah, but then it just grew up just being a critical stan account.

Delia
No, I’m obsessed. Yeah, I love it. I’m obsessed. Do you have anything in the works that you want people to know about over there?

Grace
I’m thinking about like, this intersection of fashion and K-pop– so I’ve been reading this book I don’t remember the full name was, like anti capitalist form of fashion and I read like a lot of anti capitalist texts and like, try to reference it to K-pop. So that’s usually in the works. Also thinking about sasaeng culture. That’s definitely something that I want to delve deeper into, also.

Delia
From a critical lens not-

Grace
From a critical lens! Like, “No, you should be a sasaeng.” No.

Delia
Oh, well that’s great. Definitely, definitely, definitely go check out her account. I will also either put them in the show notes like I said, or listen more accounts because there is so many incredible people doing this work if I could like spend hours– Maybe a podcast just dedicated to that. I’ll throw that idea if any of y’all want to make a podcast dedicated to that that’d be very very cool. Cuz it’s great work being done over there. If you’re new to K-pop fandom or new to BTS haven’t listened to I urge you to give it a chance because there’s like I said, great work being done over there. But that said, thank you all so much for listening. If you are a BTS fan, I do want to know who’s your bias? Please tell me. You can let me know @culturexpodcast on Twitter or IG. Even if it’s OT7. Like if it’s OT7 I would love to know. But yeah, until next time, keep it chill. Keep a nerdy. Borahae!

Grace
Borahae!

June 19 2023

[7] Finding Joy in Activism Through Coalition

[7] Finding Joy in Activism Through Coalition feat. Rohan Zhou-Lee of the Blasian March

Listen on...

Watch on YouTube

When you buy books through the above links, I earn a small commission. Thanks y’all!

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In this episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews founder of the Blasian March, Rohan Zhou-Lee! We discuss the importance of Black and Asian coalition, finding your role in activist spaces, creating our own narratives, being creators in different cultural spaces, book publishing, and more! How do you show up in community work?

Things discussed in this episode:

(Some links of the links below are affiliate links. When you make a purchase through those links, I earn a small commission. Thanks y’all!)

Activists: Bayard Rustin; BLM Founders: Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Ayọ Tometi; Grace Lee Boggs; Kyoshi Kuromiya; Yuri Kochiyama
Artist: ⁠Adan Palermo⁠
Books: *⁠America Is in the Heart⁠ by Carlos Bulosan, *⁠Social Change Now: A Guide for Reflection and Connection⁠ by Deepa Iyer
89.6% of anti-Asian incidents in 2020 were perpetrated by white individuals ⁠Source: Virulent Hate project⁠
⁠Social Change Ecosystem Map and information⁠

Guest

This episode’s guest, is Rohan Zhou-Lee of the Blasian March! You can find them in these places:

Blasian March – ⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠
Rohan – ⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

Find us online:

⁠ Site⁠ | ⁠Patreon⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

Credits:

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia ⁠Personal Twitter⁠ | ⁠Personal Instagram⁠ | ⁠Personal Site⁠

About Culture by Culture:

Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

June 5 2023

[6] Living in the Rock Scene and the Anime Space

[6] Living in the Rock Scene and the Anime Space feat. Sheila the Band

Anime theme playlist inspired by the episode!:

Listen on...

Watch on YouTube

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In this episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews Sheila the Band! We discuss anime fandom journeys, musical styles, Black alternative rock bands, being creators in different cultural spaces, and more! What is your favorite band?

Favorite Anime Themes:

“Crazy Noisy Bizarre Town” – JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure, “Bouken Desho Desho” – The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, “Akuma No Ko” – Attack on Titan, “O2” – Code Geass, “Pleasure” – Fruits Baskets, “Every Heart” – Inuyasha, “Nightmare” & “What’s Up People” – Death Note

Things discussed in this episode:

Anime & Creators: Demon Slayer, My Hero Academia, Michiko & Hatchin, Revolutionary Girl Utena, JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure, Afro Anime, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Attack on Titan, Code Geass, Fruits Baskets, Inuyasha, Death Note, Sailor Moon
Bands & Artists: Meet Me @ the Altar, Cinnamon Babe (”Rock ‘N’ Roll Is Black”), Straight Line Stitch, Mitski, Phoebie Bridgers, Dodie
#Blacktober
Famous folks: Megan thee Stallion
LiSA – Gurenge (紅蓮華) / THE FIRST TAKE
“Hinata Isn’t Black” afrococoapuffs
Punk Black
“Tremendous Tina” Sheila
Vocaloid

Guest

This episode’s guest, is Sheila the Band! You can find them in these places:

Site | Instagram | TikTok

Find us online:

Site | Patreon | Instagram | Twitter

Credits

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: DeliaPersonal Twitter | Personal Instagram | Personal Site

About Culture by Culture

Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

May 29 2023

[5] Language Learning and Cultural Navigation

[5] Language Learning and Cultural Navigation w/ Sarah F. Phillips, PhD feat. Sarah K. Phillips, PhD

Listen on...

Watch on YouTube

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In this episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews neurolinguist, Sarah F. Phillips, PhD. We discuss language learning in the age of pop-culture phenomena, growing up Blasian and bilingual, barriers to language learning for Black folks, the importance of cultural understanding, and advice for folks starting their language learning journeys. What languages are you learning or do you want to learn?

Guest:

This episode’s guest, is Sarah F. Phillips, PhD! You can find her in these places:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

Find us online:

⁠Site⁠ | ⁠Patreon⁠ | ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠

Credits:

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia ⁠Personal Site⁠ | ⁠Personal Instagram⁠ | ⁠Personal Threads⁠ | ⁠Personal Twitter⁠

About Culture by Culture:

Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

1
00:00:00,000 –> 00:00:04,560
Hey there, welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi-dimensional exploration of Black and

2
00:00:04,560 –> 00:00:06,440
Asian pop cultural ties.

3
00:00:06,440 –> 00:00:11,480
I’m your language learning host, Delia, and today I’m joined by neurolinguist Dr. Sarah

4
00:00:11,480 –> 00:00:12,480
Phillips.

5
00:00:12,480 –> 00:00:13,480
Hi, Sarah.

6
00:00:13,480 –> 00:00:14,960
Hello, how are you?

7
00:00:14,960 –> 00:00:15,960
I’m very good.

8
00:00:15,960 –> 00:00:17,560
I’m very excited to have you on.

9
00:00:17,560 –> 00:00:19,200
Well, thanks for having me.

10
00:00:19,200 –> 00:00:20,880
Tell the folks a little bit about yourself.

11
00:00:20,880 –> 00:00:22,440
I know you’re a neurolinguist.

12
00:00:22,440 –> 00:00:26,040
Maybe you can say what is neurolinguistics for the folks out there?

13
00:00:26,040 –> 00:00:27,040
Sure.

14
00:00:27,040 –> 00:00:31,400
So, I am a neurolinguist, which is in essence someone who is interested in studying how

15
00:00:31,400 –> 00:00:34,120
our brains support language functions.

16
00:00:34,120 –> 00:00:38,960
So what parts of the brain are responsible for doing things like comprehending language,

17
00:00:38,960 –> 00:00:45,400
producing language, and how the brain as a system really works to support that, especially

18
00:00:45,400 –> 00:00:50,000
when you’re doing things normally and in healthy scenarios.

19
00:00:50,000 –> 00:00:52,600
But I also do research that has clinical implications.

20
00:00:52,600 –> 00:00:58,040
So for people who suffer from things like aphasia or some kind of processing deficit,

21
00:00:58,040 –> 00:01:02,880
people who also suffer from specific language impairments or maybe even dyslexia, there

22
00:01:02,880 –> 00:01:08,800
are a lot of avenues that my research can tie into in people’s quality of life day to

23
00:01:08,800 –> 00:01:09,800
day.

24
00:01:09,800 –> 00:01:14,560
But my primary focus is to understand the typical healthy brain and how the typical

25
00:01:14,560 –> 00:01:16,640
healthy brain supports language.

26
00:01:16,640 –> 00:01:19,000
That is so fascinating.

27
00:01:19,000 –> 00:01:25,480
So my listeners know basically how this came to be was Sarah followed culture by culture.

28
00:01:25,480 –> 00:01:26,560
And I love languages.

29
00:01:26,560 –> 00:01:28,960
I love the idea of the study of language.

30
00:01:28,960 –> 00:01:33,860
I’m not a linguist to be clear, but I just have always found them very fascinating.

31
00:01:33,860 –> 00:01:36,920
And so I saw that she was a neurolinguist.

32
00:01:36,920 –> 00:01:38,720
I immediately went into her DMs.

33
00:01:38,720 –> 00:01:42,160
I feel like I probably jump scared her because it was immediate.

34
00:01:42,160 –> 00:01:45,120
Like as soon as the notification came there, I was like, oh my gosh.

35
00:01:45,120 –> 00:01:46,120
It was pretty quick.

36
00:01:46,120 –> 00:01:47,120
I’m not going to lie.

37
00:01:47,120 –> 00:01:50,880
And it’s funny too, because I was like, you know, we’ve all done the thing where it’s

38
00:01:50,880 –> 00:01:53,120
like late in the evening, we’re starting to wind down.

39
00:01:53,120 –> 00:01:56,980
Even though all the best advice tells you like, don’t be on your phone right before

40
00:01:56,980 –> 00:01:57,980
you go to bed.

41
00:01:57,980 –> 00:02:00,680
I was definitely on my phone while getting ready to go to bed.

42
00:02:00,680 –> 00:02:02,040
And I’m scrolling and I’m scrolling.

43
00:02:02,040 –> 00:02:07,040
And I think you had a post about black and Asian relationships.

44
00:02:07,040 –> 00:02:09,400
And I think this was, I think it was Malcolm X.

45
00:02:09,400 –> 00:02:10,760
Yes, and Yuri.

46
00:02:10,760 –> 00:02:12,640
And I was just like, oh, this is so cool.

47
00:02:12,640 –> 00:02:16,540
Like I know that this is a thing, but I didn’t know the depths of it.

48
00:02:16,540 –> 00:02:18,120
And it was so well explained.

49
00:02:18,120 –> 00:02:19,120
And so I liked it.

50
00:02:19,120 –> 00:02:21,000
I was like, this is cool.

51
00:02:21,000 –> 00:02:22,000
I like this kind of content.

52
00:02:22,000 –> 00:02:23,800
Let me follow this person.

53
00:02:23,800 –> 00:02:29,080
And then yeah, pretty quick after that, I got a DM and I was like, whoa, that was, that

54
00:02:29,080 –> 00:02:30,080
was fast.

55
00:02:30,080 –> 00:02:34,600
I do usually try to be more chill, but I was so excited because also you, how would you

56
00:02:34,600 –> 00:02:35,600
say you identify?

57
00:02:35,600 –> 00:02:36,600
Oh, I’m Blazian.

58
00:02:36,600 –> 00:02:37,600
Cool.

59
00:02:37,600 –> 00:02:38,600
She’s also Blazian.

60
00:02:38,600 –> 00:02:40,560
And so I was like, I had to make it happen.

61
00:02:40,560 –> 00:02:41,560
I had to.

62
00:02:41,560 –> 00:02:43,680
You can’t let the moment slip by because what if they unfollow?

63
00:02:43,680 –> 00:02:44,680
You never know.

64
00:02:44,680 –> 00:02:45,680
You got to be quick.

65
00:02:45,680 –> 00:02:48,120
So okay, you explain what neuro linguistics are.

66
00:02:48,120 –> 00:02:53,280
So originally, I had this episode idea and I talked to Sarah about this originally.

67
00:02:53,280 –> 00:02:57,640
I was curious if there was any data on like language learning trends in the black community.

68
00:02:57,640 –> 00:03:00,440
Unsurprisingly, not really, which is why I couldn’t find any.

69
00:03:00,440 –> 00:03:04,760
I’ve done a lot of research just trying to find it because I had noticed at various HBCUs

70
00:03:04,760 –> 00:03:09,280
we’re seeing more like Korean language offerings and just kind of a diversification of the

71
00:03:09,280 –> 00:03:11,120
language offerings available at some HBCUs.

72
00:03:11,120 –> 00:03:12,120
I know not all.

73
00:03:12,120 –> 00:03:16,200
I know there are a lot of listeners who probably go to various HBCUs and are like, not at mine.

74
00:03:16,200 –> 00:03:17,560
But that’s a trend that I’ve noticed.

75
00:03:17,560 –> 00:03:22,120
I wondered if there was data to speak to that and unsurprisingly, no.

76
00:03:22,120 –> 00:03:27,600
But what Sarah told me, which was really good perspective, what is the issue if there is

77
00:03:27,600 –> 00:03:30,160
any issue with framing it as?

78
00:03:30,160 –> 00:03:33,760
Is black language learning trending in a certain direction?

79
00:03:33,760 –> 00:03:34,760
Yeah.

80
00:03:34,760 –> 00:03:40,640
So I think we have to take a step back and really think about why is it that we don’t

81
00:03:40,640 –> 00:03:47,480
see a lot of black people, particularly in the United States, learning another language?

82
00:03:47,480 –> 00:03:52,780
And I think it comes from, at least anecdotally, from a place of generational trauma.

83
00:03:52,780 –> 00:03:56,800
We come from enslaved Africans.

84
00:03:56,800 –> 00:04:00,840
We are the descendants of enslaved Africans where we’ve had our language stripped away,

85
00:04:00,840 –> 00:04:03,720
taken from us and been forced to learn.

86
00:04:03,720 –> 00:04:10,440
I really shouldn’t say forced, but we didn’t really have much of an option in terms of

87
00:04:10,440 –> 00:04:13,800
using one of the languages that was prevalent through slavery.

88
00:04:13,800 –> 00:04:17,600
Because if you think about it, you have people coming from all different tribal communities

89
00:04:17,600 –> 00:04:22,800
speaking all different languages, all being forced onto a boat, chained together, brought

90
00:04:22,800 –> 00:04:24,280
to the United States.

91
00:04:24,280 –> 00:04:26,440
You’re getting bought to the highest bidder.

92
00:04:26,440 –> 00:04:31,000
So you don’t know that people are being bought necessarily by tribal community.

93
00:04:31,000 –> 00:04:35,800
They’re just being bought based off of the needs of the industry at that time.

94
00:04:35,800 –> 00:04:40,200
And so people are not getting selected so that way they can stay a community.

95
00:04:40,200 –> 00:04:44,200
And when you have a bunch of people who don’t necessarily speak the same language together,

96
00:04:44,200 –> 00:04:49,200
but you need to survive for the sake of your own humanity, you’re going to then become

97
00:04:49,200 –> 00:04:51,400
linguistically very creative.

98
00:04:51,400 –> 00:04:56,480
And that’s what we’ve started to unpack in terms of historically what has happened with

99
00:04:56,480 –> 00:05:00,080
African-American English or African-American language.

100
00:05:00,080 –> 00:05:06,720
Then now you situate us in a time period where our language is cool, but it’s not considered

101
00:05:06,720 –> 00:05:07,720
proper English.

102
00:05:07,720 –> 00:05:14,520
And that’s because it’s not mainstream or standardized, let’s call it WASP-y American

103
00:05:14,520 –> 00:05:15,520
English.

104
00:05:15,520 –> 00:05:21,480
WASP meaning white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant-y American English.

105
00:05:21,480 –> 00:05:27,080
And so when you have a group of people who’ve had their mother languages stripped away,

106
00:05:27,080 –> 00:05:32,680
now we have developed a linguistic system that works for us, that is identified and

107
00:05:32,680 –> 00:05:37,960
deeply connected to our culture and has diversified over time as we’ve migrated to different parts

108
00:05:37,960 –> 00:05:40,880
of the US and developed our own little pockets and communities.

109
00:05:40,880 –> 00:05:44,520
Now you’re telling us our language is cool enough for a rap song, but it’s not cool enough

110
00:05:44,520 –> 00:05:49,800
for people to treat it as its own legitimate language.

111
00:05:49,800 –> 00:05:53,080
That’s already taxing on the individual.

112
00:05:53,080 –> 00:05:55,560
It’s already taxing on Black bodies.

113
00:05:55,560 –> 00:06:01,880
And then the idea of then learning another language when you still have anti-Blackness

114
00:06:01,880 –> 00:06:04,400
in all parts of the world.

115
00:06:04,400 –> 00:06:09,560
So for example, this idea about Asian languages and people learning Asian languages, in particular

116
00:06:09,560 –> 00:06:14,600
Black people learning Asian languages, you have to remember that a lot of Asian communities

117
00:06:14,600 –> 00:06:19,200
operate in this very homogeneous kind of community or communities.

118
00:06:19,200 –> 00:06:23,600
And so they’re used to people who look a specific type of way speaking the kind of language

119
00:06:23,600 –> 00:06:25,160
that they speak.

120
00:06:25,160 –> 00:06:30,560
And now you have, of course, some people who are very welcoming and embracing, but not

121
00:06:30,560 –> 00:06:34,800
all Asian people are going to be welcoming and embracing because they’re going to have

122
00:06:34,800 –> 00:06:40,900
their own internal biases against Blackness that also is prevalent in Asian cultures.

123
00:06:40,900 –> 00:06:47,500
So now you’ve got a Black body who unfortunately does not have the same linguistic connections

124
00:06:47,500 –> 00:06:49,040
to their ancestry.

125
00:06:49,040 –> 00:06:53,120
They’ve developed a linguistic system that’s been taught to them as being insufficient

126
00:06:53,120 –> 00:06:54,960
or lacking in some way.

127
00:06:54,960 –> 00:06:58,640
And then you try to learn another language that’s already going to treat you differently

128
00:06:58,640 –> 00:07:00,480
because of the way that you look.

129
00:07:00,480 –> 00:07:03,160
It puts you in a lose, lose, lose situation.

130
00:07:03,160 –> 00:07:07,360
And it can be very discouraging, especially when we think about the kinds of social burdens

131
00:07:07,360 –> 00:07:13,460
that code switching can have on individuals who have to manage this constantly.

132
00:07:13,460 –> 00:07:17,480
So I think for that reason, we don’t see a lot of it.

133
00:07:17,480 –> 00:07:22,220
And I think it’s mostly because at least anecdotally, just from what I’ve observed and even in my

134
00:07:22,220 –> 00:07:28,320
own experiences as someone who grew up bilingual, that it’s not always advantageous and it can

135
00:07:28,320 –> 00:07:29,840
be an uphill battle.

136
00:07:29,840 –> 00:07:33,000
That’s essentially what you said in the DMs when I asked you about it.

137
00:07:33,000 –> 00:07:38,520
And I was that much more interested because it’s so true that there are barriers in the

138
00:07:38,520 –> 00:07:43,640
way to Black people, especially in America, learning other languages.

139
00:07:43,640 –> 00:07:48,200
And this podcast is about the points of connections between Black and Asian cultures through the

140
00:07:48,200 –> 00:07:49,840
lens of pop culture mostly.

141
00:07:49,840 –> 00:07:53,940
However, I think it’s just as important and just as interesting to look at those barriers

142
00:07:53,940 –> 00:07:57,280
of connection because they’re not barriers we’re seeking out, right?

143
00:07:57,280 –> 00:07:59,520
We’re not rejecting Asian languages.

144
00:07:59,520 –> 00:08:04,320
I think in general, I’ve seen data that says there has been, at least I’ve seen data regarding

145
00:08:04,320 –> 00:08:06,600
Korean language learning across the board, if you will.

146
00:08:06,600 –> 00:08:11,280
I don’t know if languages can be on trend, but that’s the takeaway.

147
00:08:11,280 –> 00:08:16,120
Korean is definitely on trend and it’s been on trend for a while.

148
00:08:16,120 –> 00:08:21,440
Korean dramas, Korean pop music since, shoot, when I was in middle school was becoming on

149
00:08:21,440 –> 00:08:27,760
trend and it’s just grown exponentially as we are entering what is now what third, fourth,

150
00:08:27,760 –> 00:08:30,160
fifth generation K-pop groups.

151
00:08:30,160 –> 00:08:31,960
I don’t even know what generation we’re in now.

152
00:08:31,960 –> 00:08:34,520
I don’t even know all the way though.

153
00:08:34,520 –> 00:08:38,200
I know fourth is like getting kind of older, so we might be going into fifth.

154
00:08:38,200 –> 00:08:39,200
Unclear to me.

155
00:08:39,200 –> 00:08:44,880
I mean, I was around for like first generation K-pop, like not to date myself, but I am that

156
00:08:44,880 –> 00:08:45,880
person.

157
00:08:45,880 –> 00:08:51,280
And it’s funny too, because like as a Black and Korean American, one of the things that

158
00:08:51,280 –> 00:08:56,880
was I think unusual in my upbringing is that my mom would not allow me to think of myself

159
00:08:56,880 –> 00:08:58,160
as not being Korean.

160
00:08:58,160 –> 00:09:01,320
Like I went to Hangarakgyo, so I had to go to Korean language school.

161
00:09:01,320 –> 00:09:02,920
I learned how to read and write.

162
00:09:02,920 –> 00:09:07,000
We would go and visit my mom’s side of the family almost every summer, if not every other

163
00:09:07,000 –> 00:09:09,600
summer growing up through my childhood.

164
00:09:09,600 –> 00:09:16,120
So going to Korea and speaking Korean became necessary because my mom’s side of the family,

165
00:09:16,120 –> 00:09:18,000
like my grandmother didn’t speak English.

166
00:09:18,000 –> 00:09:23,880
My great aunts and their children, like nobody else spoke English except for maybe a few

167
00:09:23,880 –> 00:09:27,080
words here or there and like, hello and thank you.

168
00:09:27,080 –> 00:09:32,340
And so for me, it became very important to learn Korean, even though I would go into

169
00:09:32,340 –> 00:09:41,000
spaces and be ostracized or felt to be different despite my mom’s efforts in trying to ensure

170
00:09:41,000 –> 00:09:42,640
that yes, you are Korean.

171
00:09:42,640 –> 00:09:46,080
Like you’re going to learn how to make kimchi and you’re going to learn how to speak Korean

172
00:09:46,080 –> 00:09:49,920
and you’re going to learn how to read and write and do all the things that a Korean

173
00:09:49,920 –> 00:09:51,560
woman would learn how to do.

174
00:09:51,560 –> 00:09:56,840
Like your life motto is like life is suffering.

175
00:09:56,840 –> 00:10:01,000
And that’s a very Korean ajumma thing to say.

176
00:10:01,000 –> 00:10:06,080
But you know, she wanted me to grow up knowing where I come from and being able to connect

177
00:10:06,080 –> 00:10:07,080
with my family.

178
00:10:07,080 –> 00:10:09,880
And for that reason, I had to learn how to speak Korean.

179
00:10:09,880 –> 00:10:15,200
But there were plenty of instances where I’m outside of my family and I’m using Korean

180
00:10:15,200 –> 00:10:19,400
and people just look at me not knowing what to do and being very confused.

181
00:10:19,400 –> 00:10:22,800
Sometimes even being aggressive or very negative.

182
00:10:22,800 –> 00:10:27,640
And unfortunately, it has taken me years to learn contextually why they might feel that

183
00:10:27,640 –> 00:10:33,000
way because American GIs in Korea, you know, in case you haven’t read the latest New York

184
00:10:33,000 –> 00:10:38,080
Times article that recently came out, there was actually a lot of misconduct happening

185
00:10:38,080 –> 00:10:43,120
between American GIs and Korean civilians, in particular Korean women.

186
00:10:43,120 –> 00:10:49,680
And so while my mom was one of the few who did actually marry a black American GI and

187
00:10:49,680 –> 00:10:52,320
they were married until my dad passed away.

188
00:10:52,320 –> 00:10:55,600
So they were married for over 30 years.

189
00:10:55,600 –> 00:10:57,080
That wasn’t common.

190
00:10:57,080 –> 00:10:58,800
That wasn’t the norm.

191
00:10:58,800 –> 00:11:05,280
And unfortunately, there was this very negative reputation of American GIs, not just black,

192
00:11:05,280 –> 00:11:10,720
but also black GIs in Korea, such that people didn’t know what to do with me and had very

193
00:11:10,720 –> 00:11:12,200
negative feelings.

194
00:11:12,200 –> 00:11:18,880
And when you have people like Insumi and Yoon Mi-rae, these are black and Korean women in

195
00:11:18,880 –> 00:11:25,280
South Korea who are entertainers and very popular, even with those people existing and

196
00:11:25,280 –> 00:11:31,360
being readily accessible in that space, people didn’t see people like me as potentially being

197
00:11:31,360 –> 00:11:37,480
like that or having something to offer Korean people in the Korean community outside of

198
00:11:37,480 –> 00:11:39,160
the Korean diaspora.

199
00:11:39,160 –> 00:11:44,720
So it’s a strange space to be in when you’re a black person who doesn’t have the cultural

200
00:11:44,720 –> 00:11:50,240
ties and then also then wants to learn how to speak Korean because it is popular and

201
00:11:50,240 –> 00:11:56,240
Korean pop music is very catchy and the dramas are very exciting and they offer something

202
00:11:56,240 –> 00:11:59,240
different compared to what American TV shows offer.

203
00:11:59,240 –> 00:12:01,160
So I totally get why it’s popular.

204
00:12:01,160 –> 00:12:05,000
And if you can learn the language to then better understand the music and the dramas

205
00:12:05,000 –> 00:12:06,880
and all that kind of stuff, it’s inevitable.

206
00:12:06,880 –> 00:12:07,880
For sure.

207
00:12:07,880 –> 00:12:13,080
I know this podcast isn’t a critique on the military industrial complex, but if it were,

208
00:12:13,080 –> 00:12:16,120
that’s a big critique of the military industrial complex.

209
00:12:16,120 –> 00:12:18,320
Yeah, I have read that article.

210
00:12:18,320 –> 00:12:20,540
It is very common, unfortunately.

211
00:12:20,540 –> 00:12:25,640
And so I do see how it’s an uphill battle for black folks learning Korean.

212
00:12:25,640 –> 00:12:27,920
I will, full disclosure, I’m learning Korean.

213
00:12:27,920 –> 00:12:28,920
I’m not good at it.

214
00:12:28,920 –> 00:12:30,600
Don’t look at me.

215
00:12:30,600 –> 00:12:31,600
Don’t perceive me.

216
00:12:31,600 –> 00:12:34,040
However, even I feel trepidation entering spaces.

217
00:12:34,040 –> 00:12:37,360
I haven’t come across anything really negative personally.

218
00:12:37,360 –> 00:12:40,120
Thankfully, the school I’ve gone through been very positive.

219
00:12:40,120 –> 00:12:44,320
The people I’ve met have been really welcoming and really warm, but I know that’s not always

220
00:12:44,320 –> 00:12:45,320
the case.

221
00:12:45,320 –> 00:12:48,400
And there’s always trepidation when certain topics come up because, you know, when you’re

222
00:12:48,400 –> 00:12:51,880
learning, or ideally, I would say, if you’re learning Korean language, hopefully you’re

223
00:12:51,880 –> 00:12:55,640
also learning about Korean culture and not just grammar or learning to speak it.

224
00:12:55,640 –> 00:12:59,960
I find that learning languages in general, it’s very important to also learn the culture

225
00:12:59,960 –> 00:13:03,540
because language and culture go hand in hand, both in form of the other.

226
00:13:03,540 –> 00:13:05,020
But cultural topics will come up.

227
00:13:05,020 –> 00:13:08,280
And I’m always just like, I tense up because I’m like, is it the time?

228
00:13:08,280 –> 00:13:10,000
Is it now that it’s going to happen?

229
00:13:10,000 –> 00:13:12,080
And again, luckily for me, no.

230
00:13:12,080 –> 00:13:13,760
But there is opportunity for that to happen.

231
00:13:13,760 –> 00:13:16,960
And I can see that in and of itself, just having to deal with that.

232
00:13:16,960 –> 00:13:20,920
On top of everything we deal with as black people in America specifically, just it’s

233
00:13:20,920 –> 00:13:25,480
too much of a hurdle to overcome when you can learn something like, I don’t know, Spanish.

234
00:13:25,480 –> 00:13:26,480
It’s easily accessible.

235
00:13:26,480 –> 00:13:27,480
A lot of people speak it.

236
00:13:27,480 –> 00:13:29,180
Not that there, with every language there is.

237
00:13:29,180 –> 00:13:31,480
If you don’t know, racism is worldwide.

238
00:13:31,480 –> 00:13:33,960
But you know, there’s some languages I think you can learn with less.

239
00:13:33,960 –> 00:13:38,080
The lack of a better term baggage, I suppose, like you’re more welcomed into the space.

240
00:13:38,080 –> 00:13:40,680
Or maybe less unchecked baggage, I think.

241
00:13:40,680 –> 00:13:46,280
I think the interaction between Korean and black people is still very not really looked

242
00:13:46,280 –> 00:13:49,520
at like it’s a thing that I think we don’t speak about a lot.

243
00:13:49,520 –> 00:13:54,560
And I think some of that goes back into Korean culture and how they process trauma historically.

244
00:13:54,560 –> 00:13:57,640
But also black people just saying, okay, if y’all don’t want me here, I’m not going to

245
00:13:57,640 –> 00:13:58,640
be here.

246
00:13:58,640 –> 00:14:00,120
So it doesn’t get talked about much, I think.

247
00:14:00,120 –> 00:14:02,600
Yeah, there’s definitely trauma on both ends.

248
00:14:02,600 –> 00:14:07,400
And I think the younger the generation, the less of that trauma rears its ugly head.

249
00:14:07,400 –> 00:14:12,400
I think people are starting to be in a space now wanting to break some of these generational

250
00:14:12,400 –> 00:14:14,920
traumas, which is really encouraging.

251
00:14:14,920 –> 00:14:19,480
But I’m not going to lie, like don’t expect, you know, someone who’s ajumma or older, you

252
00:14:19,480 –> 00:14:24,280
know, a middle aged woman and older to be the most welcoming person.

253
00:14:24,280 –> 00:14:28,760
I mean, unless you’re meeting my mother, because she was married to a black man for over 30

254
00:14:28,760 –> 00:14:29,760
years.

255
00:14:29,760 –> 00:14:32,880
So I think that’s a very different perspective on black people.

256
00:14:32,880 –> 00:14:38,280
If you were to go to LA and interact with, let’s say, some Korean people in certain parts

257
00:14:38,280 –> 00:14:45,360
of LA where, you know, they went through the riots, if they went through any of those riots

258
00:14:45,360 –> 00:14:52,840
during the 90s, they might still be suffering from that direct trauma because tension between

259
00:14:52,840 –> 00:14:58,280
black and Korean Americans during that time period was very high.

260
00:14:58,280 –> 00:15:01,880
And so I like what you said, though, about language and culture.

261
00:15:01,880 –> 00:15:05,800
Like if you’re going to learn a language, learn the culture, which means learning a

262
00:15:05,800 –> 00:15:10,080
little bit, not just about eating customs or, you know, what to do when you’re moving

263
00:15:10,080 –> 00:15:13,720
in and out spaces, but also learn a little bit about the history of the people, because

264
00:15:13,720 –> 00:15:17,960
that’s when you’ll start to maybe understand why there may be tension.

265
00:15:17,960 –> 00:15:24,920
It doesn’t condone when people make xenophobic or racist, you know, actions or statements,

266
00:15:24,920 –> 00:15:29,480
but at least it puts you in a place of power because then you can understand why they might

267
00:15:29,480 –> 00:15:31,480
be reacting the way that they’re reacting.

268
00:15:31,480 –> 00:15:35,760
And then you can respond in a way that deescalates rather than escalates the situation.

269
00:15:35,760 –> 00:15:37,560
Oh, I totally agree.

270
00:15:37,560 –> 00:15:38,680
And I think it’s similar.

271
00:15:38,680 –> 00:15:43,360
We as black people in America, you know, when talking about African American language, all

272
00:15:43,360 –> 00:15:47,580
we’re doing is asking folks to understand like this is a legitimate language.

273
00:15:47,580 –> 00:15:49,140
We have legitimate grammar structures.

274
00:15:49,140 –> 00:15:51,620
Not that you need that to be legitimate, but we do.

275
00:15:51,620 –> 00:15:52,620
It does.

276
00:15:52,620 –> 00:15:53,960
It has legitimate grammar structures.

277
00:15:53,960 –> 00:15:54,960
There’s a history to it.

278
00:15:54,960 –> 00:15:56,820
There’s a reason why it sounds the way it does.

279
00:15:56,820 –> 00:15:58,880
There’s a reason it spread the way it did.

280
00:15:58,880 –> 00:16:01,580
All components of a language like any other.

281
00:16:01,580 –> 00:16:05,920
And if you learn that, I find that your understanding of black American history and culture is so

282
00:16:05,920 –> 00:16:06,920
much richer.

283
00:16:06,920 –> 00:16:10,900
And I feel like if people understood it, they could engage with us in a more deep way.

284
00:16:10,900 –> 00:16:14,480
And so I think if we’re asking folks to do that, it helps if you’re going into these

285
00:16:14,480 –> 00:16:17,880
language spaces, not just Korean, but any language, whatever language you’re learning

286
00:16:17,880 –> 00:16:18,880
at home.

287
00:16:18,880 –> 00:16:23,540
I think this is key to do because even if there isn’t as overt trauma between the two

288
00:16:23,540 –> 00:16:28,580
races as there is with Korean and black folk, there is always something because white supremacy

289
00:16:28,580 –> 00:16:30,940
has been exported internationally.

290
00:16:30,940 –> 00:16:33,340
Yeah, it’s everywhere.

291
00:16:33,340 –> 00:16:34,340
Unfortunately.

292
00:16:34,340 –> 00:16:35,700
I want to go back a little bit.

293
00:16:35,700 –> 00:16:38,580
You’re talking about growing up as a bilingual black person.

294
00:16:38,580 –> 00:16:42,500
I find it’s super interesting because I’ve had Malaysian friends in the past and I don’t

295
00:16:42,500 –> 00:16:44,500
know that they have that shared experience.

296
00:16:44,500 –> 00:16:50,140
Again, I won’t speak for them, but I’ve not heard them have their Asian parent be so adamant

297
00:16:50,140 –> 00:16:52,240
like, no, you are this.

298
00:16:52,240 –> 00:16:53,440
You’re going to learn the language.

299
00:16:53,440 –> 00:16:54,960
You are just like any other.

300
00:16:54,960 –> 00:16:58,740
And I’m just curious about what that experience was like, if you could expound a bit on it

301
00:16:58,740 –> 00:17:03,660
and if you know why your mom was so rooted in that.

302
00:17:03,660 –> 00:17:04,660
That’s a really good question.

303
00:17:04,660 –> 00:17:13,940
I have no idea why my mom was so focused on me knowing that I’m Korean because every parent

304
00:17:13,940 –> 00:17:17,420
does that little thing where when two parents fight, they’re like, that’s your daughter.

305
00:17:17,420 –> 00:17:18,420
No, that’s your daughter.

306
00:17:18,420 –> 00:17:19,420
You know what I mean?

307
00:17:19,420 –> 00:17:20,420
Yeah.

308
00:17:20,420 –> 00:17:23,740
That’s the kind of things where my parents would fight because I would have done something,

309
00:17:23,740 –> 00:17:25,220
whatever in case maybe.

310
00:17:25,220 –> 00:17:27,780
And at one point my mom’s like, no, that’s your daughter.

311
00:17:27,780 –> 00:17:30,260
And my dad would go, no, that’s your daughter.

312
00:17:30,260 –> 00:17:38,540
So all those instances aside, I think the biggest thing is that my mom married my father

313
00:17:38,540 –> 00:17:40,220
30 something years ago.

314
00:17:40,220 –> 00:17:45,240
And when she moved to the United States to be with my dad, she had no one else but my

315
00:17:45,240 –> 00:17:47,740
dad and my dad’s side of the family.

316
00:17:47,740 –> 00:17:53,160
And as much as my dad and dad’s side of family really tried to understand where she was coming

317
00:17:53,160 –> 00:17:56,820
from and even learn to eat some of the things that she liked to eat and learn some of the

318
00:17:56,820 –> 00:17:57,820
things.

319
00:17:57,820 –> 00:17:59,020
I mean, they never really learned Korean.

320
00:17:59,020 –> 00:18:07,520
My dad maybe knew all of three phrases and that was hello, thank you and basically where’s

321
00:18:07,520 –> 00:18:08,520
the bathroom?

322
00:18:08,520 –> 00:18:09,940
Oh, and he can order beer.

323
00:18:09,940 –> 00:18:14,500
So I was like soju, please, soju, please, beer, please.

324
00:18:14,500 –> 00:18:15,500
You know, like…

325
00:18:15,500 –> 00:18:16,500
The key phrases, of course.

326
00:18:16,500 –> 00:18:20,860
But essentially the key phrases how you can operate to like eat and drink and have a good

327
00:18:20,860 –> 00:18:23,580
time among Korean people basically.

328
00:18:23,580 –> 00:18:26,780
But other than that, you know, the rest of my dad’s side of family didn’t really learn

329
00:18:26,780 –> 00:18:30,460
Korean either, even though they were in direct contact with her.

330
00:18:30,460 –> 00:18:34,260
It was my mom who really took up that burden to learn English.

331
00:18:34,260 –> 00:18:39,700
And I think whether that was stressful for her or it could be also this kind of like

332
00:18:39,700 –> 00:18:44,900
identity crisis that one goes through when you feel like you don’t have someone to talk

333
00:18:44,900 –> 00:18:49,380
with in your own language and use your own words and like the way that you feel most

334
00:18:49,380 –> 00:18:51,020
comfortable expressing yourself.

335
00:18:51,020 –> 00:18:55,660
I think there could be this complex mix of some of those things that fed into why my

336
00:18:55,660 –> 00:18:58,960
mom was very adamant with me learning Korean.

337
00:18:58,960 –> 00:19:03,660
The other part of it is, of course, knowing her family does not speak English and she

338
00:19:03,660 –> 00:19:09,580
wanted to be able to go and spend time with her family as the balancing act for giving

339
00:19:09,580 –> 00:19:13,960
up her Korean citizenship and becoming an American citizen to be with my father.

340
00:19:13,960 –> 00:19:18,860
Just like, well, if I’m going to come to the US, like we need to be able to go see my family

341
00:19:18,860 –> 00:19:19,860
regularly.

342
00:19:19,860 –> 00:19:21,220
That was not a hard sell of my dad.

343
00:19:21,220 –> 00:19:22,720
My dad loved Korea.

344
00:19:22,720 –> 00:19:28,600
And so again, can totally understand why black people today, just people in general today

345
00:19:28,600 –> 00:19:31,400
love Korean everything and want to go visit.

346
00:19:31,400 –> 00:19:32,660
You know, I totally get it.

347
00:19:32,660 –> 00:19:38,580
But I think for her, it was the combination of just her own complex issues with sacrificing

348
00:19:38,580 –> 00:19:46,100
so much to be with my dad, but then also wanting to feel connected to her family in some way

349
00:19:46,100 –> 00:19:51,740
such that because I’m her family, like this is also something that I’m tasked with.

350
00:19:51,740 –> 00:19:56,140
Now, that didn’t necessarily translate to my younger sister.

351
00:19:56,140 –> 00:19:57,880
She’s 10 years younger than me.

352
00:19:57,880 –> 00:20:00,220
My little sister does understand some Korean.

353
00:20:00,220 –> 00:20:02,300
She doesn’t speak very much of it.

354
00:20:02,300 –> 00:20:08,560
And before you ask me, we actually don’t understand why that this happens, why people become

355
00:20:08,560 –> 00:20:11,740
receptive bilinguals, but not necessarily productive bilinguals in the sense of being

356
00:20:11,740 –> 00:20:15,060
able to produce as much as they can understand it.

357
00:20:15,060 –> 00:20:19,940
But I will say that I think I was held to a different set of standards when it came

358
00:20:19,940 –> 00:20:23,940
to understanding and speaking Korean compared to my sister.

359
00:20:23,940 –> 00:20:28,740
And that comes from, I think, a Korean cultural standpoint of what it means to be the first

360
00:20:28,740 –> 00:20:29,740
daughter.

361
00:20:29,740 –> 00:20:34,180
When you are the oldest daughter, there is a cultural thing that happens with being the

362
00:20:34,180 –> 00:20:35,180
first daughter.

363
00:20:35,180 –> 00:20:40,460
A lot of responsibility that comes with the family gets placed on the oldest daughter.

364
00:20:40,460 –> 00:20:45,380
And that’s something that my mom did because that’s what happened with her and with my,

365
00:20:45,380 –> 00:20:48,140
you know, it just gets passed down generation by generation.

366
00:20:48,140 –> 00:20:51,020
So yeah, I think that that was a big part of it.

367
00:20:51,020 –> 00:20:56,500
Also I think I think I was very much open to it because it’s different.

368
00:20:56,500 –> 00:20:58,860
I grew up in, for the most part, in North Carolina.

369
00:20:58,860 –> 00:21:03,660
We did move around a little bit and I spent a lot of my time around my black side of my

370
00:21:03,660 –> 00:21:06,100
family to my dad’s side of the family.

371
00:21:06,100 –> 00:21:10,860
And so when you grow up in that kind of environment, you’re always around your black side of the

372
00:21:10,860 –> 00:21:11,860
family.

373
00:21:11,860 –> 00:21:15,740
You know, my mom wanted to also, you know, be like, basically buck back.

374
00:21:15,740 –> 00:21:20,180
My mom wanted to buck back and be like, oh, you think you that you think this the Korean

375
00:21:20,180 –> 00:21:21,620
people, we do this and creepy.

376
00:21:21,620 –> 00:21:27,100
We did like Korean pride is such a such a underestimated thing.

377
00:21:27,100 –> 00:21:29,700
Like Korean people are so incredibly prideful.

378
00:21:29,700 –> 00:21:34,300
I think Asian people in general are very prideful and we show it in different ways, especially

379
00:21:34,300 –> 00:21:36,500
how we compete against each other.

380
00:21:36,500 –> 00:21:39,820
But my mom, I think also had a bit of that pride too.

381
00:21:39,820 –> 00:21:42,260
And I was like, oh, you think you’re this and you’re that.

382
00:21:42,260 –> 00:21:43,900
Well, this is what Korean people can do.

383
00:21:43,900 –> 00:21:45,620
And this is what Korean people have to offer.

384
00:21:45,620 –> 00:21:46,620
And my daughter’s Korean.

385
00:21:46,620 –> 00:21:47,620
She could do this.

386
00:21:47,620 –> 00:21:52,220
So just as much as like my parents would fight when I would do something that they didn’t

387
00:21:52,220 –> 00:21:57,460
like about whose daughter I was, when I would do something that they were proud of, oh,

388
00:21:57,460 –> 00:21:58,460
that’s my daughter.

389
00:21:58,460 –> 00:21:59,460
No, that’s my daughter.

390
00:21:59,460 –> 00:22:02,860
I think that was the other kind of fight, which is hilarious.

391
00:22:02,860 –> 00:22:07,740
But yeah, my mom was very, I think was coming from a very mixed place.

392
00:22:07,740 –> 00:22:14,340
And I’m grateful for that because it has definitely fueled my work and especially given me the

393
00:22:14,340 –> 00:22:16,660
perspective I have with the type of research that I do.

394
00:22:16,660 –> 00:22:21,740
Yeah, I was curious what drew you to the field of linguistics and the neuro linguistics specifically.

395
00:22:21,740 –> 00:22:26,060
So I was always really good at science and math.

396
00:22:26,060 –> 00:22:28,220
English was not my strong suit.

397
00:22:28,220 –> 00:22:34,340
And I think now reflecting back on my experiences, it could be because the type of English you

398
00:22:34,340 –> 00:22:39,580
do in school was not the English that I’m familiar with as an African American person.

399
00:22:39,580 –> 00:22:45,760
So it’s just one of those things where you become very uncomfortable in that space and

400
00:22:45,760 –> 00:22:51,940
trying to do well on their tests and their standards of how to do English.

401
00:22:51,940 –> 00:22:54,540
We’re going to put that to the side.

402
00:22:54,540 –> 00:22:57,780
But I found that I was really good at math and really good at science because math was

403
00:22:57,780 –> 00:22:58,780
a language I could understand.

404
00:22:58,780 –> 00:23:04,020
I could do really well, not to like fit the Asian stereotype, but that was just something

405
00:23:04,020 –> 00:23:06,820
that I enjoyed because I liked the puzzle.

406
00:23:06,820 –> 00:23:11,180
But then when I got to college, I realized that I did not like being in a lab.

407
00:23:11,180 –> 00:23:15,460
And so at the time I was a chemistry pre-pharmacy major, I thought I was going to become a pharmacist.

408
00:23:15,460 –> 00:23:17,220
I didn’t want to be pipetting all day.

409
00:23:17,220 –> 00:23:21,500
Like there was nothing exciting about working with chemicals all day.

410
00:23:21,500 –> 00:23:24,220
I was just like, oh, I got to do something else.

411
00:23:24,220 –> 00:23:28,900
Now I had taken Model UN when I was in high school, so I was like, well, I’ll just do

412
00:23:28,900 –> 00:23:32,140
international affairs, take a couple of foreign language classes.

413
00:23:32,140 –> 00:23:36,300
So I was studying a little bit of Japanese, a little bit of Mandarin, but for my own Korean

414
00:23:36,300 –> 00:23:38,940
selfish reasons.

415
00:23:38,940 –> 00:23:44,940
I was doing all of this and my undergraduate advisor, when I told her I wanted to switch

416
00:23:44,940 –> 00:23:50,220
from chemistry to international affairs, which meant switching also colleges within the university,

417
00:23:50,220 –> 00:23:55,100
she was like, well, I don’t think it’s a good idea for you to give up on science altogether.

418
00:23:55,100 –> 00:23:56,100
Why don’t you think about linguistics?

419
00:23:56,100 –> 00:23:58,580
And I never heard about linguistics.

420
00:23:58,580 –> 00:24:01,940
That was just a foreign word to me.

421
00:24:01,940 –> 00:24:04,620
And she was like, yeah, you like science, you like language.

422
00:24:04,620 –> 00:24:07,220
I see you’re doing well in these foreign language classes.

423
00:24:07,220 –> 00:24:11,220
Take an intro to linguistics course, see how you feel about it and go from there.

424
00:24:11,220 –> 00:24:12,220
So I was like, okay.

425
00:24:12,220 –> 00:24:16,040
So I took a linguistics course and instantly fell in love.

426
00:24:16,040 –> 00:24:22,100
It was everything that I liked about science, but I got to do that with and about people

427
00:24:22,100 –> 00:24:27,580
and understanding how people use language and understand the systematicity of language.

428
00:24:27,580 –> 00:24:32,180
I think sometimes people think when it’s linguistics, all we do is translate or interpret.

429
00:24:32,180 –> 00:24:35,660
And that’s actually not what most linguists do.

430
00:24:35,660 –> 00:24:39,980
We usually focus on a very specific level of language and understanding how that system

431
00:24:39,980 –> 00:24:40,980
works.

432
00:24:40,980 –> 00:24:44,820
What are the things that make languages different, but also what are the things that make languages

433
00:24:44,820 –> 00:24:48,000
maybe potentially universal in some aspect?

434
00:24:48,000 –> 00:24:52,020
It’s a way of thinking about how we are all underlying with human.

435
00:24:52,020 –> 00:24:54,140
And that became such a cool thing for me.

436
00:24:54,140 –> 00:24:59,060
But it wasn’t until I had finished my undergrad and I was working for a publisher that I realized

437
00:24:59,060 –> 00:25:05,060
that there were people who research language in the brain, but didn’t have linguistics

438
00:25:05,060 –> 00:25:06,060
training.

439
00:25:06,060 –> 00:25:09,100
They’re coming from a psychology training or a neuroscience training.

440
00:25:09,100 –> 00:25:15,740
I’ll have to say, it took me a long time to get to where I’m at now, but it all started

441
00:25:15,740 –> 00:25:16,740
when I was an undergrad.

442
00:25:16,740 –> 00:25:20,340
And it’s my undergrad advisor being like, hey, you like language, you like science,

443
00:25:20,340 –> 00:25:21,940
you should think about linguistics.

444
00:25:21,940 –> 00:25:23,780
And that’s how I got to where I’m at now.

445
00:25:23,780 –> 00:25:24,780
That’s super cool.

446
00:25:24,780 –> 00:25:29,140
I’ve always been fascinated by languages, like the origin of languages, how they come

447
00:25:29,140 –> 00:25:31,900
to be, the human process of it all.

448
00:25:31,900 –> 00:25:36,420
To the point I took Latin in high school where most people do not do that.

449
00:25:36,420 –> 00:25:41,060
I take Spanish or something, quote unquote useful, but I just love breaking downwards

450
00:25:41,060 –> 00:25:42,540
and breaking them apart.

451
00:25:42,540 –> 00:25:47,680
And so I always assumed most linguists are coming at it from that space, but I never

452
00:25:47,680 –> 00:25:51,220
even thought of coming at it from the scientific side.

453
00:25:51,220 –> 00:25:52,660
So I find that really fascinating.

454
00:25:52,660 –> 00:25:56,940
What has been your experience working in maybe linguistics more broadly, but specifically

455
00:25:56,940 –> 00:26:00,100
neuro linguistics as a biracial and bilingual person?

456
00:26:00,100 –> 00:26:03,700
Because I imagine that experience is different than a lot of your colleagues.

457
00:26:03,700 –> 00:26:04,700
Yeah.

458
00:26:04,700 –> 00:26:06,140
So it’s funny.

459
00:26:06,140 –> 00:26:13,300
I think being a black biracial bilingual person in general, when you’re talking about academia

460
00:26:13,300 –> 00:26:21,020
is a wild space to be in because for one, I really grew up by the cultural as well as

461
00:26:21,020 –> 00:26:22,460
bilingual.

462
00:26:22,460 –> 00:26:25,860
And so I see how competing systems interact all the time.

463
00:26:25,860 –> 00:26:28,420
I grew up with that my entire life.

464
00:26:28,420 –> 00:26:32,780
So it’s a very different thing to have that as a lived experience and think about what

465
00:26:32,780 –> 00:26:39,140
that means when you’re doing research on bilingual processing, because then the idea about thinking

466
00:26:39,140 –> 00:26:46,940
about how one brain can handle two competing language systems in a single brain, if you

467
00:26:46,940 –> 00:26:50,220
didn’t grow up with that experience, you’re going to have a very different perspective

468
00:26:50,220 –> 00:26:52,700
on how you think that might work.

469
00:26:52,700 –> 00:26:57,500
And what’s nice is that I’ve been able to find other people who don’t have the same

470
00:26:57,500 –> 00:27:04,040
experiences me, but have enough of a similar experience where we can read each other, see

471
00:27:04,040 –> 00:27:08,300
how each other is thinking about a particular type of research.

472
00:27:08,300 –> 00:27:12,780
Now in terms of my work specifically, so I think I mentioned before what I’m interested

473
00:27:12,780 –> 00:27:14,100
in is language in the brain.

474
00:27:14,100 –> 00:27:19,580
I’m specifically interested in the parts of the brain that support our ability to combine

475
00:27:19,580 –> 00:27:21,460
words in meaningful ways.

476
00:27:21,460 –> 00:27:26,540
So what are all the things that have to happen for you to take something like red and boat

477
00:27:26,540 –> 00:27:27,900
and put them together?

478
00:27:27,900 –> 00:27:33,020
That was in essence, a lot of what my PhD advisor was working on and is still working

479
00:27:33,020 –> 00:27:38,020
on just the combinatorics is what we like to call it, that allow us to do this kind

480
00:27:38,020 –> 00:27:39,020
of combination.

481
00:27:39,020 –> 00:27:43,100
Because it’s not just a matter of hearing a word and then waiting for the next word,

482
00:27:43,100 –> 00:27:47,900
but you have to know how those two words combine versus two words that even if they come sequentially

483
00:27:47,900 –> 00:27:51,300
that don’t combine and understanding how they combine.

484
00:27:51,300 –> 00:27:55,660
Because for example, red and boat gives you the interpretation that the boat is painted

485
00:27:55,660 –> 00:27:56,740
red.

486
00:27:56,740 –> 00:28:00,780
But if I told you a meat boat, you’re not going to think a boat that’s made out of meat.

487
00:28:00,780 –> 00:28:04,500
You’re going to think it’s a boat that carries me.

488
00:28:04,500 –> 00:28:08,180
So it’s a different function, but they appear in the same order.

489
00:28:08,180 –> 00:28:09,840
They come sequentially one after another.

490
00:28:09,840 –> 00:28:11,820
The only thing that’s different is red versus meat.

491
00:28:11,820 –> 00:28:13,980
So how do we get to this different interpretation?

492
00:28:13,980 –> 00:28:16,020
But then what happens when you’re a bilingual?

493
00:28:16,020 –> 00:28:19,740
Because we do this thing sometimes when we meet another bilingual and we’re like, oh,

494
00:28:19,740 –> 00:28:23,700
I can just use all the words that I know and I can just combine them in all the ways that

495
00:28:23,700 –> 00:28:26,260
make sense and we just get it.

496
00:28:26,260 –> 00:28:32,380
And it’s very different from growing up as a literate, educated person in a single language

497
00:28:32,380 –> 00:28:37,340
because you’ve been trained to use that language in a particular way.

498
00:28:37,340 –> 00:28:41,560
You never get trained to code switch or be bilingual, right?

499
00:28:41,560 –> 00:28:45,500
It’s something that naturally happens as a part of trying to communicate.

500
00:28:45,500 –> 00:28:49,820
And so I think that in its essence is the rawest way that we can really look at how

501
00:28:49,820 –> 00:28:54,180
language works in the brain and understand how the brain is able to do these kinds of

502
00:28:54,180 –> 00:28:55,180
operations.

503
00:28:55,180 –> 00:29:01,860
I think then from there, the departure into what I’m doing now versus what I was doing

504
00:29:01,860 –> 00:29:07,060
during my PhD is I’m thinking, okay, well, how did I get here?

505
00:29:07,060 –> 00:29:12,220
Because I didn’t have the same linguistic experiences as people who grew up only learning

506
00:29:12,220 –> 00:29:18,100
Korean or only learning African American English or only learning WASP, standardized American

507
00:29:18,100 –> 00:29:19,100
English.

508
00:29:19,100 –> 00:29:25,300
And despite having a very different kind of input such that I can maintain one language

509
00:29:25,300 –> 00:29:31,300
at a time if I need to or use all of my languages together when I need to.

510
00:29:31,300 –> 00:29:34,940
And that’s something that’s beautiful about the bilingual experience that we don’t always

511
00:29:34,940 –> 00:29:36,860
get to think about or talk about.

512
00:29:36,860 –> 00:29:42,500
It’s always this kind of, oh, how do I fit in this monolingual box versus this monolingual

513
00:29:42,500 –> 00:29:47,700
box or feeling incompetent because, well, I don’t speak this one particular language

514
00:29:47,700 –> 00:29:50,380
as well as this other in this way.

515
00:29:50,380 –> 00:29:55,820
And that’s been an interesting perspective that I can carry into how I analyze data and

516
00:29:55,820 –> 00:29:58,420
how I set up my research questions.

517
00:29:58,420 –> 00:30:04,980
And even just thinking through how do I actually test the question and hypotheses that I create

518
00:30:04,980 –> 00:30:09,940
based off of what people have done before with a very monolingual perspective?

519
00:30:09,940 –> 00:30:16,740
How do I now make this theory or develop a theory about how brain and language work that

520
00:30:16,740 –> 00:30:23,260
is more inclusive of all different types of linguistic experiences, especially my own?

521
00:30:23,260 –> 00:30:28,620
Because I didn’t see people who look like me, think like me, talk like me doing this

522
00:30:28,620 –> 00:30:29,620
research.

523
00:30:29,620 –> 00:30:33,780
I saw people who were coming from Europe where it’s no big deal.

524
00:30:33,780 –> 00:30:37,260
They don’t have the same kind of competition or conflict.

525
00:30:37,260 –> 00:30:42,660
At least I don’t think they suffer from that same kind of conflict between their languages

526
00:30:42,660 –> 00:30:45,860
as I have with mine, for example.

527
00:30:45,860 –> 00:30:48,860
And we’re starting to see that also in the bilingualism literature.

528
00:30:48,860 –> 00:30:54,380
We don’t see that all bilinguals show some of these bilingual advantage effects that

529
00:30:54,380 –> 00:30:58,980
have been reported if you’ve read these kinds of articles in the New York Times or in other

530
00:30:58,980 –> 00:31:00,220
reputable news sources.

531
00:31:00,220 –> 00:31:05,180
I think being literally, I don’t know of any other Blasian neuro linguists out there.

532
00:31:05,180 –> 00:31:09,580
If you find them, please send them my way because I feel very lonely here sometimes.

533
00:31:09,580 –> 00:31:14,340
But in the interactions that I have with black neuroscientists, with Asian neuroscientists,

534
00:31:14,340 –> 00:31:19,700
and then with the non-black, non-Asian neuroscientists, we all have very different experiences.

535
00:31:19,700 –> 00:31:22,820
And I think I offer a very different perspective in how it all works.

536
00:31:22,820 –> 00:31:27,500
And because of that, I can, I think, push the field in a more inclusive direction when

537
00:31:27,500 –> 00:31:31,820
we think about models and theories and the clinical implications thereof.

538
00:31:31,820 –> 00:31:32,820
That’s really awesome.

539
00:31:32,820 –> 00:31:37,660
I wish there were more as well because it’s so hard because obviously, or maybe not obviously,

540
00:31:37,660 –> 00:31:42,940
a lot of my curiosity stems around my own experiences as a biracial person, as a black

541
00:31:42,940 –> 00:31:43,940
person.

542
00:31:43,940 –> 00:31:48,180
But when you’re interested in language, those things like you were speaking to come into

543
00:31:48,180 –> 00:31:49,180
conflict.

544
00:31:49,180 –> 00:31:52,900
There’s not as much, if any, sometimes research done in these spaces.

545
00:31:52,900 –> 00:31:58,300
So I would love to have a more wider diversity in academia in general, of course, but especially

546
00:31:58,300 –> 00:32:00,780
in linguistics and neuro linguistics.

547
00:32:00,780 –> 00:32:02,360
I think that’d be really cool.

548
00:32:02,360 –> 00:32:05,660
You were talking about the conflict that bilinguals face here.

549
00:32:05,660 –> 00:32:10,380
And I think it’s really interesting that that does reflect different language outcomes like

550
00:32:10,380 –> 00:32:11,900
you were speaking to.

551
00:32:11,900 –> 00:32:15,580
And I do wonder, we have these articles that are talking about, oh, the benefits of being

552
00:32:15,580 –> 00:32:17,780
growing up bilingual, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

553
00:32:17,780 –> 00:32:24,140
I wonder though, should we work as a society in America to remove those conflicts?

554
00:32:24,140 –> 00:32:28,060
Or are those differences really negative differences or are they just differences?

555
00:32:28,060 –> 00:32:30,140
I’m going to say that they’re just differences.

556
00:32:30,140 –> 00:32:33,220
There are always going to be points of conflict.

557
00:32:33,220 –> 00:32:39,940
But the way that we as people can find self betterment, can strive to be better people

558
00:32:39,940 –> 00:32:40,940
is through conflict.

559
00:32:40,940 –> 00:32:46,780
Like you can’t be a better person if at some point something didn’t create tension or force

560
00:32:46,780 –> 00:32:50,580
you to go through some situation that made you feel uncomfortable.

561
00:32:50,580 –> 00:32:57,460
That’s just how we can become better people and become a more humane society is understanding

562
00:32:57,460 –> 00:32:59,580
that we’re not all built the same.

563
00:32:59,580 –> 00:33:03,900
And because we’re not all built the same, there is going to be natural conflict.

564
00:33:03,900 –> 00:33:09,220
Where I think the conflicts can be taxing or demanding is actually when it comes to

565
00:33:09,220 –> 00:33:11,660
making social decisions.

566
00:33:11,660 –> 00:33:17,060
It’s the idea of when to use what particular language and how do you put your best face

567
00:33:17,060 –> 00:33:21,940
forward using your language, depending on who you’re talking to, who’s around and what

568
00:33:21,940 –> 00:33:23,300
context you’re in.

569
00:33:23,300 –> 00:33:28,100
All of that decision making can be relatively exhausting.

570
00:33:28,100 –> 00:33:32,500
And that can fluctuate also depending on your own personality.

571
00:33:32,500 –> 00:33:38,060
Are you someone who thrives in these kinds of very extroverted type environments where

572
00:33:38,060 –> 00:33:40,220
you’re around a lot of people and you get to socialize?

573
00:33:40,220 –> 00:33:41,940
Me, I’m naturally very introverted.

574
00:33:41,940 –> 00:33:44,920
So for me, it’s just like all of it is very exhausting.

575
00:33:44,920 –> 00:33:49,900
So once it goes past more than talking to one person at a time, I’m just slightly overwhelmed.

576
00:33:49,900 –> 00:33:55,060
And then it exponentially increases the more people are there, especially when it’s more

577
00:33:55,060 –> 00:33:56,540
people that I don’t know.

578
00:33:56,540 –> 00:34:00,780
And I have to try and navigate when to use what and how to say what.

579
00:34:00,780 –> 00:34:05,140
If I could be someone as urban times where I had a little bit to drink and I just went

580
00:34:05,140 –> 00:34:09,100
with Corrine because I was feeling and thinking in Corrine at that moment, I just gave up

581
00:34:09,100 –> 00:34:13,060
on trying to manage when to use what language.

582
00:34:13,060 –> 00:34:16,780
And I think a lot of times black people, we talk about code switching being exhausting

583
00:34:16,780 –> 00:34:23,500
because we feel like we have to put on a facade or make white people in particular feel comfortable

584
00:34:23,500 –> 00:34:24,740
around us.

585
00:34:24,740 –> 00:34:27,780
And the exhaustion is not the code switching act itself.

586
00:34:27,780 –> 00:34:32,180
It’s not the suppressing of the language that you don’t want to use.

587
00:34:32,180 –> 00:34:35,820
The exhaustion is having to feel like you have to manage your communication for the

588
00:34:35,820 –> 00:34:41,540
sake of this other person because that other person is a social cost or social burden on

589
00:34:41,540 –> 00:34:47,100
your own desires, wishes, whatever intentions, however that interaction is supposed to go.

590
00:34:47,100 –> 00:34:52,220
So I don’t have evidence to speak to that specifically, but the evidence that I do see

591
00:34:52,220 –> 00:34:58,060
when it comes to costs of switching languages doesn’t come from the linguistic system.

592
00:34:58,060 –> 00:35:04,020
It absolutely comes from things like attention and working memory, things that we use cognitively

593
00:35:04,020 –> 00:35:05,980
speaking in all other facets.

594
00:35:05,980 –> 00:35:11,540
It’s not language specific and they do show up in when we do make these kinds of social

595
00:35:11,540 –> 00:35:13,020
cognitive decisions.

596
00:35:13,020 –> 00:35:19,380
So I’m more willing to believe that the burden is on the social aspects of languaging versus

597
00:35:19,380 –> 00:35:22,980
the actual linguistic aspects of languaging.

598
00:35:22,980 –> 00:35:24,140
It’s actually really interesting.

599
00:35:24,140 –> 00:35:28,700
I’ve never thought of it this way, but you’re talking about how it’s the social burden that

600
00:35:28,700 –> 00:35:31,180
makes it very difficult to code switch.

601
00:35:31,180 –> 00:35:35,160
And again, I’m not going to claim that this is equal or necessarily the exact same as

602
00:35:35,160 –> 00:35:39,820
being fully bilingual, but I think about me and my friends who are black talking about

603
00:35:39,820 –> 00:35:42,300
code switching and how code switching is very demanding.

604
00:35:42,300 –> 00:35:48,100
However, if I think about it, when we’re talking amongst ourselves, we are definitely constantly

605
00:35:48,100 –> 00:35:52,780
using both whatever you want to call it, general American English and African American English.

606
00:35:52,780 –> 00:35:56,620
But nobody’s feeling burdened by switching back and forth because there’s no social requirement

607
00:35:56,620 –> 00:35:57,620
to do so.

608
00:35:57,620 –> 00:35:58,620
There’s no pressure there.

609
00:35:58,620 –> 00:36:01,860
We’re just doing it because we’re fluent, quote unquote, if you will, in both.

610
00:36:01,860 –> 00:36:03,980
And so both just come out equally.

611
00:36:03,980 –> 00:36:08,240
I imagine that’s similar to the experience you were talking about earlier being bilingual

612
00:36:08,240 –> 00:36:11,900
and meeting another bilingual person and just saying, oh great, I can just let whatever

613
00:36:11,900 –> 00:36:12,900
fly.

614
00:36:12,900 –> 00:36:13,900
Exactly.

615
00:36:13,900 –> 00:36:18,820
And honestly, what evidence we do have of cost of switching and how that might be social

616
00:36:18,820 –> 00:36:23,720
only comes from the fact that these effects occur when you are forced to switch because

617
00:36:23,720 –> 00:36:30,000
of a particular cue or you’re forced to suppress one language in a particular scenario.

618
00:36:30,000 –> 00:36:31,920
That’s where we see robust effects.

619
00:36:31,920 –> 00:36:37,640
And again, these effects appear very much in regions that are associated with more general

620
00:36:37,640 –> 00:36:43,800
cognitive tasks like attention and working memory, conflict resolution type tasks, then

621
00:36:43,800 –> 00:36:50,600
the linguistic type tasks, the parts of the brain that are more typically associated with

622
00:36:50,600 –> 00:36:56,940
specific language functions like combining words, processing speech, those kinds of things.

623
00:36:56,940 –> 00:37:01,700
Do you have any advice for black language learners specifically?

624
00:37:01,700 –> 00:37:06,040
It could be from the linguistic point of view or just your experience as a bilingual person

625
00:37:06,040 –> 00:37:07,700
watching people try to learn your language.

626
00:37:07,700 –> 00:37:11,500
I think the advice I can give is don’t be discouraged and find your tribe.

627
00:37:11,500 –> 00:37:13,380
So for the first part, don’t be discouraged.

628
00:37:13,380 –> 00:37:15,960
I think this is true of any language learner.

629
00:37:15,960 –> 00:37:18,940
There are going to be times where you feel like you’ve hit a rut.

630
00:37:18,940 –> 00:37:22,860
There are going to be times where you feel like the words just won’t come out.

631
00:37:22,860 –> 00:37:25,020
And that’s so relatable right now.

632
00:37:25,020 –> 00:37:28,440
You know, that’s I mean, if you think about it, when you are learning a language, you’re

633
00:37:28,440 –> 00:37:35,340
learning a new way of forming your mouth to make sounds you’ve never had to make before.

634
00:37:35,340 –> 00:37:40,440
And if you don’t intuitively still have this sense of being able to pick up what those

635
00:37:40,440 –> 00:37:45,020
sounds are and you’re trying to match something that you don’t hear as well because you weren’t

636
00:37:45,020 –> 00:37:48,000
attuned to hearing for this distinction.

637
00:37:48,000 –> 00:37:50,260
And this is something that does happen with language learning.

638
00:37:50,260 –> 00:37:56,420
We over time, once we learn our language, it becomes harder to then listen for things

639
00:37:56,420 –> 00:37:59,500
that we weren’t attuned to listen for as an adult.

640
00:37:59,500 –> 00:38:02,940
That’s what makes language learning in a second language a bit harder.

641
00:38:02,940 –> 00:38:05,740
It’s not impossible, but it does make it a little harder.

642
00:38:05,740 –> 00:38:11,580
And so you’re breaking old habits, old brain habits to form new ones to be more accepting

643
00:38:11,580 –> 00:38:15,700
of not only the language that you already know, but of this new language that you’re

644
00:38:15,700 –> 00:38:17,140
trying to learn.

645
00:38:17,140 –> 00:38:22,100
And so with that, it can sometimes be very discouraging, but don’t be discouraged.

646
00:38:22,100 –> 00:38:26,940
It’s just something that over time, the more you do it, the more comfortable you get.

647
00:38:26,940 –> 00:38:30,220
And the ultimate goal is just to be able to be conversant, right?

648
00:38:30,220 –> 00:38:35,260
You just want to be able to interact with this language and be able to better understand

649
00:38:35,260 –> 00:38:36,340
it than you did before.

650
00:38:36,340 –> 00:38:40,820
So with that, the second part, find your tribe, is really important because you want to be

651
00:38:40,820 –> 00:38:45,620
in an environment and find a community of people where you feel safe to make mistakes,

652
00:38:45,620 –> 00:38:49,700
where you feel like you’re going to get the kind of support you need to not only learn

653
00:38:49,700 –> 00:38:55,260
the language, but also learn the culture, learn the history, learn things about not

654
00:38:55,260 –> 00:38:58,240
only the language, but the people who speak that language.

655
00:38:58,240 –> 00:39:01,780
Because when you learn a language, you shouldn’t learn a language like you learn math to do

656
00:39:01,780 –> 00:39:03,580
some self-sufficient skill.

657
00:39:03,580 –> 00:39:08,620
You’re learning language to be social and to be a part of the human experience and look

658
00:39:08,620 –> 00:39:12,980
at it from a different lens or experience it through a different perspective.

659
00:39:12,980 –> 00:39:17,380
And so with that comes actually finding people you want to hang out with.

660
00:39:17,380 –> 00:39:20,340
Why learn a language when you don’t want to hang out with the people who also speak that

661
00:39:20,340 –> 00:39:21,340
language?

662
00:39:21,340 –> 00:39:27,100
No person who’s learning Korean right now doesn’t want to secretly meet whatever bias

663
00:39:27,100 –> 00:39:31,060
they have and be able to tell them in their language, oh my God, I love you.

664
00:39:31,060 –> 00:39:32,060
Will you marry me tomorrow?

665
00:39:32,060 –> 00:39:33,060
Like, who does it?

666
00:39:33,060 –> 00:39:34,060
It’s a call out.

667
00:39:34,060 –> 00:39:36,220
It’s not true though.

668
00:39:36,220 –> 00:39:39,540
So go into that with that in mind and find your tribe.

669
00:39:39,540 –> 00:39:42,900
Find some friends who have biases of the same group, but not the same one because you don’t

670
00:39:42,900 –> 00:39:45,500
want to compete for the same person.

671
00:39:45,500 –> 00:39:51,360
And have an opportunity where you can interact with each other, use language together.

672
00:39:51,360 –> 00:39:57,020
And in a way it continues to build what language is intended to do, which is to allow us to

673
00:39:57,020 –> 00:39:58,300
be social.

674
00:39:58,300 –> 00:40:01,220
So yeah, don’t be discouraged and find your tribe.

675
00:40:01,220 –> 00:40:07,460
I will second that from my just personal anecdotal experience, which is not the same as a well-studied

676
00:40:07,460 –> 00:40:08,980
doctor of neuro linguistics.

677
00:40:08,980 –> 00:40:14,740
However, that was the mistake I made learning Korean was that because my interests are naturally,

678
00:40:14,740 –> 00:40:19,540
oh, I’m so fascinated by language, I dove into the grammar, but learned it very similar

679
00:40:19,540 –> 00:40:20,540
to your learning math.

680
00:40:20,540 –> 00:40:23,620
You’re like going into the books and you’re researching and you’re trying to understand

681
00:40:23,620 –> 00:40:25,380
how this language works, which is fun.

682
00:40:25,380 –> 00:40:26,860
If that’s what you want to do, it is fun.

683
00:40:26,860 –> 00:40:28,700
I found it very fun anyway.

684
00:40:28,700 –> 00:40:33,020
But it means I’m a whole lot less conversational considering how long I’ve studied and how

685
00:40:33,020 –> 00:40:34,260
much grammar I know.

686
00:40:34,260 –> 00:40:36,260
So I would second that you’re in it to be social.

687
00:40:36,260 –> 00:40:40,260
So if you can, the quicker you can move into the social aspect, I would say the better.

688
00:40:40,260 –> 00:40:42,060
And that’s, I think, common advice.

689
00:40:42,060 –> 00:40:43,060
I just ignored it.

690
00:40:43,060 –> 00:40:44,060
So that’s on me.

691
00:40:44,060 –> 00:40:48,140
But well, we all want to ignore it because that’s actually the hard part.

692
00:40:48,140 –> 00:40:54,020
The hard part is being like, okay, I’m going to sound stupid, which honestly no one wants

693
00:40:54,020 –> 00:40:55,020
to sound stupid.

694
00:40:55,020 –> 00:40:59,740
I think I put out a TikTok video, which was very much me ranting about how I think it’s

695
00:40:59,740 –> 00:41:04,820
really stupid that we have this tightly woven connection between your language abilities

696
00:41:04,820 –> 00:41:06,980
and how smart someone is.

697
00:41:06,980 –> 00:41:11,880
There is a loose connection, but they’re not so interdependent that you can make a judgment

698
00:41:11,880 –> 00:41:14,500
off of one from the other and vice versa.

699
00:41:14,500 –> 00:41:21,420
And so the sooner one can let go of that ego and just be willing to listen and be open

700
00:41:21,420 –> 00:41:28,340
and be willing to just make mistakes, stutter, do all those things over time, those things

701
00:41:28,340 –> 00:41:30,340
will happen less and less frequently.

702
00:41:30,340 –> 00:41:33,860
And that’s because the more you do it, the more you engage in it.

703
00:41:33,860 –> 00:41:38,620
We see like this is why people always talk about immersion because what you need is greater

704
00:41:38,620 –> 00:41:44,380
opportunities for both input and output for your language skill to continue to update

705
00:41:44,380 –> 00:41:45,500
and improve.

706
00:41:45,500 –> 00:41:48,660
That’s how the learning mechanism is modeled to work.

707
00:41:48,660 –> 00:41:52,660
Now research is still trying to figure out how those mechanisms work exactly, which is

708
00:41:52,660 –> 00:41:58,500
why you haven’t heard a good answer from some of us about how do we best and most efficiently

709
00:41:58,500 –> 00:41:59,780
learn a language.

710
00:41:59,780 –> 00:42:04,420
But what we do know is the amount and the quality of one’s input as well as output

711
00:42:04,420 –> 00:42:10,580
matters in creating that opportunity, especially for the fact that when you practice producing,

712
00:42:10,580 –> 00:42:12,740
you’re also hearing it back to yourself.

713
00:42:12,740 –> 00:42:18,580
It’s a way of getting additional input because you’ve now said it out loud and it forms a

714
00:42:18,580 –> 00:42:24,100
feedback loop because as you then hear yourself saying it, as you’re seeing how people, when

715
00:42:24,100 –> 00:42:28,620
you get the eyes of like, oh, I understand, or oh, I don’t understand, you’re now able

716
00:42:28,620 –> 00:42:34,180
to then make corrections and fix as you continue to practice and do that sort of thing.

717
00:42:34,180 –> 00:42:39,080
So all the more reason to keep practicing and if you’re in an environment where people

718
00:42:39,080 –> 00:42:42,060
understand where you’re coming from and they’re not going to think that you’re stupid because

719
00:42:42,060 –> 00:42:45,180
you’re learning, that creates a safe space for you.

720
00:42:45,180 –> 00:42:49,740
I guess my last question then is what hopes do you have for the future of the study of

721
00:42:49,740 –> 00:42:54,220
linguistics and or the language learning space for black folks specifically?

722
00:42:54,220 –> 00:42:56,940
Honestly, I want more black people in linguistics.

723
00:42:56,940 –> 00:43:01,580
I think the hard truth about linguistics is like, we don’t have a good PR team to say,

724
00:43:01,580 –> 00:43:03,380
like, you should study linguistics.

725
00:43:03,380 –> 00:43:05,940
Here’s what linguistics can offer you.

726
00:43:05,940 –> 00:43:11,660
It’s not the same thing as psychology or business because people don’t see a career path, quote

727
00:43:11,660 –> 00:43:15,180
unquote, through linguistics in the same way.

728
00:43:15,180 –> 00:43:20,220
But I think that’s also the beauty of linguistics is that you have the opportunity to create

729
00:43:20,220 –> 00:43:25,220
the kind of career you want because at the end of the day, any career you choose, any

730
00:43:25,220 –> 00:43:28,060
path you walk, language is going to be involved in it.

731
00:43:28,060 –> 00:43:34,700
You can’t exist in this world as a human and be functioning in society without language.

732
00:43:34,700 –> 00:43:36,620
It just doesn’t work that way.

733
00:43:36,620 –> 00:43:41,160
And this is why we tell people if your child is born deaf or your child is born blind,

734
00:43:41,160 –> 00:43:43,820
it doesn’t mean you don’t introduce language.

735
00:43:43,820 –> 00:43:48,180
You just find a modality that works for them and then you use language with them because

736
00:43:48,180 –> 00:43:53,300
that’s how they will still be able to have that kind of human experience that we all

737
00:43:53,300 –> 00:43:56,460
actually, I think, internally want and need.

738
00:43:56,460 –> 00:44:02,820
So as black people, I think sometimes we see gatekeeping and we think, oh, it’s going to

739
00:44:02,820 –> 00:44:03,820
be so hard.

740
00:44:03,820 –> 00:44:05,260
It’s going to be this uphill battle.

741
00:44:05,260 –> 00:44:08,460
I don’t want to be a part of something where it’s going to be an uphill battle.

742
00:44:08,460 –> 00:44:12,780
And I don’t know what my career outcome could be with it.

743
00:44:12,780 –> 00:44:18,500
And that’s the unfortunate part because I think sometimes we need also as black people,

744
00:44:18,500 –> 00:44:25,020
a little bit of grace to just figure things out and not have to feel like we need to strive

745
00:44:25,020 –> 00:44:30,460
towards some version of ourselves that is considered acceptable either in the white

746
00:44:30,460 –> 00:44:36,100
gaze or in the black gaze, because those gazes are both of them come with pressure in my

747
00:44:36,100 –> 00:44:37,100
mind.

748
00:44:37,100 –> 00:44:40,860
So yeah, I think for me, I would love to see more black linguists.

749
00:44:40,860 –> 00:44:45,900
And in particular, I want to see more black linguists go into the various different subfields.

750
00:44:45,900 –> 00:44:50,980
So a lot of black linguists typically stay within sociolinguistics, which is great, which

751
00:44:50,980 –> 00:44:57,260
is studying how languages are used among communities and where we see a lot of variation and change

752
00:44:57,260 –> 00:45:01,920
with language that happens from language existing in communities.

753
00:45:01,920 –> 00:45:03,680
And that work is important.

754
00:45:03,680 –> 00:45:08,220
But that work is only as good as our ability to then say, OK, what does that then mean

755
00:45:08,220 –> 00:45:13,040
for the brain and people doing the cognitive neuroscience aspect of that, or people going

756
00:45:13,040 –> 00:45:19,060
into the more theoretical subfields and saying, no, if black English is as legitimate as any

757
00:45:19,060 –> 00:45:23,900
other language, then why don’t we use this language to test some of these theories or

758
00:45:23,900 –> 00:45:28,980
models within, let’s say, phonology, which is about structuring speech sounds or syntax,

759
00:45:28,980 –> 00:45:32,300
which is about how words are structured into sentences.

760
00:45:32,300 –> 00:45:35,180
We need people to be in those spaces, too.

761
00:45:35,180 –> 00:45:38,380
And we need black linguists in computational linguistics.

762
00:45:38,380 –> 00:45:43,700
So if you really want to worry about job situation, job security, and you’re like, I’ll do whatever

763
00:45:43,700 –> 00:45:46,700
pays money, become a computational linguist.

764
00:45:46,700 –> 00:45:51,340
Because if I hear another tech company coming through with this job offer, like, we need

765
00:45:51,340 –> 00:45:59,020
somebody who can help us get AI, human interfacing technology to work, so getting Siri to work,

766
00:45:59,020 –> 00:46:03,820
getting Alexa to work, and best believe, Siri and Alexa does not like black Sarah voice.

767
00:46:03,820 –> 00:46:07,660
I got put on WASPY Sarah voice for Siri to work.

768
00:46:07,660 –> 00:46:12,340
Well, we need more black linguists who can do that work and make sure our technology

769
00:46:12,340 –> 00:46:14,740
is also inclusive of us, too.

770
00:46:14,740 –> 00:46:17,420
And that actually requires linguists.

771
00:46:17,420 –> 00:46:19,500
Another thing, speech language pathologists.

772
00:46:19,500 –> 00:46:24,200
Here’s another career field that we desperately need black people in, and a linguistics training

773
00:46:24,200 –> 00:46:30,220
will help you get there, because I’m collaborating with a black speech language pathologist who

774
00:46:30,220 –> 00:46:32,740
also is now a neuroscientist.

775
00:46:32,740 –> 00:46:39,580
She got her PhD because there was not enough research on speech language pathology concerning

776
00:46:39,580 –> 00:46:40,580
black people.

777
00:46:40,580 –> 00:46:44,600
And she was like, well, I guess let me go do this PhD so I can do that research because

778
00:46:44,600 –> 00:46:47,460
we need that so desperately.

779
00:46:47,460 –> 00:46:51,940
And there’s always a demand for speech language pathologists, whether it’s working with children,

780
00:46:51,940 –> 00:46:57,260
but in particular, working with adults, in particular, given the fact that stroke and

781
00:46:57,260 –> 00:47:03,320
heart attack is so prevalent in black and brown communities, like stroke disproportionately

782
00:47:03,320 –> 00:47:04,780
affects black people.

783
00:47:04,780 –> 00:47:10,580
And so from that, there’s now a greater proportion or probability of black people who suffer from

784
00:47:10,580 –> 00:47:12,780
stroke developing chronic aphasia.

785
00:47:12,780 –> 00:47:19,020
And yet we don’t have enough SLPs, let alone black SLPs, to support these people and helping

786
00:47:19,020 –> 00:47:24,260
them regain some quality of life should they survive a stroke, which is basically where

787
00:47:24,260 –> 00:47:27,980
part of your brain cannot get oxygen that it needed to function.

788
00:47:27,980 –> 00:47:29,540
And that’s very scary.

789
00:47:29,540 –> 00:47:34,520
So I think if we can get more black people in linguistics and go into these different

790
00:47:34,520 –> 00:47:42,740
fields and introduce other people, despite what gatekeeping they see, to what that means

791
00:47:42,740 –> 00:47:49,100
and be willing to do that work because it is exhausting, it is very much an uphill battle

792
00:47:49,100 –> 00:47:50,100
still.

793
00:47:50,100 –> 00:47:56,660
It is worth it because it can have very direct consequences for us as people in general,

794
00:47:56,660 –> 00:47:59,300
not just black people, but for people in general.

795
00:47:59,300 –> 00:48:00,300
And we need that.

796
00:48:00,300 –> 00:48:01,900
We so desperately need that.

797
00:48:01,900 –> 00:48:07,820
Your words make me feel hopeful that this future can exist because it sounds so needed

798
00:48:07,820 –> 00:48:11,140
and that you can even if you don’t know anything about linguistics, like I’m sure a lot of

799
00:48:11,140 –> 00:48:15,020
listeners at home, you see these effects in day to day life, right?

800
00:48:15,020 –> 00:48:20,340
Linguistics sounds like this far off, like, oh, that seems like real dense academic, whatever

801
00:48:20,340 –> 00:48:21,340
people may think.

802
00:48:21,340 –> 00:48:24,740
But this affects your day to day life talking about speech pathologists.

803
00:48:24,740 –> 00:48:28,140
And I didn’t even know about computational linguistics.

804
00:48:28,140 –> 00:48:29,140
That’s wild.

805
00:48:29,140 –> 00:48:33,380
And it’s not something I would have thought about exactly, except that I know if I’m using

806
00:48:33,380 –> 00:48:37,500
voice to whatever Siri Alexa, those types of programs, I know that I have to speak in

807
00:48:37,500 –> 00:48:41,580
a very certain way in order to make sure it understands what I’m asking.

808
00:48:41,580 –> 00:48:42,660
And how did I learn that?

809
00:48:42,660 –> 00:48:43,660
Why is that the case?

810
00:48:43,660 –> 00:48:45,460
Like these are that is so fascinating.

811
00:48:45,460 –> 00:48:50,060
I too hope that more people become interested in the field and just check it out.

812
00:48:50,060 –> 00:48:51,780
If you’re listening, I employ you.

813
00:48:51,780 –> 00:48:52,780
Just check it out.

814
00:48:52,780 –> 00:48:53,780
See if it’s for you.

815
00:48:53,780 –> 00:48:56,020
I mean, like Sarah said, you are a math and science person.

816
00:48:56,020 –> 00:48:59,020
You didn’t know that this field was going to be open to you.

817
00:48:59,020 –> 00:49:01,100
And yet here you are.

818
00:49:01,100 –> 00:49:02,580
Now I have a whole doctor in it.

819
00:49:02,580 –> 00:49:03,580
It’s wild.

820
00:49:03,580 –> 00:49:05,180
Who would have thought, right?

821
00:49:05,180 –> 00:49:08,620
Again, this is just a nerdy interest of mine.

822
00:49:08,620 –> 00:49:10,020
I’m so fascinated by it.

823
00:49:10,020 –> 00:49:12,620
I learned so much just in this talk alone.

824
00:49:12,620 –> 00:49:17,620
So if y’all have questions for Sarah or just questions about linguistics in general, please

825
00:49:17,620 –> 00:49:20,460
let us know because I will definitely pass them on to Sarah.

826
00:49:20,460 –> 00:49:23,620
And if we get enough, yeah, maybe we’ll have to do a part two.

827
00:49:23,620 –> 00:49:27,060
But until then, thank you so much, Sarah, for coming on.

828
00:49:27,060 –> 00:49:28,900
Tell the good folks where they can find you.

829
00:49:28,900 –> 00:49:35,300
You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, even though that might become a dumpster fire if

830
00:49:35,300 –> 00:49:41,420
it’s not already one, and TikTok, all three social media platforms as saralinguist.

831
00:49:41,420 –> 00:49:45,140
So that’s S-A-R-A-H-L-I-N-G-U-I-S-T.

832
00:49:45,140 –> 00:49:47,780
You can find me on social media.

833
00:49:47,780 –> 00:49:49,420
Try to be consistent about content.

834
00:49:49,420 –> 00:49:52,100
But I also keep my social media accessible.

835
00:49:52,100 –> 00:49:55,980
So if you send me a message or DM, as long as it’s appropriate, I don’t mind responding

836
00:49:55,980 –> 00:49:57,500
and being as helpful as I can.

837
00:49:57,500 –> 00:49:58,500
Well, great.

838
00:49:58,500 –> 00:49:59,840
Thank you everyone for joining me.

839
00:49:59,840 –> 00:50:01,580
And thank you all so much for listening.

840
00:50:01,580 –> 00:50:05,100
I’m curious if you all have questions or if you’re learning any languages.

841
00:50:05,100 –> 00:50:08,300
Have you wanted to learn a language but couldn’t for one reason or the other?

842
00:50:08,300 –> 00:50:12,220
You can let me know at Culture X Podcast on Twitter or IG.

843
00:50:12,220 –> 00:50:15,740
And you can join us next week where we will be joined by Sheila, the band.

844
00:50:15,740 –> 00:50:37,740
And until then, keep it chill and keep it nerdy.

May 22 2023

[4] Storytelling and Bonds

[4] Storytelling and Bonds feat. Bayana A. Davis

Listen on...

Watch on YouTube

When you buy books through the above links, I earn a small commission. Thanks y’all!

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In this episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews Bayana A. Davis, writer, host of the podcast #WizardTeam, and CEO of Black Nerds Create. We discuss Naruto, bonds, siblings, Black boy vulnerability, and books. What are your cross cultural book recommendations?

Book Recommendations:

Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao*, Daughter of the Moon Goddess* by Sue Lynn Tan*, These Violent Delights, Our Violent Ends, & Foul Lady Fortune* by Chloe Gong*, Jade City by* Fonda Lee.

Things discussed in this episode:

Anime & Manga: Naruto, Wallflower, Puchi Puri Princess, Dragon Ball Z, One Piece, Bleach, Boondocks
Avatar the Last Airbender
- Zutara
K-dramas
Famous folks: Megan thee Stallion, Michael B. Jordan
Legendborn by Tracey Deonn
Lord of the Rings
Reboot culture

Guest

This episode’s guest, is my homie, Bayana A. Davis host of the podcast #WizardTeam, CEO of Black Nerds Create, and writer. You can find her in these places:

Site | Podcast | Instagram | Twitter

Find us online:

Site | Patreon | Instagram | Twitter

Credits

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: Delia

Personal Twitter | Personal Instagram | Personal Site

About Culture by Culture

Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

1
00:00:00,000 –> 00:00:04,480
Hey there, welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi-dimensional exploration of Black and

2
00:00:04,480 –> 00:00:05,840
Asian pop cultural ties.

3
00:00:05,840 –> 00:00:12,760
I’m your friendly host, Delia, and today I’m joined by the CEO of Black Marriage Create.

4
00:00:12,760 –> 00:00:17,880
She’s also one third of the Fantasy Podcasts Wizard team, a writer, and my homie, Briana

5
00:00:17,880 –> 00:00:18,880
Davis.

6
00:00:18,880 –> 00:00:19,880
Yay!

7
00:00:19,880 –> 00:00:20,880
Hi!

8
00:00:20,880 –> 00:00:21,880
Hi!

9
00:00:21,880 –> 00:00:22,880
How’s it going?

10
00:00:22,880 –> 00:00:23,880
Good!

11
00:00:23,880 –> 00:00:24,880
I’m excited.

12
00:00:24,880 –> 00:00:25,880
Thank you for granting us your presence.

13
00:00:25,880 –> 00:00:28,720
You’re a very, very busy person, I know, as the homie.

14
00:00:28,720 –> 00:00:29,720
Yeah, that’s true.

15
00:00:29,720 –> 00:00:33,360
But also, you know, duh, of course I was gonna be here, so.

16
00:00:33,360 –> 00:00:36,280
Listeners, it depends where you’re coming from.

17
00:00:36,280 –> 00:00:39,760
If you’re coming from the BNC audience, like you’ve definitely heard us on podcasts, we’ve

18
00:00:39,760 –> 00:00:40,760
done a lot together.

19
00:00:40,760 –> 00:00:42,840
This is not our first go-round for sure.

20
00:00:42,840 –> 00:00:47,400
We’ve done things like BNC Presents Tolkien of Black Girls, where we talked about Lord

21
00:00:47,400 –> 00:00:49,860
of the Rings, because we are big Lord of the Rings fans.

22
00:00:49,860 –> 00:00:51,680
Not this audience, but just noting.

23
00:00:51,680 –> 00:00:56,800
We also did one that was Patreon exclusive for now, called Chakran Vibes, where we talked

24
00:00:56,800 –> 00:00:57,800
about Naruto.

25
00:00:57,800 –> 00:00:59,920
Yeah, our chaotic son.

26
00:00:59,920 –> 00:01:03,520
Yeah, I think this might be the first thing we’ve been on together, though, that we can

27
00:01:03,520 –> 00:01:07,000
like publicly talk about anime and things like that, so I’m pretty excited.

28
00:01:07,000 –> 00:01:08,000
Yeah, me too.

29
00:01:08,000 –> 00:01:12,960
So I guess we could start with, what are your, I kind of spoiled it a little bit with Naruto,

30
00:01:12,960 –> 00:01:16,840
but in general, what are your experiences with Asian pop culture?

31
00:01:16,840 –> 00:01:20,160
Yeah, so, I mean, primarily Naruto.

32
00:01:20,160 –> 00:01:26,640
I started reading the manga when I was like, nine or ten maybe?

33
00:01:26,640 –> 00:01:31,400
My brothers were like a year and a half apart, and so he started a lot at that time.

34
00:01:31,400 –> 00:01:35,240
Growing up, we shared books for the most part, so we have very similar tastes, and so he

35
00:01:35,240 –> 00:01:38,480
was reading it, and I had finished my books, so I was like, well, let me see what’s going

36
00:01:38,480 –> 00:01:39,480
on over here.

37
00:01:39,480 –> 00:01:42,320
And then it kind of just went from there.

38
00:01:42,320 –> 00:01:48,560
I also, I realized, as you were saying, we’re, I don’t know, something sparked in my head.

39
00:01:48,560 –> 00:01:51,560
Waflower, that- Oh my goodness.

40
00:01:51,560 –> 00:01:57,000
I’m like, I can’t, I don’t think that’s the full name, but that was big for me in high

41
00:01:57,000 –> 00:01:58,000
school.

42
00:01:58,000 –> 00:02:00,240
What a wonderful time.

43
00:02:00,240 –> 00:02:04,280
There were like, I feel like in high school, there were like mangas that I would read.

44
00:02:04,280 –> 00:02:08,040
I’m not remembering names though, because I feel like I just was like reading them and

45
00:02:08,040 –> 00:02:12,120
then moving on, and you know, you would be online and you get like one chapter at a time

46
00:02:12,120 –> 00:02:13,120
or whatever.

47
00:02:13,120 –> 00:02:14,200
And like, that’s pretty much it.

48
00:02:14,200 –> 00:02:20,880
I have wanted to get like more into anime, but I am notoriously bad at watching television

49
00:02:20,880 –> 00:02:23,600
and have been for the last like five or something years.

50
00:02:23,600 –> 00:02:24,600
That’s gonna be a theme.

51
00:02:24,600 –> 00:02:25,600
I know.

52
00:02:25,600 –> 00:02:26,880
And so I feel like a fraud.

53
00:02:26,880 –> 00:02:28,600
I’m like, I love the themes of anime.

54
00:02:28,600 –> 00:02:33,440
I want to watch more anime, but I never have time and I never like, I just have it.

55
00:02:33,440 –> 00:02:37,480
It’s just the list is growing, but has not actually, none of it’s been checked off.

56
00:02:37,480 –> 00:02:44,400
And then I like similarly asked Delia like two years ago to make me a list of K-dramas

57
00:02:44,400 –> 00:02:45,400
I should watch.

58
00:02:45,400 –> 00:02:50,000
And I’ve seen two in that like two years, two in full.

59
00:02:50,000 –> 00:02:55,240
So it’s rough out here and I’m on my like fourth rewatch of Naruto right now, but that’s

60
00:02:55,240 –> 00:03:00,880
partially because I’m watching it with my younger sister who is like watching it for

61
00:03:00,880 –> 00:03:01,880
the first time.

62
00:03:01,880 –> 00:03:02,880
Yeah, we’ll allow it.

63
00:03:02,880 –> 00:03:03,880
Yes.

64
00:03:03,880 –> 00:03:09,600
That list is languishing, but to be fair, it’s almost like it’s kind of a thing we

65
00:03:09,600 –> 00:03:11,280
have like a push and pull.

66
00:03:11,280 –> 00:03:13,160
I give her K-dramas to watch.

67
00:03:13,160 –> 00:03:14,480
She says she’ll watch them one day.

68
00:03:14,480 –> 00:03:15,520
She gives me books to read.

69
00:03:15,520 –> 00:03:17,240
I say I’ll read them one day.

70
00:03:17,240 –> 00:03:18,240
It’s the dynamic.

71
00:03:18,240 –> 00:03:21,600
And you know, I believe in us.

72
00:03:21,600 –> 00:03:22,600
It will happen.

73
00:03:22,600 –> 00:03:23,600
Like that’s what I’m saying.

74
00:03:23,600 –> 00:03:25,480
The thing is, I truly believe our intentions.

75
00:03:25,480 –> 00:03:29,480
Like I know we both intend to, but just life be the way it is sometimes.

76
00:03:29,480 –> 00:03:35,200
And it’ll eventually all the stars will align and it’ll be great.

77
00:03:35,200 –> 00:03:36,200
It’ll be great.

78
00:03:36,200 –> 00:03:39,520
I will say you mentioned the wallflower and I think that is what it was called.

79
00:03:39,520 –> 00:03:43,280
I don’t remember its Japanese name, but I’m so curious.

80
00:03:43,280 –> 00:03:46,480
We’ve talked about that we both liked it, but I don’t know how you got into it because

81
00:03:46,480 –> 00:03:49,640
it was not incredibly popular.

82
00:03:49,640 –> 00:03:51,280
I feel like it was pretty niche.

83
00:03:51,280 –> 00:03:58,360
I think it was like one of my friends in high school was like, we kind of, I don’t remember

84
00:03:58,360 –> 00:04:05,200
why or how it came up, but I know that she like let me borrow like maybe the first two

85
00:04:05,200 –> 00:04:07,280
copies or something.

86
00:04:07,280 –> 00:04:11,640
And yeah, like I read them and then I sat that was around the same time that I realized

87
00:04:11,640 –> 00:04:15,840
that I didn’t have to wait around to like buy like we used to buy all the like Naruto,

88
00:04:15,840 –> 00:04:17,520
you know, we go to Barnes and Noble and like buy them.

89
00:04:17,520 –> 00:04:23,000
And then I eventually realized like, no, this is like actually much further along and like

90
00:04:23,000 –> 00:04:25,920
waiting on American publishing is not going to work for me.

91
00:04:25,920 –> 00:04:27,960
So you know, the internet.

92
00:04:27,960 –> 00:04:31,520
So yes, I like went from there, but yeah, somebody introduced it to me and then I just

93
00:04:31,520 –> 00:04:33,960
like found it and just read it.

94
00:04:33,960 –> 00:04:35,960
And like, it’s very different vibe from Naruto.

95
00:04:35,960 –> 00:04:36,960
Let me know.

96
00:04:36,960 –> 00:04:37,960
Yeah, it’s completely different.

97
00:04:37,960 –> 00:04:44,040
It’s like has some has some elements, you know, their choices that are made for those

98
00:04:44,040 –> 00:04:45,040
who don’t know.

99
00:04:45,040 –> 00:04:51,120
So it’s a yeah, I guess it is a harem manga and like theme or reverse harem, reverse harem

100
00:04:51,120 –> 00:04:52,120
death.

101
00:04:52,120 –> 00:04:53,120
Yeah.

102
00:04:53,120 –> 00:04:56,720
And it’s about this girl whose name is Sunako, I think.

103
00:04:56,720 –> 00:04:59,360
And they know this lady, they’re staying in her house.

104
00:04:59,360 –> 00:05:03,720
So I guess they’re like her daughter or something like that.

105
00:05:03,720 –> 00:05:09,400
They’re trying to turn her into this nice lady because Sunako is like a goth girl, but

106
00:05:09,400 –> 00:05:13,600
like who also happens to look like Samara from the ring a little bit, which was a big

107
00:05:13,600 –> 00:05:15,520
theme back in the day in anime.

108
00:05:15,520 –> 00:05:16,520
Yeah.

109
00:05:16,520 –> 00:05:20,800
And it sounds like on the surface, like, OK, what was so significant about it, but it was

110
00:05:20,800 –> 00:05:22,520
so funny.

111
00:05:22,520 –> 00:05:25,960
And I just really in weird ways related to that character.

112
00:05:25,960 –> 00:05:29,240
Yeah, it was just like, I don’t know, it was hilarious.

113
00:05:29,240 –> 00:05:32,920
And there were just like these moments where like all of a sudden she would like turn around

114
00:05:32,920 –> 00:05:37,960
and be like gorgeous and everybody’s like, oh my god, like just like two seconds later

115
00:05:37,960 –> 00:05:42,240
would be like, no, it was like, it was almost like she was a cat in some ways, too, like

116
00:05:42,240 –> 00:05:45,520
the way that she would like slip and they would like, yeah.

117
00:05:45,520 –> 00:05:49,800
And so it’s like these, it’s like four or five dudes who have to like help her, like,

118
00:05:49,800 –> 00:05:50,800
you know, lady.

119
00:05:50,800 –> 00:05:51,800
Yeah.

120
00:05:51,800 –> 00:05:54,800
And they like are also hilarious and like have this.

121
00:05:54,800 –> 00:05:55,800
I don’t know.

122
00:05:55,800 –> 00:06:00,400
It was it was a time and I was really into it for like, for that time.

123
00:06:00,400 –> 00:06:04,280
Yeah, I was really also also and as well into it.

124
00:06:04,280 –> 00:06:09,720
I think you can see it like in the anime I’m even interested in like later.

125
00:06:09,720 –> 00:06:11,840
It definitely in four of my days, like I feel like it was a pivotal.

126
00:06:11,840 –> 00:06:16,800
Like, you know, you have these, I feel like tent pole media that you take in as you develop

127
00:06:16,800 –> 00:06:20,320
and they inform from then on, like the rest of your media choices.

128
00:06:20,320 –> 00:06:24,880
Weirdly, I feel like the wallflower like is one of those for me where I was like, yeah.

129
00:06:24,880 –> 00:06:29,440
And I don’t even know how we ended up like, I think I like found one of the books like

130
00:06:29,440 –> 00:06:34,680
in my maybe I was like cleaning my at one point I was like giving away a bunch of books.

131
00:06:34,680 –> 00:06:35,680
I think I just found it.

132
00:06:35,680 –> 00:06:40,200
And I don’t know why I sent it to you because like I wasn’t like I knew at the time that

133
00:06:40,200 –> 00:06:41,200
you had been into it.

134
00:06:41,200 –> 00:06:42,880
Yeah, I don’t remember how it came up either.

135
00:06:42,880 –> 00:06:48,400
But maybe because we’re like similar age, I think I was just like, of everyone, of all

136
00:06:48,400 –> 00:06:53,600
our homies, I feel like Delia is gonna feel me right now.

137
00:06:53,600 –> 00:06:58,280
And I did I was so shook because I even when you brought it up, I don’t think I thought

138
00:06:58,280 –> 00:07:02,000
about it like, yeah, it’s just one of those things like maybe like casually in my head,

139
00:07:02,000 –> 00:07:07,080
I’d reference just to myself because the way Sonoko like experiences well, that’s not how

140
00:07:07,080 –> 00:07:11,000
she puts it but I take the way she seems to experience attraction like she just talked

141
00:07:11,000 –> 00:07:15,480
about how too beautiful everybody is and like they’re too bright and like, she has to shield

142
00:07:15,480 –> 00:07:16,480
herself from that.

143
00:07:16,480 –> 00:07:20,280
That’s how I feel like I very much when I see attractive people, it’s not like lust

144
00:07:20,280 –> 00:07:21,280
or anything.

145
00:07:21,280 –> 00:07:23,280
I’m just like, Whoa, okay, you’re doing way too much.

146
00:07:23,280 –> 00:07:27,240
Please tone it down when I need you to stop.

147
00:07:27,240 –> 00:07:28,240
Relax.

148
00:07:28,240 –> 00:07:29,240
Relax.

149
00:07:29,240 –> 00:07:30,240
You didn’t have to do all that.

150
00:07:30,240 –> 00:07:31,920
And I’ve always related to that.

151
00:07:31,920 –> 00:07:36,200
So in the back of my head, she comes up actually kind of a lot because when I have those feelings,

152
00:07:36,200 –> 00:07:37,560
I can just picture her.

153
00:07:37,560 –> 00:07:38,560
Yeah.

154
00:07:38,560 –> 00:07:41,760
Trying to like scramble away from the bright creatures.

155
00:07:41,760 –> 00:07:44,800
Yeah, it was it was such a it was such a time.

156
00:07:44,800 –> 00:07:49,840
I think the anime like the first season is on Hulu, but it’s only dubbed and I support

157
00:07:49,840 –> 00:07:50,840
voice actors.

158
00:07:50,840 –> 00:07:53,920
I support people who find dubbed more accessible.

159
00:07:53,920 –> 00:07:55,200
It’s just not for me.

160
00:07:55,200 –> 00:08:00,120
And so yeah, unfortunately, I will have to pass on that one.

161
00:08:00,120 –> 00:08:06,120
I like have it on my like in my stuff or whatever, just in case one day I decide like I can do

162
00:08:06,120 –> 00:08:12,040
it, I’m gonna try but that that day has not yet come.

163
00:08:12,040 –> 00:08:14,480
Yeah, maybe that would be more I don’t know.

164
00:08:14,480 –> 00:08:18,880
Well, maybe one day maybe I’ll just want to see some certain scenes and I’ll and I’ll

165
00:08:18,880 –> 00:08:19,880
try it out.

166
00:08:19,880 –> 00:08:24,320
But yeah, there’s like this other manga and I this one I do not remember what it was called

167
00:08:24,320 –> 00:08:28,320
was like this dude who was like trying to help this girl they like went to school together

168
00:08:28,320 –> 00:08:30,760
like help her get a boyfriend or whatever.

169
00:08:30,760 –> 00:08:34,320
And then like in the process, they start dating.

170
00:08:34,320 –> 00:08:36,920
And then then it’s just about their relationship or whatever.

171
00:08:36,920 –> 00:08:37,920
It was very cute.

172
00:08:37,920 –> 00:08:41,960
I swear like I can see it in my head, but I could not tell you what it was called.

173
00:08:41,960 –> 00:08:43,320
I did this the other day.

174
00:08:43,320 –> 00:08:46,600
I was recording with Sailor Moon fan club.

175
00:08:46,600 –> 00:08:49,680
And while we were talking, I didn’t bring it up because I was like there was a magical

176
00:08:49,680 –> 00:08:54,320
girl anime that I watched, even though I didn’t like those types of anime at the time because

177
00:08:54,320 –> 00:08:57,840
I wasn’t hair flip like other girls.

178
00:08:57,840 –> 00:08:59,800
But one snuck in and I really liked it.

179
00:08:59,800 –> 00:09:03,440
And it had a black character who was super problematic, honestly, but I still it was

180
00:09:03,440 –> 00:09:05,800
like a black character in an anime who was a girl.

181
00:09:05,800 –> 00:09:07,420
So I was still all about it.

182
00:09:07,420 –> 00:09:08,480
And I couldn’t remember.

183
00:09:08,480 –> 00:09:11,760
But after I recorded that episode, I was scrolling and scrolling and scrolling trying to find

184
00:09:11,760 –> 00:09:13,160
just going through lists.

185
00:09:13,160 –> 00:09:15,520
And then the name just came to me out of nowhere.

186
00:09:15,520 –> 00:09:17,980
And I found it, which was exciting.

187
00:09:17,980 –> 00:09:19,840
And it looks just as problematic as I remember.

188
00:09:19,840 –> 00:09:20,840
So that’s lovely.

189
00:09:20,840 –> 00:09:23,680
Yeah, I’m like, I haven’t thought too deeply about it.

190
00:09:23,680 –> 00:09:26,960
I’m sure if I tried to like look like something similar would probably happen.

191
00:09:26,960 –> 00:09:31,360
But it’s been so long that it’s like, it occasionally pops in my head like, oh, yeah, I did read

192
00:09:31,360 –> 00:09:32,360
that.

193
00:09:32,360 –> 00:09:33,360
But yeah, the memory of childhood.

194
00:09:33,360 –> 00:09:37,080
The further it gets, the more I’m like, huh, there’s whole books I’ve read that I don’t

195
00:09:37,080 –> 00:09:38,080
even know about.

196
00:09:38,080 –> 00:09:39,080
I couldn’t even tell you.

197
00:09:39,080 –> 00:09:42,080
Never thought there’d be a time.

198
00:09:42,080 –> 00:09:43,080
That’s so wild to me.

199
00:09:43,080 –> 00:09:44,080
Yeah.

200
00:09:44,080 –> 00:09:48,920
We’ve talked about, I know, that you kind of had a different experience of like taking

201
00:09:48,920 –> 00:09:52,560
in media growing up than I think maybe a lot of audience members.

202
00:09:52,560 –> 00:09:53,560
I don’t know.

203
00:09:53,560 –> 00:09:56,200
Definitely than our friend in our friend group.

204
00:09:56,200 –> 00:10:02,360
And so I do wonder how that influenced how you experience fan spaces and how did you

205
00:10:02,360 –> 00:10:05,480
experience fan spaces around the media that we’re talking about?

206
00:10:05,480 –> 00:10:11,840
I mean, I’m very insular, like very on my own about it, like didn’t really think about

207
00:10:11,840 –> 00:10:13,960
like for one, I didn’t watch a lot of anime.

208
00:10:13,960 –> 00:10:18,360
And that wasn’t like part of it was because like we had like we didn’t watch TV during

209
00:10:18,360 –> 00:10:20,960
the week, like we really can only watch it on the weekends.

210
00:10:20,960 –> 00:10:23,080
So a lot of it I was reading.

211
00:10:23,080 –> 00:10:27,160
And then on top of that, like I wasn’t on the internet like that.

212
00:10:27,160 –> 00:10:31,720
And so most of it was just me or like I mentioned my brother like if it was when when it was

213
00:10:31,720 –> 00:10:35,840
Naruto it was like I was talking to my brother and then our two god brothers and it was like

214
00:10:35,840 –> 00:10:41,040
the four of us and occasionally we’d be like, oh, yo, did you like read up to this or whatever?

215
00:10:41,040 –> 00:10:44,440
And like, I also am somebody who’s very like I’m impatient.

216
00:10:44,440 –> 00:10:51,080
So like, I have I had tried to or like had watched Naruto a few times at that time, but

217
00:10:51,080 –> 00:10:56,160
because it wasn’t like caught up to the manga, I was like, okay, well, we’ll come back to

218
00:10:56,160 –> 00:10:57,160
this later.

219
00:10:57,160 –> 00:11:01,080
I’m like, now I’m like, I’m just gonna watch the anime, like I don’t have the time to be

220
00:11:01,080 –> 00:11:03,480
sitting up reading all them chapters and stuff.

221
00:11:03,480 –> 00:11:07,240
But like, yeah, a lot of it was just like, I’m reading it on my own, like a friend might

222
00:11:07,240 –> 00:11:12,400
recommend something to me and then I go off on my own or like, occasionally talking but

223
00:11:12,400 –> 00:11:17,600
it was very like, and it’s also probably why I didn’t get in like, like way deeper.

224
00:11:17,600 –> 00:11:22,840
It’s like not like I had internet homies or other friends who I was talking to about it.

225
00:11:22,840 –> 00:11:27,280
So it was like, I think I watched Pokemon when I was like six watched it for like, I

226
00:11:27,280 –> 00:11:28,840
was obsessed with it for like a year or two.

227
00:11:28,840 –> 00:11:34,600
But my parents, they remember all types of Pokemon that I don’t remember because I like

228
00:11:34,600 –> 00:11:36,400
fell off of it so quick.

229
00:11:36,400 –> 00:11:42,280
Like, so they were, you know, grown so they’re like, oh, that that era or whatever.

230
00:11:42,280 –> 00:11:48,400
But like, yeah, so it was just like, it was very like just me by myself chilling.

231
00:11:48,400 –> 00:11:52,480
If you could go back in time, is there a fandom space you would have liked to engage with

232
00:11:52,480 –> 00:11:53,480
more?

233
00:11:53,480 –> 00:11:54,480
Or were you even aware of them?

234
00:11:54,480 –> 00:11:55,480
I guess maybe that’s the first question.

235
00:11:55,480 –> 00:11:58,560
Yeah, I don’t know that I was even I mean, I guess I was like I knew about Dragon Ball

236
00:11:58,560 –> 00:11:59,560
Z.

237
00:11:59,560 –> 00:12:01,280
Because you know, like Toonami was still a thing.

238
00:12:01,280 –> 00:12:03,360
It’s not like I completely missed that.

239
00:12:03,360 –> 00:12:07,160
I think if I knew more folks who are into it, I probably would have gotten into Dragon

240
00:12:07,160 –> 00:12:08,160
Ball Z.

241
00:12:08,160 –> 00:12:09,160
I maybe would have stayed in Pokemon.

242
00:12:09,160 –> 00:12:14,960
I maybe would have like started One Piece or Bleach back when they were, you know, younger.

243
00:12:14,960 –> 00:12:23,000
I was talking to my sister because we’ve been just kind of talking about I’m like, maybe

244
00:12:23,000 –> 00:12:26,760
she’ll get me to actually watch more anime because she’s super into it and wants to do

245
00:12:26,760 –> 00:12:27,760
more.

246
00:12:27,760 –> 00:12:31,400
And she was like, I guess somebody had mentioned One Piece to her and I was like, yeah, but

247
00:12:31,400 –> 00:12:34,400
that’s like more than One Piece.

248
00:12:34,400 –> 00:12:37,920
She was like, yeah, I don’t think we should do that.

249
00:12:37,920 –> 00:12:41,520
I was like, we’ve already done Naruto and that’s like a thousand episodes.

250
00:12:41,520 –> 00:12:45,080
So I don’t know if we want to do that again right off the bat.

251
00:12:45,080 –> 00:12:49,080
But yeah, so I think that I probably just would have like I was aware of those things,

252
00:12:49,080 –> 00:12:51,120
but I just didn’t get all the way in.

253
00:12:51,120 –> 00:12:53,200
And so maybe I would have.

254
00:12:53,200 –> 00:12:56,240
What are your because we’re talking about you Pokemon fell off, you might have gotten

255
00:12:56,240 –> 00:12:57,440
into these are things.

256
00:12:57,440 –> 00:13:00,640
What would you consider your current active fandoms or things you’re into?

257
00:13:00,640 –> 00:13:04,200
Oh, yeah, Nars, especially because I’m like watching it now.

258
00:13:04,200 –> 00:13:07,640
Lord of the Rings Avatar, which I guess counts.

259
00:13:07,640 –> 00:13:10,240
I guess I can also.

260
00:13:10,240 –> 00:13:13,200
Okay, before we get an avatar, the boondocks.

261
00:13:13,200 –> 00:13:14,760
Oh, so true.

262
00:13:14,760 –> 00:13:20,600
So true because so I growing up my dad had the I think I actually still have a few of

263
00:13:20,600 –> 00:13:22,160
the comic books and which everyone’s I don’t have.

264
00:13:22,160 –> 00:13:23,840
He probably does like he was reading them.

265
00:13:23,840 –> 00:13:25,920
And so, you know, you just find things.

266
00:13:25,920 –> 00:13:27,920
He allowed me to read them.

267
00:13:27,920 –> 00:13:30,920
So I read them like you know, he wasn’t like this is inappropriate.

268
00:13:30,920 –> 00:13:33,240
I think by the time I got to them, it was fine.

269
00:13:33,240 –> 00:13:34,640
And then the show came out when I was in high school.

270
00:13:34,640 –> 00:13:36,160
So we would watch it together.

271
00:13:36,160 –> 00:13:41,120
And like, they’re definitely there’s one fight scene that is like, word for word bar for

272
00:13:41,120 –> 00:13:42,120
bar.

273
00:13:42,120 –> 00:13:47,160
Arochi Maru when he’s fighting Sasuke like the first time when they’re in the forest

274
00:13:47,160 –> 00:13:48,160
of death.

275
00:13:48,160 –> 00:13:51,800
There’s like they’ve done like I’ve seen like videos where they put them side by side and

276
00:13:51,800 –> 00:13:53,160
like the choreography is the same.

277
00:13:53,160 –> 00:13:54,160
I didn’t know that.

278
00:13:54,160 –> 00:13:55,160
Yeah.

279
00:13:55,160 –> 00:13:56,160
And then like it’s tight to watch.

280
00:13:56,160 –> 00:13:58,080
It’s like, oh, OK.

281
00:13:58,080 –> 00:14:02,600
There’s this kickball episode of the Boondocks that’s like straight up anime.

282
00:14:02,600 –> 00:14:06,600
It’s I mean, like the animation obviously is but like the right but just the way that

283
00:14:06,600 –> 00:14:11,120
they style and style it like it’s super and I haven’t seen that in a it’s been a minute

284
00:14:11,120 –> 00:14:12,440
since I’ve watched the Boondocks.

285
00:14:12,440 –> 00:14:13,880
But yeah, I was super into that.

286
00:14:13,880 –> 00:14:18,840
Like as a kid through like high school and then Avatar.

287
00:14:18,840 –> 00:14:20,720
Avatar is such a big one.

288
00:14:20,720 –> 00:14:23,960
I thought that’s absolutely a current fan for me.

289
00:14:23,960 –> 00:14:25,280
Yeah, past fandom, current fandom.

290
00:14:25,280 –> 00:14:30,600
The thing is when it was airing, like I liked it, but it wasn’t as encompassing.

291
00:14:30,600 –> 00:14:31,600
I wouldn’t say no.

292
00:14:31,600 –> 00:14:34,080
But I also think it’s the way that it came out.

293
00:14:34,080 –> 00:14:39,200
Like it was, you know, it was on Nickelodeon and like I don’t even remember how shows

294
00:14:39,200 –> 00:14:40,200
came out at the time.

295
00:14:40,200 –> 00:14:43,640
We were just getting like DVR as a thing.

296
00:14:43,640 –> 00:14:46,720
And like if you missed an episode, you missed it.

297
00:14:46,720 –> 00:14:50,920
I would watch it with my siblings and stuff and like we were into it, but it definitely

298
00:14:50,920 –> 00:14:53,240
wasn’t like I saw it from beginning to end.

299
00:14:53,240 –> 00:14:56,400
But I knew I had missed some stuff in the middle and like, oh for sure.

300
00:14:56,400 –> 00:14:59,760
And was coming, you know, at that point you have to be okay with it.

301
00:14:59,760 –> 00:15:01,080
Now you can be upset about that.

302
00:15:01,080 –> 00:15:03,040
But like back then you just, it is what it is.

303
00:15:03,040 –> 00:15:04,680
And so people really don’t remember.

304
00:15:04,680 –> 00:15:06,400
You really had to just roll with the punches.

305
00:15:06,400 –> 00:15:07,400
Yeah.

306
00:15:07,400 –> 00:15:13,040
Then you just had to catch, you would catch a marathon for random like Saturday morning

307
00:15:13,040 –> 00:15:17,840
or you know, they’d play like three episodes in a row, but none of them were in order.

308
00:15:17,840 –> 00:15:21,480
And you’re just like, okay, guess that’s what we’re watching for now.

309
00:15:21,480 –> 00:15:25,080
And then you’re also going back and forth between because commercials happen.

310
00:15:25,080 –> 00:15:28,760
So now you’re like, okay, I’m a split between watching that and like something on Disney

311
00:15:28,760 –> 00:15:29,760
channel.

312
00:15:29,760 –> 00:15:32,640
It’s so interesting to me though, cause like I also definitely saw the matter of order.

313
00:15:32,640 –> 00:15:39,200
I specifically, specifically remember seeing the scene in the crystal caverns and I’m like,

314
00:15:39,200 –> 00:15:40,200
oh, okay.

315
00:15:40,200 –> 00:15:42,400
So Zuko and Katara are going to get together.

316
00:15:42,400 –> 00:15:43,400
This makes sense to me.

317
00:15:43,400 –> 00:15:44,400
This tracks, okay.

318
00:15:44,400 –> 00:15:48,240
And then I missed some episodes and then like that apparently had not played out and it

319
00:15:48,240 –> 00:15:52,360
was looking very clear that she was going like towards Aang and I was like, wait, what?

320
00:15:52,360 –> 00:15:53,360
I’m sorry.

321
00:15:53,360 –> 00:15:55,520
And I had to, I specifically set out.

322
00:15:55,520 –> 00:15:58,760
I’m like the next marathon, I’m going to be out here because I need this.

323
00:15:58,760 –> 00:16:01,040
Like I need to know what’s happening here.

324
00:16:01,040 –> 00:16:02,040
Because it’s not making sense.

325
00:16:02,040 –> 00:16:03,040
Yeah.

326
00:16:03,040 –> 00:16:04,160
Adding up this can’t be correct.

327
00:16:04,160 –> 00:16:05,160
It was correct.

328
00:16:05,160 –> 00:16:06,160
It was unfortunately.

329
00:16:06,160 –> 00:16:07,160
Hate that for us.

330
00:16:07,160 –> 00:16:08,160
I really hate that for us.

331
00:16:08,160 –> 00:16:13,720
I mean, I hate it and I don’t because if it had happened, then we wouldn’t have the breadth

332
00:16:13,720 –> 00:16:15,040
of fan fiction that we do have.

333
00:16:15,040 –> 00:16:16,040
That is so true.

334
00:16:16,040 –> 00:16:17,400
There’s, you know, silver linings.

335
00:16:17,400 –> 00:16:20,880
But yeah, I definitely like when I watched it the first time, I didn’t think so much

336
00:16:20,880 –> 00:16:21,880
about shipping.

337
00:16:21,880 –> 00:16:25,280
Like I think they made it pretty obvious that like they wanted Aang and Katara to get together.

338
00:16:25,280 –> 00:16:29,160
And at the time I was not like, I was just like, okay, whatever.

339
00:16:29,160 –> 00:16:30,760
Like I didn’t think too deeply about it.

340
00:16:30,760 –> 00:16:32,160
I was like, we’re in here, whatever.

341
00:16:32,160 –> 00:16:33,520
But then I watched it.

342
00:16:33,520 –> 00:16:34,520
I don’t know.

343
00:16:34,520 –> 00:16:38,480
At some point it got on streaming and like maybe in the last like five or six years or

344
00:16:38,480 –> 00:16:39,480
so.

345
00:16:39,480 –> 00:16:42,680
And so I was like, oh, like, okay, I’m going to watch, finally watch it from beginning

346
00:16:42,680 –> 00:16:43,680
to end.

347
00:16:43,680 –> 00:16:44,680
Because like, you know, I saw the finale.

348
00:16:44,680 –> 00:16:45,680
Everybody saw the finale.

349
00:16:45,680 –> 00:16:49,000
Like I didn’t, I was like, I know there are parts that I am missing or like it’s been

350
00:16:49,000 –> 00:16:50,360
a minute and I don’t remember.

351
00:16:50,360 –> 00:16:54,760
And from jump, I was just like, oh, Zuko and Katara definitely go together.

352
00:16:54,760 –> 00:16:59,160
And so I was just watching it and like knowing how it ends, but it was just like being able

353
00:16:59,160 –> 00:17:02,480
to watch it in order you kind of, you see the art.

354
00:17:02,480 –> 00:17:05,000
And I was just like, yo, this is mad obvious.

355
00:17:05,000 –> 00:17:08,000
Like, how did this happen?

356
00:17:08,000 –> 00:17:10,000
Like it’s not subtle at all.

357
00:17:10,000 –> 00:17:14,760
And so it’s, and I was like, you know, watching it as an adult, but still just being like,

358
00:17:14,760 –> 00:17:15,760
oh, that’s crazy.

359
00:17:15,760 –> 00:17:17,720
Cause I just didn’t pick up on it as a kid.

360
00:17:17,720 –> 00:17:19,040
I just wasn’t paying attention like that.

361
00:17:19,040 –> 00:17:20,040
Yeah.

362
00:17:20,040 –> 00:17:23,880
I mean, that’s also like why I haven’t seen Cora is I like aged out at the time.

363
00:17:23,880 –> 00:17:25,360
Like obviously now it’s like streaming.

364
00:17:25,360 –> 00:17:27,880
It’s different in terms of like, there’s like, you can watch what you want.

365
00:17:27,880 –> 00:17:32,080
Like at some point I will watch Cora, but like at the time that it came out, like I’m

366
00:17:32,080 –> 00:17:35,360
like moving into college, like my siblings are watching it.

367
00:17:35,360 –> 00:17:38,600
So I’m like peeking in and I’m seeing that they’re watching it, but I’m not like paying

368
00:17:38,600 –> 00:17:39,600
attention.

369
00:17:39,600 –> 00:17:40,600
And so yeah, there’s that too.

370
00:17:40,600 –> 00:17:41,600
Like I ended up missing that.

371
00:17:41,600 –> 00:17:42,600
Yeah.

372
00:17:42,600 –> 00:17:43,920
I hadn’t thought about it because I could never was really sure why I didn’t.

373
00:17:43,920 –> 00:17:44,920
I watched Cora.

374
00:17:44,920 –> 00:17:45,920
I just knew that it didn’t, but you’re right.

375
00:17:45,920 –> 00:17:46,920
It was right at that.

376
00:17:46,920 –> 00:17:48,360
Like, again, it was different back then.

377
00:17:48,360 –> 00:17:49,360
You just aged out of things.

378
00:17:49,360 –> 00:17:52,440
Like there are people who would still go back to Nickelodeon, but once you age it out, like

379
00:17:52,440 –> 00:17:54,760
I’m not sitting through Nickelodeon programming or Disney channel.

380
00:17:54,760 –> 00:17:56,360
I was like, I’m not watching Nickelodeon.

381
00:17:56,360 –> 00:17:57,360
I’m not watching Disney channel.

382
00:17:57,360 –> 00:17:59,360
You’re not going to catch me watching Wizards of Wicked.

383
00:17:59,360 –> 00:18:01,640
Even if I wanted to watch that specific show.

384
00:18:01,640 –> 00:18:02,640
Right.

385
00:18:02,640 –> 00:18:06,200
And I’m like my, you know, I had younger siblings, so they were watching it.

386
00:18:06,200 –> 00:18:10,120
So it’s not like I wasn’t aware of it and the fact that it existed.

387
00:18:10,120 –> 00:18:13,800
But if they’re sitting down watching it, I’m not like, Ooh, like scoot over.

388
00:18:13,800 –> 00:18:18,360
I’m like, okay, I’m going to go read or I’m going to go do whatever it was I was doing.

389
00:18:18,360 –> 00:18:22,080
I think it’s really interesting that this was like an experience that you and your siblings

390
00:18:22,080 –> 00:18:25,840
share, not just with Avatar, but in general being into this type of media.

391
00:18:25,840 –> 00:18:27,600
And I just find it so fascinating.

392
00:18:27,600 –> 00:18:32,120
That’s why I made a podcast about why, like what is it?

393
00:18:32,120 –> 00:18:33,600
I really can’t figure it out.

394
00:18:33,600 –> 00:18:37,880
Why do these stories that are not written with us in mind or I mean, well, in the boondocks

395
00:18:37,880 –> 00:18:39,440
yesterday, we were in mind.

396
00:18:39,440 –> 00:18:45,200
But in general, like Asian pop culture and I guess in the case of Avatar, Asian inspired

397
00:18:45,200 –> 00:18:49,440
pop culture really, because that was too white man.

398
00:18:49,440 –> 00:18:50,960
Like why does it resonate?

399
00:18:50,960 –> 00:18:52,280
What is it about these stories?

400
00:18:52,280 –> 00:18:56,200
Like that resonates with us so much or intrigues us so much.

401
00:18:56,200 –> 00:19:00,120
And I’ve talked to quite a few people thus far in preparation for this podcast, because

402
00:19:00,120 –> 00:19:03,960
spoiler recording before this comes out, but I don’t have an answer.

403
00:19:03,960 –> 00:19:06,840
So like, what do you think it was is for you personally?

404
00:19:06,840 –> 00:19:09,880
And if you want to speak to your siblings as well and like how it was in your household.

405
00:19:09,880 –> 00:19:10,880
Yeah, I don’t know.

406
00:19:10,880 –> 00:19:17,920
I feel like part of it was on a broader level, like we’re all like into fantasy and like

407
00:19:17,920 –> 00:19:21,880
sci fi and that kind of thing and like action stuff like our dad was into it.

408
00:19:21,880 –> 00:19:24,240
So he got us into like those genres.

409
00:19:24,240 –> 00:19:28,520
And so, you know, to Nami’s coming on, I’m not like, like, I’m gonna see what’s going

410
00:19:28,520 –> 00:19:29,920
on, you know, I’m gonna check it out.

411
00:19:29,920 –> 00:19:30,920
I’m like interested.

412
00:19:30,920 –> 00:19:35,200
And so I think on the surface, it’s just like, you know, there’s fighting.

413
00:19:35,200 –> 00:19:36,200
That’s cool.

414
00:19:36,200 –> 00:19:37,200
I’m gonna watch it.

415
00:19:37,200 –> 00:19:42,560
But also, I think like, as you get in, it’s like these, you know, talking about Naruto

416
00:19:42,560 –> 00:19:47,440
specifically like these bonds and like communities and like all this stuff.

417
00:19:47,440 –> 00:19:52,360
Like my, when I was in high school, my brother and I, it mostly ended up being me, but like

418
00:19:52,360 –> 00:19:56,960
we wrote this like very obviously Naruto inspired like story.

419
00:19:56,960 –> 00:19:59,840
I don’t think we finished it, but there was black people and they were ninjas and they

420
00:19:59,840 –> 00:20:01,160
were like doing, you know what I mean?

421
00:20:01,160 –> 00:20:04,560
Like it just, I don’t know, something about it was just fun.

422
00:20:04,560 –> 00:20:06,520
And the stories are so well plot out.

423
00:20:06,520 –> 00:20:07,520
Also like they’re long.

424
00:20:07,520 –> 00:20:10,960
I mean, obviously not all anime is long, but Naruto is long as hell.

425
00:20:10,960 –> 00:20:15,120
And so it’s one of those things where like other books are reading other shows, like

426
00:20:15,120 –> 00:20:16,880
eventually they’re done.

427
00:20:16,880 –> 00:20:21,040
But I read Naruto from when I was like, I said like nine or 10.

428
00:20:21,040 –> 00:20:23,800
The final chapter didn’t come out until my senior year of college.

429
00:20:23,800 –> 00:20:28,400
And I literally read it not to, you know, out myself, but like in class.

430
00:20:28,400 –> 00:20:31,960
I was just like, I was feeling a lot of feelings.

431
00:20:31,960 –> 00:20:33,360
I was like, I have to read it now.

432
00:20:33,360 –> 00:20:34,360
It just dropped.

433
00:20:34,360 –> 00:20:35,360
I was like, I’m gonna read it now.

434
00:20:35,360 –> 00:20:40,920
So like that’s a long time to like be into a thing and to like, you know, like connect

435
00:20:40,920 –> 00:20:43,080
with those characters and you know, all of that.

436
00:20:43,080 –> 00:20:48,440
So I think it’s that too, is just giving folks time to be in that world and to like

437
00:20:48,440 –> 00:20:49,760
be into it.

438
00:20:49,760 –> 00:20:53,480
I don’t know if I could say like specifically, I just think like with me and my brother,

439
00:20:53,480 –> 00:20:54,480
we just were into the same things.

440
00:20:54,480 –> 00:20:57,720
And then my sister was like, you know, a few years younger than him.

441
00:20:57,720 –> 00:21:00,160
And so she would just kind of follow us.

442
00:21:00,160 –> 00:21:03,080
She was like, oh, you guys talking about this?

443
00:21:03,080 –> 00:21:04,920
I want to know.

444
00:21:04,920 –> 00:21:05,920
I want to be in this conversation.

445
00:21:05,920 –> 00:21:07,920
And we’re like, did you even read it?

446
00:21:07,920 –> 00:21:08,920
And she’s like, yes.

447
00:21:08,920 –> 00:21:10,960
And we’re like, you’re five.

448
00:21:10,960 –> 00:21:11,960
You didn’t.

449
00:21:11,960 –> 00:21:14,600
Like go away.

450
00:21:14,600 –> 00:21:18,540
So it’s just like, I also wonder if it’s something because you had said earlier how you love

451
00:21:18,540 –> 00:21:24,480
the themes like anime in general, but I wonder if I think there’s something to be said, you

452
00:21:24,480 –> 00:21:28,000
know, now we’re also with the Hallyu, which is, you know, the Korean wave, we’re seeing

453
00:21:28,000 –> 00:21:32,540
a lot more Korean media take over here and in general seeing more representation across

454
00:21:32,540 –> 00:21:37,720
the board, not just of Asian stories in America, but you know, in general, I do wonder if because

455
00:21:37,720 –> 00:21:43,000
of the cultural differences, like in other countries, they’re able to cover themes and

456
00:21:43,000 –> 00:21:48,520
stories that American media, big American media, like the big wigs just don’t want to

457
00:21:48,520 –> 00:21:50,560
even explore because it’s not going to make money.

458
00:21:50,560 –> 00:21:54,640
And so we go look elsewhere to find our people and see ourselves.

459
00:21:54,640 –> 00:21:55,640
Absolutely.

460
00:21:55,640 –> 00:22:01,120
They make the same thing every they are like on a 20 year cycle and just like, you’re making

461
00:22:01,120 –> 00:22:07,200
the same shit, the same like, reboot of this and like the same buddy top formula and whatever

462
00:22:07,200 –> 00:22:11,720
and like those things work sure, but like, it’s not exciting at a certain point.

463
00:22:11,720 –> 00:22:13,200
Like it’s we all know what it’s going to be.

464
00:22:13,200 –> 00:22:18,560
We’ve seen it 1000 times like, cool, but getting to like, I guess experience and like look

465
00:22:18,560 –> 00:22:24,560
at other forms of like, also just like story structure and like the themes, yes, but also

466
00:22:24,560 –> 00:22:29,540
like, you know, they’re created in different ways and just like different perspectives

467
00:22:29,540 –> 00:22:35,120
and to be able to get into that at a younger age is like tight because then you see then

468
00:22:35,120 –> 00:22:39,440
you’re like, cool, what else can I do or like it just changes your perspective a bit.

469
00:22:39,440 –> 00:22:44,880
Yeah, sometimes you do just have to look elsewhere because they’re not doing they’re not doing

470
00:22:44,880 –> 00:22:47,260
what needs to be done all the time.

471
00:22:47,260 –> 00:22:48,260
Sometimes they are.

472
00:22:48,260 –> 00:22:52,560
But yeah, they get they get in there sometimes with other times.

473
00:22:52,560 –> 00:22:55,560
Every now and then, bro, I’ve seen this before.

474
00:22:55,560 –> 00:22:57,920
Yeah, the formulas weren’t enough.

475
00:22:57,920 –> 00:22:59,840
Now it’s just reboot culture all the time.

476
00:22:59,840 –> 00:23:01,200
We’re just going to reboot things.

477
00:23:01,200 –> 00:23:02,640
The cycle is going to get smaller and smaller.

478
00:23:02,640 –> 00:23:05,960
You’re going to have to always specify which version of the movie is your favorite because

479
00:23:05,960 –> 00:23:10,700
there will be three of each and it’s going to be too much.

480
00:23:10,700 –> 00:23:14,880
You got me thinking about because you were talking about how we get to learn from these

481
00:23:14,880 –> 00:23:21,200
like more complex themes at a younger age through some of this Asian media and pop culture,

482
00:23:21,200 –> 00:23:26,240
speaking of anime specifically, but I think of all the like young black boys specifically,

483
00:23:26,240 –> 00:23:29,220
stay with me, who are into anime.

484
00:23:29,220 –> 00:23:33,000
And it’s not something I thought about because I wasn’t raised or socialized as a black

485
00:23:33,000 –> 00:23:34,000
boy.

486
00:23:34,000 –> 00:23:35,000
So I don’t know what that’s like.

487
00:23:35,000 –> 00:23:40,400
But I think of how we talk about in our culture of that black men specifically need better

488
00:23:40,400 –> 00:23:41,780
outlets for their emotions.

489
00:23:41,780 –> 00:23:46,040
We’re not giving that to them a lot because of like the societal structures and gender

490
00:23:46,040 –> 00:23:49,240
norms we put on to people, all of us.

491
00:23:49,240 –> 00:23:51,200
And I hadn’t thought about it.

492
00:23:51,200 –> 00:23:57,600
But getting into anime, like anime plays with the idea of masculinity so much.

493
00:23:57,600 –> 00:24:02,760
Like yes, there’s very masculine characters, but they’re experiencing bonds and emotions

494
00:24:02,760 –> 00:24:06,560
and like deep friendships and learning to care for people.

495
00:24:06,560 –> 00:24:12,560
And I mean, it might be through fighting, but it’s still right.

496
00:24:12,560 –> 00:24:16,240
With each punch, I love you more.

497
00:24:16,240 –> 00:24:20,360
You might lose an arm, but your blood’s going to hold hands about it.

498
00:24:20,360 –> 00:24:27,040
So like, it’s not, you know, it’s a bit violent sometimes, but still it’s like delving into

499
00:24:27,040 –> 00:24:30,600
that emotionality that I think is super invaluable.

500
00:24:30,600 –> 00:24:34,880
And I would like to talk to someone and impact that more now that I’m thinking about it.

501
00:24:34,880 –> 00:24:37,600
So yeah, you know, listeners, if you if you know someone.

502
00:24:37,600 –> 00:24:42,840
Yeah, I mean, like I said, like I was not, I grew up in a community where like, I have

503
00:24:42,840 –> 00:24:47,700
a lot of friends that I’ve known since I was born, essentially, of that group of people,

504
00:24:47,700 –> 00:24:52,260
the people who I watched this and talked about this stuff with were all black boys.

505
00:24:52,260 –> 00:24:56,120
Like it wasn’t like none of my other friends were like, oh, you’re watching Naruto, what’s

506
00:24:56,120 –> 00:24:57,120
up?

507
00:24:57,120 –> 00:24:58,120
I was like, they were just like, oh, cool.

508
00:24:58,120 –> 00:24:59,120
I love that for you.

509
00:24:59,120 –> 00:25:08,080
Yeah, it really speaks to me to a need to me that like, we’re not verbally expressing,

510
00:25:08,080 –> 00:25:10,720
but maybe that’s also why we keep coming to this media.

511
00:25:10,720 –> 00:25:14,520
There’s a need not being met, maybe even developmentally, because we’re coming to this stuff young

512
00:25:14,520 –> 00:25:20,120
and we’re finding it elsewhere in cultures that aren’t afraid to talk about at least

513
00:25:20,120 –> 00:25:21,120
these things.

514
00:25:21,120 –> 00:25:22,120
No culture is perfect.

515
00:25:22,120 –> 00:25:26,040
I sure because, you know, homophobia be rampant in other places.

516
00:25:26,040 –> 00:25:27,720
So like, don’t get me wrong.

517
00:25:27,720 –> 00:25:28,720
It’s not perfect over there.

518
00:25:28,720 –> 00:25:34,920
But that’s so speaking of learning new themes at a younger age, I am curious if y’all didn’t

519
00:25:34,920 –> 00:25:39,080
know, I said it up top, but let me reiterate that by on it is a writer that is that is

520
00:25:39,080 –> 00:25:40,080
true.

521
00:25:40,080 –> 00:25:41,080
That is so true.

522
00:25:41,080 –> 00:25:42,080
Very, very true.

523
00:25:42,080 –> 00:25:45,040
Can’t wait to read her books on shelves one day.

524
00:25:45,040 –> 00:25:50,240
Until then, I’m curious how these fandoms have inspired your real life works, which

525
00:25:50,240 –> 00:25:51,240
you kind of touched on it.

526
00:25:51,240 –> 00:25:55,880
You did write some stuff with your brother, but in your more recent works that I’m privy

527
00:25:55,880 –> 00:25:58,360
to know about, but others are not.

528
00:25:58,360 –> 00:26:00,720
Yeah, I first of all love siblings.

529
00:26:00,720 –> 00:26:02,840
I have five of them.

530
00:26:02,840 –> 00:26:07,240
And so grew up with just two and like the three of us are around the same age now.

531
00:26:07,240 –> 00:26:09,040
We’re very close and all of that.

532
00:26:09,040 –> 00:26:11,720
But we also have all the things that come with being siblings.

533
00:26:11,720 –> 00:26:13,640
So some of that stuff is they’re annoying.

534
00:26:13,640 –> 00:26:15,960
They need to stay out my closet, you know?

535
00:26:15,960 –> 00:26:20,600
So that being said, Sasuke on his own, I feel like everybody needs to relax.

536
00:26:20,600 –> 00:26:21,600
He’s not that cool.

537
00:26:21,600 –> 00:26:22,600
They need like, chill.

538
00:26:22,600 –> 00:26:23,600
Sasuke and Itachi.

539
00:26:23,600 –> 00:26:26,600
You have the floor, go ahead.

540
00:26:26,600 –> 00:26:27,600
My heart.

541
00:26:27,600 –> 00:26:29,600
What is it that Michael Scott said in the office?

542
00:26:29,600 –> 00:26:31,480
Like my heart goes with the Eagles nest.

543
00:26:31,480 –> 00:26:35,560
Like that’s how I feel.

544
00:26:35,560 –> 00:26:41,920
Like I have like so many feelings about these two brothers and sometimes it will just appear

545
00:26:41,920 –> 00:26:42,920
in my brain.

546
00:26:42,920 –> 00:26:43,920
I’ll be minding my business.

547
00:26:43,920 –> 00:26:45,520
And then I’m like, wow, but they are Chihap brothers.

548
00:26:45,520 –> 00:26:47,220
And like, they went through so much.

549
00:26:47,220 –> 00:26:53,080
So like their like relationship really like has inspired me for what’s funny is that I

550
00:26:53,080 –> 00:26:56,060
had an idea and I was like, oh, I’m going to like throw that in there.

551
00:26:56,060 –> 00:27:00,440
And then I have a different idea and I was like, oh, maybe I’ll just pull.

552
00:27:00,440 –> 00:27:01,440
Who knows?

553
00:27:01,440 –> 00:27:02,440
Maybe I’ll do it twice.

554
00:27:02,440 –> 00:27:04,840
Who can, who’s going to stop me?

555
00:27:04,840 –> 00:27:05,840
Not I.

556
00:27:05,840 –> 00:27:06,840
Right.

557
00:27:06,840 –> 00:27:12,760
So I think like that just that relationship in general and just like the ways that like

558
00:27:12,760 –> 00:27:18,560
relationships can be different things to different people and also like can be manipulated into

559
00:27:18,560 –> 00:27:20,720
one thing and then you find out it’s in everything.

560
00:27:20,720 –> 00:27:22,080
Like it’s just so many different things.

561
00:27:22,080 –> 00:27:26,120
There’s so many different like themes and feelings within that.

562
00:27:26,120 –> 00:27:32,120
So I would say them primarily definitely inspires me because I like pain and.

563
00:27:32,120 –> 00:27:34,000
The character or in general?

564
00:27:34,000 –> 00:27:35,000
Both.

565
00:27:35,000 –> 00:27:39,440
I feel like that’s the one that like is in my head the most like recently.

566
00:27:39,440 –> 00:27:42,200
I’m sure there are going to be other things that pop up.

567
00:27:42,200 –> 00:27:45,960
Like there’s no way it’s not, but that’s definitely been on my mind most recently.

568
00:27:45,960 –> 00:27:46,960
So look out for that.

569
00:27:46,960 –> 00:27:47,960
Most recently slash always.

570
00:27:47,960 –> 00:27:50,960
Love slash hate that for me.

571
00:27:50,960 –> 00:27:51,960
Great.

572
00:27:51,960 –> 00:27:53,760
I love angst also.

573
00:27:53,760 –> 00:27:55,360
Both Diana and I love angst.

574
00:27:55,360 –> 00:27:58,360
I don’t like it when she perpetrates it unto me though.

575
00:27:58,360 –> 00:27:59,360
That’s.

576
00:27:59,360 –> 00:28:04,640
Honestly, the best thing about writing is when you are writing something that’s like

577
00:28:04,640 –> 00:28:09,160
very heart wrenching and you’re just like, ooh, about to get them with this one.

578
00:28:09,160 –> 00:28:10,160
Like honestly.

579
00:28:10,160 –> 00:28:17,280
Like I know that some people like really feel like not that I don’t feel deeply, but you

580
00:28:17,280 –> 00:28:21,360
know, like they feel deeply and they like cry when they write certain passages and they’re

581
00:28:21,360 –> 00:28:24,880
like, I just feel so bad for doing this to my readers.

582
00:28:24,880 –> 00:28:26,640
And I’m literally over here.

583
00:28:26,640 –> 00:28:28,440
You know, the like purple devil emoji.

584
00:28:28,440 –> 00:28:30,080
Like that’s me when I write those things.

585
00:28:30,080 –> 00:28:31,520
So you can yell at me.

586
00:28:31,520 –> 00:28:32,520
It’s fine.

587
00:28:32,520 –> 00:28:33,520
I will just continue to laugh.

588
00:28:33,520 –> 00:28:38,400
Do you think when they were writing Naruto, they cried about it or they were like, lol,

589
00:28:38,400 –> 00:28:39,680
that sucks for them.

590
00:28:39,680 –> 00:28:42,880
They were like, got them.

591
00:28:42,880 –> 00:28:44,920
Yeah.

592
00:28:44,920 –> 00:28:45,920
And they did.

593
00:28:45,920 –> 00:28:46,920
They really, really did.

594
00:28:46,920 –> 00:28:47,920
Truly.

595
00:28:47,920 –> 00:28:51,280
I think it’s really interesting this, you know, cause I think it’s a lot of our generation,

596
00:28:51,280 –> 00:28:54,480
us being millennials who came up, like we’re the first ones who came up watching anime

597
00:28:54,480 –> 00:28:57,560
cause like Toonami was there, like we’re that generation.

598
00:28:57,560 –> 00:29:03,320
I think it’s really interesting seeing people become producers, directors, novelists, creators

599
00:29:03,320 –> 00:29:08,880
in their own right, like successful as adults in seeing how these themes are starting to

600
00:29:08,880 –> 00:29:12,240
like weave their way in into their stories.

601
00:29:12,240 –> 00:29:15,720
And I don’t know, like maybe a general audience wouldn’t be able to tell, but you can tell

602
00:29:15,720 –> 00:29:18,120
when you’re reading a book, like this person likes anime.

603
00:29:18,120 –> 00:29:19,120
I peeped it.

604
00:29:19,120 –> 00:29:20,120
I see it.

605
00:29:20,120 –> 00:29:21,120
Yeah.

606
00:29:21,120 –> 00:29:25,080
I mean, I know that like Tracy Dion has talked about that author of Legend of Horon.

607
00:29:25,080 –> 00:29:29,280
I haven’t seen the last Creed, but I know Michael B. Jordan has like talked about his

608
00:29:29,280 –> 00:29:35,920
like anime like inspirations and stuff and like, yeah, shoot, Megan Thee Stallion, like

609
00:29:35,920 –> 00:29:40,680
all of her anime photo shoots and like references in her raps.

610
00:29:40,680 –> 00:29:41,680
Like I love it.

611
00:29:41,680 –> 00:29:42,680
It’s a great time.

612
00:29:42,680 –> 00:29:43,680
Yeah.

613
00:29:43,680 –> 00:29:47,680
It’s such a great time to be a black kid nerd, blurred, whatever you want to call it, whatever

614
00:29:47,680 –> 00:29:48,680
you call yourself.

615
00:29:48,680 –> 00:29:49,680
It’s a great time.

616
00:29:49,680 –> 00:29:50,680
We’re having a great time out here.

617
00:29:50,680 –> 00:29:54,780
As a writer, I thought it’d be fun to ask you if you could be brought on to co-write

618
00:29:54,780 –> 00:29:57,120
an anime, what kind of story would you tell?

619
00:29:57,120 –> 00:30:00,800
I said co-wrote because we do respect, you know, people from the culture.

620
00:30:00,800 –> 00:30:02,680
So it would have to be a co-writing situation.

621
00:30:02,680 –> 00:30:03,680
Very much so.

622
00:30:03,680 –> 00:30:06,840
I would want like to have more like black characters.

623
00:30:06,840 –> 00:30:10,200
I’ve watched, I don’t think I’m caught, I’m definitely not caught up with Burrito, but

624
00:30:10,200 –> 00:30:13,160
I am semi watching it.

625
00:30:13,160 –> 00:30:18,280
Chocho is the best and I just like love her and you know, want all good things for her.

626
00:30:18,280 –> 00:30:19,920
So like that’d be nice.

627
00:30:19,920 –> 00:30:23,360
But also, I don’t know, something like with magic and like fancy.

628
00:30:23,360 –> 00:30:24,480
I definitely like.

629
00:30:24,480 –> 00:30:28,560
I like shonen, so I would want it to, you know, I want the pain and like the.

630
00:30:28,560 –> 00:30:29,560
I was gonna ask.

631
00:30:29,560 –> 00:30:31,560
It definitely should hurt.

632
00:30:31,560 –> 00:30:32,560
Yeah.

633
00:30:32,560 –> 00:30:33,560
Swords, dragons, I don’t know.

634
00:30:33,560 –> 00:30:34,560
It’d be great.

635
00:30:34,560 –> 00:30:35,560
Ooh, dragons.

636
00:30:35,560 –> 00:30:36,560
Dragons would be tight.

637
00:30:36,560 –> 00:30:37,560
Yes, dragons please.

638
00:30:37,560 –> 00:30:39,560
Black girl dragon riders in an anime.

639
00:30:39,560 –> 00:30:40,560
Yep.

640
00:30:40,560 –> 00:30:41,560
Sign me up.

641
00:30:41,560 –> 00:30:49,160
I really doubt there are anime creators listening, but if there are, I welcome you to contact

642
00:30:49,160 –> 00:30:50,160
Sayada.

643
00:30:50,160 –> 00:30:52,160
She got a website, she got contact information.

644
00:30:52,160 –> 00:30:53,160
I do, I do.

645
00:30:53,160 –> 00:30:54,320
I’d watch the heck out of that.

646
00:30:54,320 –> 00:30:55,320
I agree.

647
00:30:55,320 –> 00:30:59,920
I wish I could see more black people in anime, also just in Asian pop culture in general.

648
00:30:59,920 –> 00:31:03,720
I think there is a line like I’m not saying, you know, there is cultural imperialism.

649
00:31:03,720 –> 00:31:07,000
So like I want it to be true to the cultures that are creating the works.

650
00:31:07,000 –> 00:31:09,080
However, black people live in those countries too.

651
00:31:09,080 –> 00:31:10,080
Like let’s not pretend.

652
00:31:10,080 –> 00:31:11,080
Let’s not pretend.

653
00:31:11,080 –> 00:31:12,080
Yeah.

654
00:31:12,080 –> 00:31:13,080
We’re everywhere.

655
00:31:13,080 –> 00:31:14,760
So I would like to see it very much so.

656
00:31:14,760 –> 00:31:16,520
It’s something I’ve long desired.

657
00:31:16,520 –> 00:31:20,640
I recently recorded with Mary Clay of That’s What I’m Talking About and I talked a lot

658
00:31:20,640 –> 00:31:21,640
about Galadriel.

659
00:31:21,640 –> 00:31:24,560
I know that the Galadriel quotes are top of mind.

660
00:31:24,560 –> 00:31:27,360
So I apologize.

661
00:31:27,360 –> 00:31:30,600
That’s not the brand right now, but I can’t help it.

662
00:31:30,600 –> 00:31:32,440
I’m a Galadriel stan.

663
00:31:32,440 –> 00:31:35,920
We did talk about what maybe would you have been into in the past.

664
00:31:35,920 –> 00:31:41,080
And I know you don’t have like a lot of time, but if you did have time, what Asian pop culture

665
00:31:41,080 –> 00:31:44,640
or fandom spaces are you intrigued by right now?

666
00:31:44,640 –> 00:31:47,240
Well I would catch up on that list, but you said me.

667
00:31:47,240 –> 00:31:48,240
First and foremost.

668
00:31:48,240 –> 00:31:49,240
Good answer.

669
00:31:49,240 –> 00:31:54,440
I do want to watch like Hunter x Hunter or like My Hero Academia.

670
00:31:54,440 –> 00:31:57,440
They’re like the two I feel like I hear about all the- I think my brother watches them,

671
00:31:57,440 –> 00:31:59,520
which is probably why I hear about them most.

672
00:31:59,520 –> 00:32:04,400
Like I feel like if I can get the time, like one of those would probably be the ones that

673
00:32:04,400 –> 00:32:05,400
I start with, my sister.

674
00:32:05,400 –> 00:32:07,760
But yeah, I mean I’m open to recommendations.

675
00:32:07,760 –> 00:32:12,040
Like I’m not, you know, you can send them to me with the grain of salt that like it might

676
00:32:12,040 –> 00:32:18,360
take me five to seven business years to start the first one, but I got you.

677
00:32:18,360 –> 00:32:19,360
Yeah, that’s fair.

678
00:32:19,360 –> 00:32:21,680
I also saw like Spy Family looks cool.

679
00:32:21,680 –> 00:32:24,080
Like there’s just like I’ve been seeing them in my periphery.

680
00:32:24,080 –> 00:32:25,200
I think that one’s pretty short.

681
00:32:25,200 –> 00:32:29,360
I also have to be clear, even though I host this podcast, I have a watch list of both

682
00:32:29,360 –> 00:32:32,440
of movies, animes, K dramas.

683
00:32:32,440 –> 00:32:35,080
I now have J dramas that have been recommended to me.

684
00:32:35,080 –> 00:32:36,080
Like the list is long.

685
00:32:36,080 –> 00:32:37,080
It just keeps growing.

686
00:32:37,080 –> 00:32:38,080
So like I very much relate.

687
00:32:38,080 –> 00:32:39,080
It only grows.

688
00:32:39,080 –> 00:32:40,080
Yeah.

689
00:32:40,080 –> 00:32:41,080
It never shrinks.

690
00:32:41,080 –> 00:32:43,680
Not because you don’t watch things off of them, but there’s more to consume than there

691
00:32:43,680 –> 00:32:45,400
is that is consumed.

692
00:32:45,400 –> 00:32:46,400
That is the-

693
00:32:46,400 –> 00:32:51,280
I mean, looking at my to read list, my TBR, I just be like, bro, can y’all just pause

694
00:32:51,280 –> 00:32:52,360
on releasing books?

695
00:32:52,360 –> 00:32:53,880
Like don’t, don’t do that.

696
00:32:53,880 –> 00:32:56,200
But sometimes, can I pause?

697
00:32:56,200 –> 00:32:57,200
Yeah.

698
00:32:57,200 –> 00:33:00,600
There’s still books also that I’m really intrigued by.

699
00:33:00,600 –> 00:33:02,280
Like what is their name?

700
00:33:02,280 –> 00:33:03,280
The author.

701
00:33:03,280 –> 00:33:04,560
They got really big on YouTube.

702
00:33:04,560 –> 00:33:06,520
Also, I think they’re on TikTok.

703
00:33:06,520 –> 00:33:07,520
Zuren?

704
00:33:07,520 –> 00:33:08,520
Oh, yeah.

705
00:33:08,520 –> 00:33:09,520
Iron Widow.

706
00:33:09,520 –> 00:33:10,520
Yes.

707
00:33:10,520 –> 00:33:11,520
Iron Widow.

708
00:33:11,520 –> 00:33:12,520
That’s really good.

709
00:33:12,520 –> 00:33:19,640
When it was an out yet, I was like, oh, I’m going to read the heck out of this book.

710
00:33:19,640 –> 00:33:20,640
The sequel is out.

711
00:33:20,640 –> 00:33:21,640
I’m pretty sure.

712
00:33:21,640 –> 00:33:22,640
And I still have not read it.

713
00:33:22,640 –> 00:33:23,640
Well, no, it’s not out yet.

714
00:33:23,640 –> 00:33:24,640
Sequel doesn’t come out till-

715
00:33:24,640 –> 00:33:25,640
Okay.

716
00:33:25,640 –> 00:33:26,640
Oh, wait, it got it.

717
00:33:26,640 –> 00:33:27,640
It got pushed back.

718
00:33:27,640 –> 00:33:28,640
That’s right.

719
00:33:28,640 –> 00:33:29,640
That’s right.

720
00:33:29,640 –> 00:33:30,640
But it’s still on my TBR.

721
00:33:30,640 –> 00:33:31,880
So I will be reading stuff.

722
00:33:31,880 –> 00:33:33,960
I will maybe even review them for this podcast.

723
00:33:33,960 –> 00:33:34,960
Who’s to say?

724
00:33:34,960 –> 00:33:35,960
But like-

725
00:33:35,960 –> 00:33:36,960
Shoot, now I’m thinking about it.

726
00:33:36,960 –> 00:33:37,960
I’m like, I got Rex.

727
00:33:37,960 –> 00:33:41,240
You said that and I’m like, oh yeah, like book books.

728
00:33:41,240 –> 00:33:42,920
Brian is also a prolific reader.

729
00:33:42,920 –> 00:33:45,800
She won’t own to it because in our friend group, we’ve got lots of readers.

730
00:33:45,800 –> 00:33:47,800
Yeah, I was going to say, I am average.

731
00:33:47,800 –> 00:33:49,480
Well, I mean, what am I like?

732
00:33:49,480 –> 00:33:51,560
I’m like high, but like not quite.

733
00:33:51,560 –> 00:33:54,520
You’re the upper end of average, but in our friend group, you’re very mid.

734
00:33:54,520 –> 00:33:57,840
Yeah, I’m like not doing, I’m actually not even doing that much.

735
00:33:57,840 –> 00:34:00,640
I got to tell people in my family, they’d be like, but you read a thousand books.

736
00:34:00,640 –> 00:34:01,640
I’m like, relax.

737
00:34:01,640 –> 00:34:05,840
I know people who actually read a thousand books.

738
00:34:05,840 –> 00:34:06,840
So.

739
00:34:06,840 –> 00:34:09,920
Yeah, it’s really wild in our friend group, but she does read a lot.

740
00:34:09,920 –> 00:34:12,960
So do you have book Rex in this vein?

741
00:34:12,960 –> 00:34:14,640
So I would say Iron Widow.

742
00:34:14,640 –> 00:34:17,000
It’s super tight.

743
00:34:17,000 –> 00:34:20,960
The main character is like unhinged in like a really great way.

744
00:34:20,960 –> 00:34:21,960
My favorite.

745
00:34:21,960 –> 00:34:23,760
Daughter of the Moon Goddess.

746
00:34:23,760 –> 00:34:25,640
I’ve read, it’s a duology.

747
00:34:25,640 –> 00:34:29,520
I’ve read the first one and haven’t gotten to the second one yet, but soon.

748
00:34:29,520 –> 00:34:33,280
These Violent Delights are Violent Ends by Chloe Gong.

749
00:34:33,280 –> 00:34:34,280
That’s really good.

750
00:34:34,280 –> 00:34:36,520
I read the next Foul Lady Fortune.

751
00:34:36,520 –> 00:34:37,520
I read that.

752
00:34:37,520 –> 00:34:38,520
Oh, I haven’t read that yet.

753
00:34:38,520 –> 00:34:39,520
It was cool.

754
00:34:39,520 –> 00:34:40,520
I liked it.

755
00:34:40,520 –> 00:34:43,400
And I know she has a sequel to that coming out and like plenty of other books.

756
00:34:43,400 –> 00:34:44,740
We’ll put all these in the show notes.

757
00:34:44,740 –> 00:34:45,980
So don’t y’all fret.

758
00:34:45,980 –> 00:34:47,880
They will be there for you to peruse.

759
00:34:47,880 –> 00:34:48,880
Yeah.

760
00:34:48,880 –> 00:34:50,760
Oh, oh, oh, okay.

761
00:34:50,760 –> 00:34:51,800
Jade City.

762
00:34:51,800 –> 00:34:58,100
I am still like, I’m still back and forth on whether I’m going to sue our friend, Portia,

763
00:34:58,100 –> 00:35:00,100
for emotional distress.

764
00:35:00,100 –> 00:35:02,080
That trilogy, the Greenbone Saga.

765
00:35:02,080 –> 00:35:03,080
Oh my God.

766
00:35:03,080 –> 00:35:05,280
Oh, it’s like free.

767
00:35:05,280 –> 00:35:08,360
It’s amazing and devastating.

768
00:35:08,360 –> 00:35:15,520
And I literally, I read this, I read it last summer and I was at Disneyland with my family.

769
00:35:15,520 –> 00:35:20,440
And so we were, it was like before we were like in the hotel about to go and like I was

770
00:35:20,440 –> 00:35:21,440
on the last book.

771
00:35:21,440 –> 00:35:23,640
Like this thing happened.

772
00:35:23,640 –> 00:35:24,640
So crazy.

773
00:35:24,640 –> 00:35:26,960
Like I was like, oh my God, I don’t know what’s going on.

774
00:35:26,960 –> 00:35:28,400
And then I had to like go to Disneyland.

775
00:35:28,400 –> 00:35:32,600
Like I’m at Disneyland thinking about these characters and like crazy.

776
00:35:32,600 –> 00:35:36,960
Also has an unhinged main character who I love, but really like he needs help.

777
00:35:36,960 –> 00:35:37,960
Yes.

778
00:35:37,960 –> 00:35:42,000
And he’s like, take the weapons away from him.

779
00:35:42,000 –> 00:35:45,000
He does not need to be in charge, but he’s great.

780
00:35:45,000 –> 00:35:46,000
Okay.

781
00:35:46,000 –> 00:35:47,000
Yeah.

782
00:35:47,000 –> 00:35:48,000
But those, I feel like those are good.

783
00:35:48,000 –> 00:35:50,480
So the Jade City Greenbone Saga is adult.

784
00:35:50,480 –> 00:35:52,680
We said these violent delights, that’s YA.

785
00:35:52,680 –> 00:35:56,320
Oh, Daughter of the Moon Goddess is adult and then Ironwoodo is YA.

786
00:35:56,320 –> 00:35:57,320
Yeah.

787
00:35:57,320 –> 00:36:01,840
So if you’re a Black nerd like we are, but maybe you fell off of reading, maybe you’re

788
00:36:01,840 –> 00:36:07,320
just like, I want to dive deeper into these types of stories or these cultures.

789
00:36:07,320 –> 00:36:08,680
They’re so good.

790
00:36:08,680 –> 00:36:12,440
The representation, well, honestly, the representation in publishing is still abysmal, but it’s getting

791
00:36:12,440 –> 00:36:13,760
better all the time.

792
00:36:13,760 –> 00:36:16,240
And the stories that are out are so good.

793
00:36:16,240 –> 00:36:20,200
I say that as someone who’s a bad reader, but what I have read, so, so good.

794
00:36:20,200 –> 00:36:23,000
Please, please, please pick up some books.

795
00:36:23,000 –> 00:36:28,760
I guess my last question is what do you think can be gained through Black and Asian pop

796
00:36:28,760 –> 00:36:29,760
cultural exchange?

797
00:36:29,760 –> 00:36:36,040
Whether that be through coalition or the type of media we put out?

798
00:36:36,040 –> 00:36:37,040
No wrong answers.

799
00:36:37,040 –> 00:36:39,080
I mean, I think both.

800
00:36:39,080 –> 00:36:45,320
I think that we consume a lot of Asian media at this point or have grown up consuming it.

801
00:36:45,320 –> 00:36:52,360
I think that our culture is also worldwide and people are seeing it and, why did my brain

802
00:36:52,360 –> 00:36:53,360
go Mr. Worldwide?

803
00:36:53,360 –> 00:36:54,360
I know.

804
00:36:54,360 –> 00:36:58,000
I didn’t mean to say it like that, but yeah.

805
00:36:58,000 –> 00:37:03,640
And folks are consuming that, some are appropriating that, some are taking inspiration from that.

806
00:37:03,640 –> 00:37:07,600
And so I do think that there is something to be, like there’s already that exchange

807
00:37:07,600 –> 00:37:13,880
happening, but I do think that there is definitely something to be gained by those conversations

808
00:37:13,880 –> 00:37:17,400
and also a more intentional exchange.

809
00:37:17,400 –> 00:37:22,840
Be that through recommendations, culture building, activism.

810
00:37:22,840 –> 00:37:27,480
There are a lot of different ways that we could use that media to both strengthen our

811
00:37:27,480 –> 00:37:33,240
relationships across cultures, but then also strengthen our current standing in the world,

812
00:37:33,240 –> 00:37:35,320
I guess is the best way to say it.

813
00:37:35,320 –> 00:37:36,320
Broaden our worldview.

814
00:37:36,320 –> 00:37:39,760
Yeah, broaden our worldview, but then also just like, you know, solidarity.

815
00:37:39,760 –> 00:37:46,600
There’s just a lot of, in that exchange, there’s also a lot of anti-black sentiments,

816
00:37:46,600 –> 00:37:52,160
anti-Asian sentiments in places where it doesn’t really make sense to do that.

817
00:37:52,160 –> 00:37:57,480
So even as we’re learning these new things and expanding our worldviews away from the

818
00:37:57,480 –> 00:38:03,080
very narrow Eurocentric white supremacist worldview, we also then fall into some of

819
00:38:03,080 –> 00:38:04,600
those things at the same time.

820
00:38:04,600 –> 00:38:12,280
And so we sure do, you know, trying not to do that and having more honest and open conversations

821
00:38:12,280 –> 00:38:16,840
about that, I think, like doing that intentionally, I think would be really dope.

822
00:38:16,840 –> 00:38:20,560
That’s what we aim to do here, culture by culture.

823
00:38:20,560 –> 00:38:21,960
But I agree.

824
00:38:21,960 –> 00:38:22,960
That’s what I want most of all.

825
00:38:22,960 –> 00:38:29,200
I get always so almost personally hurt when I see, especially online, it happens a lot

826
00:38:29,200 –> 00:38:33,280
online, where on either side, like you see anti-black or anti-Asian sentiment, I’m like,

827
00:38:33,280 –> 00:38:36,840
but it doesn’t have to be this way because of my true belief is when we’re doing that,

828
00:38:36,840 –> 00:38:41,320
we’re just letting white supremacy win because that’s ultimately what’s at play, us propping

829
00:38:41,320 –> 00:38:42,320
up white supremacy.

830
00:38:42,320 –> 00:38:43,320
Why are we doing that?

831
00:38:43,320 –> 00:38:44,320
Right.

832
00:38:44,320 –> 00:38:45,320
Cut it out.

833
00:38:45,320 –> 00:38:48,280
And like at this point, obviously now there are like genuine hurts and like issues that

834
00:38:48,280 –> 00:38:53,680
need to be worked out, but we can do that without then resorting to the same old tactics.

835
00:38:53,680 –> 00:38:54,680
Because people do.

836
00:38:54,680 –> 00:38:56,320
So if you’re listening, cut it out.

837
00:38:56,320 –> 00:38:58,760
We have so much potential for a better world.

838
00:38:58,760 –> 00:39:00,280
It’s really so simple.

839
00:39:00,280 –> 00:39:03,040
It’s not, but the start is simple.

840
00:39:03,040 –> 00:39:04,620
The first step is actually pretty simple.

841
00:39:04,620 –> 00:39:05,620
Cut it out.

842
00:39:05,620 –> 00:39:06,620
Yeah.

843
00:39:06,620 –> 00:39:08,960
Then we can work out the rest.

844
00:39:08,960 –> 00:39:10,800
Well thanks for coming, Byana.

845
00:39:10,800 –> 00:39:13,440
Tell the good folks where they can find you.

846
00:39:13,440 –> 00:39:14,440
Yeah.

847
00:39:14,440 –> 00:39:23,400
So I am on Twitter and Instagram at yanawroteit and I host a podcast called Wizard Team, which

848
00:39:23,400 –> 00:39:28,120
is a black fantasy podcast where we highlight stories written by black authors.

849
00:39:28,120 –> 00:39:31,600
I write things, but like there’s nothing that you can find.

850
00:39:31,600 –> 00:39:32,600
So don’t worry about it.

851
00:39:32,600 –> 00:39:33,600
Yet.

852
00:39:33,600 –> 00:39:34,600
Don’t worry about it for now.

853
00:39:34,600 –> 00:39:35,600
Eventually there will be things.

854
00:39:35,600 –> 00:39:36,600
Great.

855
00:39:36,600 –> 00:39:40,160
Well, thank you all so much for listening.

856
00:39:40,160 –> 00:39:42,480
Let me know if y’all have any book recommendations.

857
00:39:42,480 –> 00:39:47,080
Again, it will be five to seven business years before I get to them.

858
00:39:47,080 –> 00:39:51,120
But share your book recs, your favorite Asian authors we would love to know.

859
00:39:51,120 –> 00:39:54,120
Or if you’ve read any of the books that Byana mentioned, what did you think of them?

860
00:39:54,120 –> 00:39:58,560
Would love to know, you can let us know at Culture X podcast on Twitter or Instagram.

861
00:39:58,560 –> 00:40:00,200
You can also find us on Patreon.

862
00:40:00,200 –> 00:40:01,200
Oh my goodness.

863
00:40:01,200 –> 00:40:02,200
We have a Patreon.

864
00:40:02,200 –> 00:40:03,200
Yeah, we do.

865
00:40:03,200 –> 00:40:05,440
Patreon.com slash Culture X podcast.

866
00:40:05,440 –> 00:40:07,040
There’s a lot of cute stuff over there.

867
00:40:07,040 –> 00:40:11,080
You can just see some of the behind the scenes, see what I’m thinking, where we going, who’s

868
00:40:11,080 –> 00:40:12,600
coming on the show.

869
00:40:12,600 –> 00:40:17,040
Or maybe if you pick a higher tier, you might be able to help me out and participate in

870
00:40:17,040 –> 00:40:18,840
the podcast a little bit.

871
00:40:18,840 –> 00:40:21,240
So hopefully we’ll see y’all over there.

872
00:40:21,240 –> 00:40:23,840
But until then, keep it chill and keep it nerdy.

873
00:40:23,840 –> 00:40:24,840
I’ll see you guys later.

874
00:40:24,840 –> 00:40:52,320
Let’s get some serious work done over here.

May 15 2023

[3] Black Girls and K-Dramas

[3] Black Girls and K-Dramas feat. Black Girl Seoul

Listen on...

Watch on YouTube

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In this episode of Culture by Culture, Delia speaks w/ hosts of Black Girl Seoul, Something Else and Song Rae. We talk navigating K-drama fandom as Black folk, what we hope to see from fandom & industry, NCT, and of course Asian dramas. What is your favorite drama?

Recs: Age Harassment (J-drama) Extraordinary Attorney Woo (K-drama), The Glory (K-drama), Search: WWW (K-drama), Meet Yourself (C-drama)

Find transcriptions for episodes here!

Also in the ep.:

Boys Over Flowers
J-dramas: Cool Doji Danshi
K-dramas: Backstreet Rookie (and controversy), Family: The Unbreakable Bond, Fated to Love You, Itaewon Class, Penthouse, So Not Worth It, Start-Up, Webdramas
K-pop: “On the Street (w. J Cole)” – J-Hope, NCT, New Jeans, “Slow (with Ciara)” – Jackson Wang, Yuta
K-pop industry doc.
Famous folk: Babyface, Backstreet Boys, Chris Lyons, Ciara, Han Hyun Min, J. Cole, NSYNC, Sam Kim
Video game: Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
Appropriation
Disney Plus
One Mic History (Korean Fried Chicken video)

Guest:

This ep. features Something Else and Song Rae of the pod & blog Black Girl Seoul! Find them here:

Site | Podcast | Instagram | Twitter

Find us online: Site | Patreon | Instagram | Twitter

Credits

Host, Exec. Prod., Editor, Engineer: Delia

Personal Twitter | Personal Instagram | Personal Site

About Culture by Culture

1
00:00:00,000 –> 00:00:04,680
Hey there, welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi-dimensional exploration of Black and

2
00:00:04,680 –> 00:00:06,360
Asian pop cultural ties.

3
00:00:06,360 –> 00:00:08,400
I’m your female lead, Delia.

4
00:00:08,400 –> 00:00:11,960
Today I’m joined by the host of Black Girl Soul, Song Rae, and Something Else.

5
00:00:11,960 –> 00:00:12,960
Hi, y’all.

6
00:00:12,960 –> 00:00:14,640
Hi, how are you doing?

7
00:00:14,640 –> 00:00:15,640
I’m doing great.

8
00:00:15,640 –> 00:00:17,760
I’m so excited to have y’all.

9
00:00:17,760 –> 00:00:18,760
Excited to be here.

10
00:00:18,760 –> 00:00:19,760
Excited to be here.

11
00:00:19,760 –> 00:00:20,760
Thank you so much.

12
00:00:20,760 –> 00:00:21,760
Yeah, absolutely.

13
00:00:21,760 –> 00:00:23,320
Would you like to introduce yourselves?

14
00:00:23,320 –> 00:00:26,000
You can tell us your names, what y’all are into.

15
00:00:26,000 –> 00:00:31,960
I am Something Else from Black Girl Soul, one half of the host group.

16
00:00:31,960 –> 00:00:35,720
I’m Song Rae, the other half of Black Girl Soul.

17
00:00:35,720 –> 00:00:42,440
Aside from that as well, we are a podcast that talks about dramas and we blog and podcast

18
00:00:42,440 –> 00:00:43,440
about them.

19
00:00:43,440 –> 00:00:49,880
The varying dramas in Korean, Thai, Japanese, Chinese, we watch them all.

20
00:00:49,880 –> 00:00:55,640
As well as I’ve become a new K-pop fan and so like my journey into K-pop has been quite

21
00:00:55,640 –> 00:00:56,640
interesting.

22
00:00:56,640 –> 00:00:57,640
Oh my gosh.

23
00:00:57,640 –> 00:01:00,320
That’s a whole story by itself.

24
00:01:00,320 –> 00:01:06,560
I like music, but when I say she has taken it to another level, I’m like, I’m watching

25
00:01:06,560 –> 00:01:12,040
and cheering her on, but it also tickles me because she wasn’t like this when she was

26
00:01:12,040 –> 00:01:13,040
a teenager.

27
00:01:13,040 –> 00:01:16,080
I remember her like, I remember her as a teenager.

28
00:01:16,080 –> 00:01:20,520
I mean, she liked groups, but I remember her geeking out.

29
00:01:20,520 –> 00:01:22,400
Look, K-pop will do it to you.

30
00:01:22,400 –> 00:01:23,960
It is, it’s deep.

31
00:01:23,960 –> 00:01:26,480
The river runs real deep.

32
00:01:26,480 –> 00:01:27,480
It does.

33
00:01:27,480 –> 00:01:30,600
Oh gosh.

34
00:01:30,600 –> 00:01:35,680
So I don’t know how many of my listeners have listened to your podcast, but if y’all go

35
00:01:35,680 –> 00:01:39,440
check out their socials, I feel like when I look at y’all socials, y’all are prolific.

36
00:01:39,440 –> 00:01:45,160
I do not know how y’all watch as much dramas as y’all do.

37
00:01:45,160 –> 00:01:47,680
My watch list is so long and I stay watching them.

38
00:01:47,680 –> 00:01:51,200
I stay consistent, but y’all will be turning them out.

39
00:01:51,200 –> 00:01:55,000
I love Song Rae because she doesn’t even watch American television anymore.

40
00:01:55,000 –> 00:01:57,800
I still watch like a couple of shows.

41
00:01:57,800 –> 00:02:02,560
I try to keep up, but I’m in a weird lull right now because I don’t know what’s going

42
00:02:02,560 –> 00:02:05,280
on with the season or the shows.

43
00:02:05,280 –> 00:02:13,800
I’m almost reaching back in time to like catch maybe episodes I never saw, but are a series

44
00:02:13,800 –> 00:02:15,000
that I never saw.

45
00:02:15,000 –> 00:02:18,080
But Song Rae is like, what, 15 shows a week?

46
00:02:18,080 –> 00:02:19,560
Like what is it, chick?

47
00:02:19,560 –> 00:02:24,880
It is not that bad, but I am going to say for myself, this is how, when she made the

48
00:02:24,880 –> 00:02:29,760
joke about me not watching American TV, I was doing, I can’t remember what I was watching.

49
00:02:29,760 –> 00:02:32,960
It had to probably be YouTube for the commercials to pop up.

50
00:02:32,960 –> 00:02:34,720
Y’all, the commercials were not in English.

51
00:02:34,720 –> 00:02:36,040
And I was like, really?

52
00:02:36,040 –> 00:02:37,360
You all don’t think I’m an American?

53
00:02:37,360 –> 00:02:38,360
Like what is this?

54
00:02:38,360 –> 00:02:39,360
Why am I getting these commercials?

55
00:02:39,360 –> 00:02:41,080
I can’t even buy this stuff.

56
00:02:41,080 –> 00:02:42,080
It made me laugh.

57
00:02:42,080 –> 00:02:45,360
I was like, okay, the algorithm doesn’t realize I’m an American.

58
00:02:45,360 –> 00:02:46,360
But moving on.

59
00:02:46,360 –> 00:02:52,160
Yes, I pretty much do not watch any American television aside from the news in the morning.

60
00:02:52,160 –> 00:02:53,920
I do variety shows.

61
00:02:53,920 –> 00:02:56,120
I do dramas.

62
00:02:56,120 –> 00:03:00,120
And again, my K-pop stuff, which has begun taking over.

63
00:03:00,120 –> 00:03:04,880
But I’m also agreeing with something else that right now it is a weird place for dramas

64
00:03:04,880 –> 00:03:06,880
because I haven’t found anything that have drawn me in.

65
00:03:06,880 –> 00:03:11,360
So I have been like digging into the vaults and finding old dramas to watch that I’ve

66
00:03:11,360 –> 00:03:12,760
heard about old classics.

67
00:03:12,760 –> 00:03:14,400
People might say, oh, you’ve never seen this?

68
00:03:14,400 –> 00:03:15,400
You should check that out.

69
00:03:15,400 –> 00:03:16,840
So yeah, I don’t know how I do it.

70
00:03:16,840 –> 00:03:19,040
I just, that’s me.

71
00:03:19,040 –> 00:03:22,560
Yeah, I have also been kind of in a lull.

72
00:03:22,560 –> 00:03:25,960
I’ve been just coming out of it, which is terrible timing starting a podcast while you’re

73
00:03:25,960 –> 00:03:27,280
also trying to binge K-dramas.

74
00:03:27,280 –> 00:03:28,280
I don’t recommend.

75
00:03:28,280 –> 00:03:30,320
But yeah, I was in a lull for a while.

76
00:03:30,320 –> 00:03:34,000
I think that happens for drama fans or maybe not even just drama fans.

77
00:03:34,000 –> 00:03:38,000
I’m sure the anime fans, video game fans, they all have lulls that they go through.

78
00:03:38,000 –> 00:03:41,400
And like for a little bit, it got me to thinking, am I a K-drama fan?

79
00:03:41,400 –> 00:03:43,400
Do I have to rethink the whole podcast?

80
00:03:43,400 –> 00:03:45,400
Like what is going on with me?

81
00:03:45,400 –> 00:03:46,960
But yeah, no, I’ve been coming out of it.

82
00:03:46,960 –> 00:03:48,560
So that’s been real, real nice.

83
00:03:48,560 –> 00:03:51,220
So you said y’all have known each other for a long time since high school.

84
00:03:51,220 –> 00:03:54,680
So my question is how long have y’all been drama fans?

85
00:03:54,680 –> 00:03:57,160
For me, it’s been since 2008.

86
00:03:57,160 –> 00:03:58,920
Something else is who introduced me.

87
00:03:58,920 –> 00:04:04,560
I was having a situation in my life and she, it was a great distraction.

88
00:04:04,560 –> 00:04:09,080
So once she introduced them to me, then yeah, I just picked them up and I would find the

89
00:04:09,080 –> 00:04:10,480
oddest places to catch them.

90
00:04:10,480 –> 00:04:15,000
Like at that time they had just started doing those boxes where you had to have to watch

91
00:04:15,000 –> 00:04:16,640
TV if you didn’t want to have cable.

92
00:04:16,640 –> 00:04:17,640
Right, right, right.

93
00:04:17,640 –> 00:04:18,640
Right.

94
00:04:18,640 –> 00:04:20,600
And I started finding dramas on there with English subs.

95
00:04:20,600 –> 00:04:23,840
So yeah, it really, I know, right?

96
00:04:23,840 –> 00:04:28,040
Well, in the early years, you couldn’t really depend on the early years.

97
00:04:28,040 –> 00:04:30,040
Like, oh, back in the day.

98
00:04:30,040 –> 00:04:37,980
No, but I started watching a little bit before then, maybe 2007 or something like that.

99
00:04:37,980 –> 00:04:40,880
And there was this channel called AZN television.

100
00:04:40,880 –> 00:04:46,720
I had been watching foreign films forever because my father was Nigerian.

101
00:04:46,720 –> 00:04:54,260
And so I was already like a bicultural kid, if you’d say, not biracial, bicultural kid.

102
00:04:54,260 –> 00:05:01,240
And so I already knew to kind of have a respect and a sensitivity to other cultures.

103
00:05:01,240 –> 00:05:03,840
And so I wasn’t afraid of like accents.

104
00:05:03,840 –> 00:05:08,560
I wasn’t afraid of subtitles in order to understand what someone was saying.

105
00:05:08,560 –> 00:05:13,200
It was more important for me to like see and understand their experience or get some kind

106
00:05:13,200 –> 00:05:16,840
of gauge of their culture and the people and how they thought.

107
00:05:16,840 –> 00:05:18,840
So I was already open to it.

108
00:05:18,840 –> 00:05:21,320
And I was just watching foreign films on Netflix.

109
00:05:21,320 –> 00:05:25,080
And then all of a sudden I’m flipping through channels one day and I’m like, there’s an

110
00:05:25,080 –> 00:05:26,280
AZN television?

111
00:05:26,280 –> 00:05:29,920
And I wasn’t even like particularly interested in East Asian.

112
00:05:29,920 –> 00:05:33,560
I mean, I was just like, okay, you’re Asian, respect, peace out.

113
00:05:33,560 –> 00:05:35,520
Like I didn’t care.

114
00:05:35,520 –> 00:05:38,360
But the stories got me.

115
00:05:38,360 –> 00:05:39,640
That’s what drew me in.

116
00:05:39,640 –> 00:05:41,680
And typically that’s what I hear.

117
00:05:41,680 –> 00:05:43,840
Like the stories are addictive.

118
00:05:43,840 –> 00:05:47,800
And even anime, like did I read a comic book here and there?

119
00:05:47,800 –> 00:05:50,680
Yeah, but I wasn’t like super into comic books.

120
00:05:50,680 –> 00:05:56,120
I watched anime only because shows like Voltron existed.

121
00:05:56,120 –> 00:05:58,680
And someone told me, oh, technically that’s anime somehow.

122
00:05:58,680 –> 00:06:00,160
I was like, oh, for real?

123
00:06:00,160 –> 00:06:01,480
Okay, I like that.

124
00:06:01,480 –> 00:06:06,800
So it was like by accident now I’m open to anime a little bit more, but I’m not like

125
00:06:06,800 –> 00:06:08,120
die hard, right?

126
00:06:08,120 –> 00:06:11,560
I’m one of those spies versus family fans.

127
00:06:11,560 –> 00:06:15,120
I’m that kind of anime watcher if that even counts.

128
00:06:15,120 –> 00:06:16,360
Oh, for sure it counts.

129
00:06:16,360 –> 00:06:19,800
You well know some people are Dragon Ball hard.

130
00:06:19,800 –> 00:06:24,320
Listen, I do not even claim in the street because they are hardcore.

131
00:06:24,320 –> 00:06:26,360
They are more hardcore than the K-drama.

132
00:06:26,360 –> 00:06:29,360
Like K-drama, you expect people to be new.

133
00:06:29,360 –> 00:06:32,360
And if they say something like, oh, okay, my first drama was on Netflix.

134
00:06:32,360 –> 00:06:36,800
I’m not going to look down on them because AZN television is gone.

135
00:06:36,800 –> 00:06:39,160
Like it showed up as a channel.

136
00:06:39,160 –> 00:06:42,600
It existed for maybe a couple of years and it disappeared.

137
00:06:42,600 –> 00:06:47,600
If maybe you were very young or something like that, you went, oh, okay, I remember

138
00:06:47,600 –> 00:06:49,160
drama fever.

139
00:06:49,160 –> 00:06:50,360
It existed for a while.

140
00:06:50,360 –> 00:06:51,360
It disappeared.

141
00:06:51,360 –> 00:06:52,360
Listen, don’t cry.

142
00:06:52,360 –> 00:06:54,760
Don’t cry any tears.

143
00:06:54,760 –> 00:06:58,800
So you get used to these outlets existing and disappearing.

144
00:06:58,800 –> 00:07:00,760
That’s what we got used to.

145
00:07:00,760 –> 00:07:04,160
So by the time we got Vicky, I was jaded.

146
00:07:04,160 –> 00:07:06,560
I was like, you know, mad at the streets.

147
00:07:06,560 –> 00:07:09,160
I was like, you all are not consistent for me.

148
00:07:09,160 –> 00:07:13,520
I think that I have so much respect for people in this space, which is also partly why I

149
00:07:13,520 –> 00:07:18,600
was so excited to talk to y’all who have been drama watchers for so long because it was

150
00:07:18,600 –> 00:07:19,600
rough out here.

151
00:07:19,600 –> 00:07:24,040
I remember how I originally got into dramas was 2019.

152
00:07:24,040 –> 00:07:26,180
So I’m very new to the space and it was Netflix.

153
00:07:26,180 –> 00:07:29,720
I thought I was watching a foreign film and then they were like next episode and I was

154
00:07:29,720 –> 00:07:30,720
like, pardon?

155
00:07:30,720 –> 00:07:31,720
There’s more?

156
00:07:31,720 –> 00:07:32,720
Oh, okay.

157
00:07:32,720 –> 00:07:37,560
But before that, I remember it had to be like 2010.

158
00:07:37,560 –> 00:07:41,320
I had a friend who was really into K-dramas and she was really pushing me to watch them.

159
00:07:41,320 –> 00:07:44,080
She’s like, you’d like them, but it was rough in the streets.

160
00:07:44,080 –> 00:07:48,240
I was like, I’m not going to try and get into this because I’ve always been into anime.

161
00:07:48,240 –> 00:07:51,720
So I knew what it was like to have access to things.

162
00:07:51,720 –> 00:07:54,760
In K-dramas, you just didn’t have the access like that back then.

163
00:07:54,760 –> 00:07:57,200
I was not trying to struggle like that.

164
00:07:57,200 –> 00:08:02,800
So when I hear people who got into it early, I’m always like, dang, that’s wild.

165
00:08:02,800 –> 00:08:03,800
Yes.

166
00:08:03,800 –> 00:08:09,200
To the point where this chick used to get DVDs emailed or mailed to her and would bring

167
00:08:09,200 –> 00:08:11,000
them by and we would watch the DVDs.

168
00:08:11,000 –> 00:08:14,360
That is the old school anime days.

169
00:08:14,360 –> 00:08:19,840
Originally anime in like the 80s, they had fans who would translate it, sub it, and then

170
00:08:19,840 –> 00:08:22,320
you could order them and they would mail DVDs.

171
00:08:22,320 –> 00:08:23,320
Wow.

172
00:08:23,320 –> 00:08:24,320
Wow.

173
00:08:24,320 –> 00:08:25,320
That’s much respect.

174
00:08:25,320 –> 00:08:26,320
Right.

175
00:08:26,320 –> 00:08:27,320
Right.

176
00:08:27,320 –> 00:08:28,320
That’s a total fan service.

177
00:08:28,320 –> 00:08:29,320
Exactly.

178
00:08:29,320 –> 00:08:32,240
It couldn’t be me, especially now, now that we live in the streaming age, you can’t go

179
00:08:32,240 –> 00:08:33,240
back.

180
00:08:33,240 –> 00:08:34,240
No, everything.

181
00:08:34,240 –> 00:08:38,000
That’s how come I am so frustrated with Dog on Disney Plus.

182
00:08:38,000 –> 00:08:39,760
Like I’m mad all over.

183
00:08:39,760 –> 00:08:41,920
Please, let’s get into it.

184
00:08:41,920 –> 00:08:42,920
Oh boy.

185
00:08:42,920 –> 00:08:44,960
Because there’s a drama I want to watch.

186
00:08:44,960 –> 00:08:49,200
I can’t watch because guess who has it and guess where they’re only releasing it.

187
00:08:49,200 –> 00:08:51,640
And I’m going, why are we playing this game?

188
00:08:51,640 –> 00:08:53,480
It’s 2023.

189
00:08:53,480 –> 00:08:54,480
That is what I’m saying.

190
00:08:54,480 –> 00:08:55,480
That I want it.

191
00:08:55,480 –> 00:08:56,480
What was it?

192
00:08:56,480 –> 00:08:59,200
Soundtrack 101, I think, or something like that with Park Hyun-ki.

193
00:08:59,200 –> 00:09:00,200
Soundtrack number one.

194
00:09:00,200 –> 00:09:01,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

195
00:09:01,200 –> 00:09:02,800
I wanted to, he’s one of my favorites.

196
00:09:02,800 –> 00:09:07,120
I was so desperate to watch it and it took like a year.

197
00:09:07,120 –> 00:09:08,800
Oh, I was so mad.

198
00:09:08,800 –> 00:09:10,080
I’m still mad about it.

199
00:09:10,080 –> 00:09:12,280
Like I’ve seen it now, but I’m still mad about it.

200
00:09:12,280 –> 00:09:16,600
Yeah, I went rogue and just went on over to Drama Cool, got a VPN because I was like,

201
00:09:16,600 –> 00:09:17,600
screw this.

202
00:09:17,600 –> 00:09:18,600
I want to see this.

203
00:09:18,600 –> 00:09:20,520
I want to see it was like two other ones at the time.

204
00:09:20,520 –> 00:09:21,520
I’m watching them.

205
00:09:21,520 –> 00:09:22,520
Sorry.

206
00:09:22,520 –> 00:09:23,520
That’s what you got to do sometimes.

207
00:09:23,520 –> 00:09:25,880
Disney plays too many games and honestly they’ve got enough money.

208
00:09:25,880 –> 00:09:26,880
They don’t need it from me.

209
00:09:26,880 –> 00:09:27,880
And I understand.

210
00:09:27,880 –> 00:09:31,360
I truly don’t understand because right now Family is out.

211
00:09:31,360 –> 00:09:32,880
I think it’s called Family.

212
00:09:32,880 –> 00:09:35,320
That is a drama I was highly looking forward to.

213
00:09:35,320 –> 00:09:37,160
The two of them were in a drama before.

214
00:09:37,160 –> 00:09:38,560
I was looking forward to this.

215
00:09:38,560 –> 00:09:39,560
I was excited.

216
00:09:39,560 –> 00:09:40,840
It kept coming.

217
00:09:40,840 –> 00:09:41,840
No one had any.

218
00:09:41,840 –> 00:09:42,840
Where’s it going to be?

219
00:09:42,840 –> 00:09:43,840
Where’s it going to be in?

220
00:09:43,840 –> 00:09:44,840
Oh, I said Disney Plus.

221
00:09:44,840 –> 00:09:45,840
They said they were worldwide streaming.

222
00:09:45,840 –> 00:09:48,040
I’m like, y’all, I don’t know about this.

223
00:09:48,040 –> 00:09:49,040
It sounded like a game.

224
00:09:49,040 –> 00:09:51,680
We got to it released on Friday.

225
00:09:51,680 –> 00:09:54,280
No, there’s there’s no word for us to watch.

226
00:09:54,280 –> 00:09:55,280
Are you serious?

227
00:09:55,280 –> 00:09:56,280
I didn’t know it was out.

228
00:09:56,280 –> 00:09:57,280
Listen, I was.

229
00:09:57,280 –> 00:10:01,960
Yes, listen, it took me a while to get to the Korean version of Faded to Love You.

230
00:10:01,960 –> 00:10:02,960
But I did.

231
00:10:02,960 –> 00:10:04,440
And when I said to love you.

232
00:10:04,440 –> 00:10:05,440
Right.

233
00:10:05,440 –> 00:10:09,120
And when I fell in love with Faded to Love You, I was like, if I ever see them as a couple

234
00:10:09,120 –> 00:10:12,640
again and you’re telling me I can’t watch it.

235
00:10:12,640 –> 00:10:15,520
Disney’s playing big games again.

236
00:10:15,520 –> 00:10:20,640
But you know, like I feel some gray on what she’s talking about regarding Disney.

237
00:10:20,640 –> 00:10:27,640
But for me, it’s more about Japanese dramas are not delivering as far as subtitles.

238
00:10:27,640 –> 00:10:29,160
You don’t see them on Viki.

239
00:10:29,160 –> 00:10:32,140
And I guess a sketch site, you’re in trouble.

240
00:10:32,140 –> 00:10:33,480
So that’s my pee.

241
00:10:33,480 –> 00:10:40,240
And I’m gonna agree with you 110% right now because I am a new fan of NCT.

242
00:10:40,240 –> 00:10:42,460
You too is a Japanese member.

243
00:10:42,460 –> 00:10:43,460
He’s in a drama.

244
00:10:43,460 –> 00:10:44,460
Okay.

245
00:10:44,460 –> 00:10:45,720
And so I’m like, oh yeah, I want to find the drama.

246
00:10:45,720 –> 00:10:46,720
Japanese drama?

247
00:10:46,720 –> 00:10:47,720
Yes.

248
00:10:47,720 –> 00:10:48,720
Yes.

249
00:10:48,720 –> 00:10:49,720
It’s cool.

250
00:10:49,720 –> 00:10:52,760
I’m like, be cool guys or something like that is the American translation.

251
00:10:52,760 –> 00:10:56,360
But any which way I’m in the streets trying to figure out how I’m gonna watch this drama.

252
00:10:56,360 –> 00:10:58,040
How I’m gonna watch the drama.

253
00:10:58,040 –> 00:11:00,960
And yeah, no, it took a fan going, check this site out.

254
00:11:00,960 –> 00:11:03,840
Okay, I click it and there it is with English subtitles.

255
00:11:03,840 –> 00:11:04,840
No problem.

256
00:11:04,840 –> 00:11:07,260
But then episode two, I’m like, well, where’s episode two?

257
00:11:07,260 –> 00:11:10,080
How come on this site, this same site, I cannot find episode two.

258
00:11:10,080 –> 00:11:11,080
I’m digging around.

259
00:11:11,080 –> 00:11:14,680
I was about to say, I’m surprised that NCTzens didn’t get you together because like they

260
00:11:14,680 –> 00:11:16,480
have they have fans.

261
00:11:16,480 –> 00:11:19,520
They’d be passing around driveways, dropbox, you name it.

262
00:11:19,520 –> 00:11:21,400
They will find a way.

263
00:11:21,400 –> 00:11:22,400
Respect.

264
00:11:22,400 –> 00:11:26,880
That’s one of the reasons why we wanted to go on and just have podcasts instead of just

265
00:11:26,880 –> 00:11:32,640
talking among ourselves or trying to indoctrinate our friends because we yeah, that’s a nice

266
00:11:32,640 –> 00:11:35,560
way of saying we were trying to get them hooked anyway.

267
00:11:35,560 –> 00:11:40,280
But it was because we were looking for community because we’re looking for other people who

268
00:11:40,280 –> 00:11:44,200
are watching what we’re watching, wanting to talk about the same shows we’re talking

269
00:11:44,200 –> 00:11:45,920
about as passionate.

270
00:11:45,920 –> 00:11:46,920
Right.

271
00:11:46,920 –> 00:11:49,640
So we were confused, like, what does this mean culturally?

272
00:11:49,640 –> 00:11:50,920
Oh, what are they really saying?

273
00:11:50,920 –> 00:11:54,680
What is the subtext that we could reach out and ask that question?

274
00:11:54,680 –> 00:11:57,840
And there would be others who would like reach back with answers.

275
00:11:57,840 –> 00:11:58,840
It’s been very welcoming.

276
00:11:58,840 –> 00:11:59,840
Truly it has.

277
00:11:59,840 –> 00:12:02,080
What has been your experience?

278
00:12:02,080 –> 00:12:04,560
That’s what I was going to actually ask you all next what that’s been like.

279
00:12:04,560 –> 00:12:08,320
I have struggled to find community in KDrama.

280
00:12:08,320 –> 00:12:13,720
Not like there are friends I have IRL who watch them to different levels, but like the

281
00:12:13,720 –> 00:12:15,320
broader community.

282
00:12:15,320 –> 00:12:16,320
It’s been hard.

283
00:12:16,320 –> 00:12:19,880
It feels like KDramas are so popular and yet still kind of niche.

284
00:12:19,880 –> 00:12:21,240
I know, right?

285
00:12:21,240 –> 00:12:25,160
Like once you get in, it’s like, oh, wow, look at all these people here.

286
00:12:25,160 –> 00:12:26,400
But getting in is the hard part.

287
00:12:26,400 –> 00:12:30,560
I started just like a side Twitter to try and like engage with people.

288
00:12:30,560 –> 00:12:32,920
And I will say people were very friendly over there.

289
00:12:32,920 –> 00:12:34,960
Again, I didn’t engage with that many people.

290
00:12:34,960 –> 00:12:36,000
It’s a very small account.

291
00:12:36,000 –> 00:12:37,280
You can go follow it if you all want.

292
00:12:37,280 –> 00:12:41,120
At Drama Digest, I think Drama Underscore Digest, something like that.

293
00:12:41,120 –> 00:12:42,400
People are very friendly over there.

294
00:12:42,400 –> 00:12:45,840
And it just feels like a fandom where everybody’s there to have a good time.

295
00:12:45,840 –> 00:12:52,520
I will say, though, again, I’m coming to KDramas more recently than say like y’all or other

296
00:12:52,520 –> 00:12:57,280
OGs who were out here in the streets just like buying DVDs.

297
00:12:57,280 –> 00:13:00,680
So I do think about the representation of it all and seeing some of the fandom, how

298
00:13:00,680 –> 00:13:04,760
they react to certain things in dramas is difficult.

299
00:13:04,760 –> 00:13:05,860
I don’t.

300
00:13:05,860 –> 00:13:09,760
It’s the same in K-pop, like wanting to defend your faves, even though your faves are doing

301
00:13:09,760 –> 00:13:10,760
something wrong.

302
00:13:10,760 –> 00:13:12,720
Like we got to talk about it.

303
00:13:12,720 –> 00:13:14,640
So that part’s been hard, I think.

304
00:13:14,640 –> 00:13:18,920
What’s y’all’s experience been like, you know, being black women in the, I guess, drama fandom

305
00:13:18,920 –> 00:13:19,960
space, especially back then?

306
00:13:19,960 –> 00:13:22,040
I wonder, was it different back in the beginning?

307
00:13:22,040 –> 00:13:23,040
Has it changed?

308
00:13:23,040 –> 00:13:27,320
Now see, back then, because that’s what I’m about to speak on for me, back when we first

309
00:13:27,320 –> 00:13:28,960
started, it was just me and her.

310
00:13:28,960 –> 00:13:33,040
We didn’t really delve off into social media to start talking.

311
00:13:33,040 –> 00:13:39,040
I think the pandemic is really what put us in a space where we were able to, oh, did

312
00:13:39,040 –> 00:13:40,040
you see this account?

313
00:13:40,040 –> 00:13:41,080
They’re talking about K-dramas.

314
00:13:41,080 –> 00:13:42,080
Did you see this account?

315
00:13:42,080 –> 00:13:43,380
They’re talking about K-dramas.

316
00:13:43,380 –> 00:13:47,240
And then we sat down and thought, hey, well, why don’t we, this way we can go and build

317
00:13:47,240 –> 00:13:51,600
community, meet some people, find other folks who are like us, who are interested in dramas.

318
00:13:51,600 –> 00:13:52,600
And we did.

319
00:13:52,600 –> 00:13:55,200
Like once we stepped out there and said, hey, here’s who we are and what we’re trying to

320
00:13:55,200 –> 00:13:58,600
do, we found other people who were willing to come back and go, oh, I’m over here.

321
00:13:58,600 –> 00:14:00,120
I’ve been watching dramas for years too.

322
00:14:00,120 –> 00:14:02,920
And you know, or I just started watching dramas or whatever.

323
00:14:02,920 –> 00:14:05,100
And we were able to commune and meet that way.

324
00:14:05,100 –> 00:14:07,240
But in the beginning, no, truly it was just us.

325
00:14:07,240 –> 00:14:11,560
And like she said, the indoctrination of folks who sometimes willingly came and sometimes

326
00:14:11,560 –> 00:14:13,040
kicking and screaming came.

327
00:14:13,040 –> 00:14:17,360
I kind of feel like it’s just a representation of just regular life.

328
00:14:17,360 –> 00:14:20,720
Because there are those friends and those people who anything can happen and they are

329
00:14:20,720 –> 00:14:25,440
going to find a way to make an excuse or excuse behaviors that should not be in the same applies

330
00:14:25,440 –> 00:14:28,200
in this with K-drama and K-pop.

331
00:14:28,200 –> 00:14:30,680
Where there are things that are happening, you’re like, no, that’s wrong.

332
00:14:30,680 –> 00:14:33,240
I don’t care what you say at the end of the day, that’s out of order.

333
00:14:33,240 –> 00:14:36,480
And it’s okay to say something’s out of order and then keep moving from that.

334
00:14:36,480 –> 00:14:38,960
Now, are they going to grow from this or are we going to keep acting like it’s all right

335
00:14:38,960 –> 00:14:40,920
and keep repeating the same wrongs?

336
00:14:40,920 –> 00:14:42,940
So that space has been difficult.

337
00:14:42,940 –> 00:14:48,120
So we had a whole podcast about a situation from a drama that we found offensive.

338
00:14:48,120 –> 00:14:52,120
We spoke about it being offensive and oh, the kickback, people blocked us.

339
00:14:52,120 –> 00:14:53,120
Oh, it was hilarious.

340
00:14:53,120 –> 00:14:54,120
And I’m thinking goodbye.

341
00:14:54,120 –> 00:14:59,640
Because at the end of the day, if this sets you off to that degree, you know, you weren’t

342
00:14:59,640 –> 00:15:01,040
meant to be part of this anyway.

343
00:15:01,040 –> 00:15:03,520
We’re here saying, this is our experience.

344
00:15:03,520 –> 00:15:04,520
This is how we feel.

345
00:15:04,520 –> 00:15:07,280
And yes, I hear what you’re telling us about them being homogenous.

346
00:15:07,280 –> 00:15:11,080
But at the end of the day, at this point, we can’t keep making that be the excuse because

347
00:15:11,080 –> 00:15:13,200
there’s plenty of other people over there.

348
00:15:13,200 –> 00:15:17,920
There are lots of folks traveling, exploring and out there making themselves known and

349
00:15:17,920 –> 00:15:19,140
sharing their experiences.

350
00:15:19,140 –> 00:15:21,360
So no, that can’t keep being our reasoning.

351
00:15:21,360 –> 00:15:25,720
It’s harder, I feel like, to deal with K-drama and K-pop stands specifically because they’re

352
00:15:25,720 –> 00:15:30,480
just so passionate because the industry does, you know, encourage kind of like that parasocial

353
00:15:30,480 –> 00:15:34,560
relationship versus say, anime or Lord of the Rings or, you know, something that it

354
00:15:34,560 –> 00:15:37,600
doesn’t have quite that same fervor, I would say.

355
00:15:37,600 –> 00:15:40,440
Like if I were to call out something in a Marvel movie, a lot of people are going to

356
00:15:40,440 –> 00:15:41,880
agree with me and the people who don’t agree with me.

357
00:15:41,880 –> 00:15:43,480
I mean, the online space is the online space.

358
00:15:43,480 –> 00:15:46,080
There’s going to be disagreements, but it’s not that serious.

359
00:15:46,080 –> 00:15:47,080
People don’t take it personal.

360
00:15:47,080 –> 00:15:51,940
But I feel like it’s much harder in these spaces because they want to excuse their faves

361
00:15:51,940 –> 00:15:55,640
so badly because they feel like they have this personal relationship with their fave.

362
00:15:55,640 –> 00:15:58,520
That’s the excuse that always comes up like, but they’re a homogenous country.

363
00:15:58,520 –> 00:15:59,720
They don’t know better.

364
00:15:59,720 –> 00:16:04,560
First of all, I find that to be pretty like infantilizing their adults.

365
00:16:04,560 –> 00:16:07,500
They know what they’re doing and they’ve made choices.

366
00:16:07,500 –> 00:16:12,240
And second of all, there is a line, I think, between asking people to be better in a different

367
00:16:12,240 –> 00:16:17,160
culture to be, especially if they’re trying to reach out across their cultural lines,

368
00:16:17,160 –> 00:16:20,400
like something else was saying, like that’s very purposeful on the government’s part.

369
00:16:20,400 –> 00:16:22,400
So yes, I think it’s fine to ask them to be better.

370
00:16:22,400 –> 00:16:26,200
But there is a fine line between that and cultural imperialism where, you know, we’re

371
00:16:26,200 –> 00:16:29,700
like Western ideals are the ideals and the only ones that matter.

372
00:16:29,700 –> 00:16:31,260
So I do think there is that line.

373
00:16:31,260 –> 00:16:36,560
But the line isn’t saying, hey, that portrayal of that character on Backstreet Rookie sucked.

374
00:16:36,560 –> 00:16:37,840
So let’s not do that.

375
00:16:37,840 –> 00:16:38,840
Exactly.

376
00:16:38,840 –> 00:16:39,840
Right.

377
00:16:39,840 –> 00:16:44,920
And you know, one of the things we’ve learned as we’ve kind of jumped into community is

378
00:16:44,920 –> 00:16:48,480
that we get all kinds of information back.

379
00:16:48,480 –> 00:16:55,720
And so the great thing about Clubhouse is that it did tap us into a whole group of folks

380
00:16:55,720 –> 00:16:59,720
and some of them were academics who wanted to talk about these issues.

381
00:16:59,720 –> 00:17:05,480
And so we learned during a talk, this guy, I think he was like a South Korean, either

382
00:17:05,480 –> 00:17:08,760
a sociologist or some kind of doctor, but he’d written a book.

383
00:17:08,760 –> 00:17:12,680
I was buying groceries listening to them talk.

384
00:17:12,680 –> 00:17:22,520
But basically he said this whole excuse about being homogeneous is false because they had

385
00:17:22,520 –> 00:17:26,680
a history of anti-blackness well before now.

386
00:17:26,680 –> 00:17:27,680
Right?

387
00:17:27,680 –> 00:17:33,840
This is, Africans and people of color and black people were not a new concept for them.

388
00:17:33,840 –> 00:17:40,840
And he went back and pulled the newspaper clippings and the history that basically said

389
00:17:40,840 –> 00:17:46,320
at different times, hey, we may be down right now, like in one of their clippings, but at

390
00:17:46,320 –> 00:17:48,780
least we’re not black, at least we’re not African.

391
00:17:48,780 –> 00:17:55,040
And that wasn’t everyone, of course, but like they had a concept of Africa and Africans

392
00:17:55,040 –> 00:17:57,480
and then not wanting to be that.

393
00:17:57,480 –> 00:18:03,040
And this idea that they were so disassociated with the rest of the world that they didn’t

394
00:18:03,040 –> 00:18:10,680
know, like they’ve always had that history of the other, not even that has to always

395
00:18:10,680 –> 00:18:12,440
be anti-black, but the other.

396
00:18:12,440 –> 00:18:15,920
And I’m like, if you’re just over on your lonesome and you don’t know any better, I

397
00:18:15,920 –> 00:18:18,920
could let that go, but you’re trying to make money off of us.

398
00:18:18,920 –> 00:18:22,840
You’re reaching out into the world saying, Hey, can I have a dollar?

399
00:18:22,840 –> 00:18:25,760
So I’m like, can I have some reciprocity?

400
00:18:25,760 –> 00:18:27,360
Can I have some understanding?

401
00:18:27,360 –> 00:18:28,360
You don’t have to get everything.

402
00:18:28,360 –> 00:18:30,160
You don’t have to know our slang.

403
00:18:30,160 –> 00:18:33,520
I mean, it’s crazy because they may know our slang before they understand our point of

404
00:18:33,520 –> 00:18:34,520
view.

405
00:18:34,520 –> 00:18:39,000
So I’m like, can you just not do something as bad as Backstreet Rookie?

406
00:18:39,000 –> 00:18:40,360
Like we have low standards.

407
00:18:40,360 –> 00:18:41,840
I’m at that point.

408
00:18:41,840 –> 00:18:43,400
Don’t even mention black folks.

409
00:18:43,400 –> 00:18:44,400
Yes.

410
00:18:44,400 –> 00:18:48,200
Is a lot of K-pop based on black R&B?

411
00:18:48,200 –> 00:18:49,200
Yeah.

412
00:18:49,200 –> 00:18:50,200
Right.

413
00:18:50,200 –> 00:18:51,920
But let’s ignore that.

414
00:18:51,920 –> 00:18:52,920
Cause you all are too.

415
00:18:52,920 –> 00:18:55,920
Just do your thing.

416
00:18:55,920 –> 00:18:56,920
Don’t mention us.

417
00:18:56,920 –> 00:18:58,720
That’s where I come from.

418
00:18:58,720 –> 00:19:03,600
I mean, someone may want to see black representation more, you know, a J. Cole situation.

419
00:19:03,600 –> 00:19:08,480
Cause I saw that J. Cole and whomever the dude was, I don’t even know who he was.

420
00:19:08,480 –> 00:19:09,880
A BTS member.

421
00:19:09,880 –> 00:19:11,880
But let me just say that was a cool video.

422
00:19:11,880 –> 00:19:12,880
I liked that video.

423
00:19:12,880 –> 00:19:13,880
I was happy to see J. Cole.

424
00:19:13,880 –> 00:19:18,400
I was about to say, Sierra just did one with Jackson Wayne, the song released, I think

425
00:19:18,400 –> 00:19:20,680
three or four days ago, not too long.

426
00:19:20,680 –> 00:19:21,680
Song is nice.

427
00:19:21,680 –> 00:19:22,680
The song is very, very nice.

428
00:19:22,680 –> 00:19:26,520
But again, like I’m not pressed about, I like it.

429
00:19:26,520 –> 00:19:31,320
And I think that there are artists who are open to being mindful of the concept that

430
00:19:31,320 –> 00:19:37,420
emulating, liking a sound, things like that does not mean me trying to take it on and

431
00:19:37,420 –> 00:19:39,220
putting it on as a costume.

432
00:19:39,220 –> 00:19:41,240
Cause that’s where I think my issue comes in.

433
00:19:41,240 –> 00:19:46,340
I’m not a costume, how I dress, what I look like, my hair, my sound, those are not costumes.

434
00:19:46,340 –> 00:19:48,920
So if you’re putting a costume on, I have an issue with you.

435
00:19:48,920 –> 00:19:54,360
If you are simply appreciating and your appreciation flows into what you do, I’m cool with that.

436
00:19:54,360 –> 00:20:00,840
But when you start purposefully having stylists, like I literally watched the old video the

437
00:20:00,840 –> 00:20:05,400
other day and I’m like, somebody bought weave and put that in that man’s head.

438
00:20:05,400 –> 00:20:06,400
Why?

439
00:20:06,400 –> 00:20:07,400
Why?

440
00:20:07,400 –> 00:20:08,400
What was the point?

441
00:20:08,400 –> 00:20:12,520
Or I look at your clothes and I know for a fact, the stylist bought those for you because

442
00:20:12,520 –> 00:20:15,560
they’re giving you this urban and you call it hip hop, but like,

443
00:20:15,560 –> 00:20:17,380
Well, okay.

444
00:20:17,380 –> 00:20:21,280
So then I’m going to flip on the other side because I’m hypocritical that way.

445
00:20:21,280 –> 00:20:26,640
I remember pictures of NSYNC where, and Backstreet Boys,

446
00:20:26,640 –> 00:20:28,360
I felt the same way then too.

447
00:20:28,360 –> 00:20:29,360
Right.

448
00:20:29,360 –> 00:20:30,360
Where they did that kind of stuff.

449
00:20:30,360 –> 00:20:31,360
Yours not excluded.

450
00:20:31,360 –> 00:20:32,360
They did.

451
00:20:32,360 –> 00:20:33,360
They did.

452
00:20:33,360 –> 00:20:40,520
So it’s like, I allow for a learning curve, just not so steep that you give us blackface.

453
00:20:40,520 –> 00:20:41,520
Continual.

454
00:20:41,520 –> 00:20:42,520
Literal blackface.

455
00:20:42,520 –> 00:20:46,280
And that’s all I’m saying is that the problem that I have is that we are talking recent

456
00:20:46,280 –> 00:20:47,280
years.

457
00:20:47,280 –> 00:20:48,760
We’re not talking 10 years ago.

458
00:20:48,760 –> 00:20:51,140
We’re talking within the past five.

459
00:20:51,140 –> 00:20:54,040
Just when I’m saying to you, you’re like, the country’s not that big.

460
00:20:54,040 –> 00:20:58,400
The industry that you all are working in is not that big because people begin to know

461
00:20:58,400 –> 00:20:59,400
people.

462
00:20:59,400 –> 00:21:03,560
If I work in the field of economics and I’m over here doing this certain job, I began

463
00:21:03,560 –> 00:21:05,160
to know people in my field.

464
00:21:05,160 –> 00:21:06,820
The same applies in music.

465
00:21:06,820 –> 00:21:09,960
If I’m a stylist who works with musicians, I began to know other stylists.

466
00:21:09,960 –> 00:21:14,600
And so you learn, you should, let me just say that you should learn there are certain

467
00:21:14,600 –> 00:21:16,640
things you shouldn’t be doing or suggesting.

468
00:21:16,640 –> 00:21:20,000
Plus you all are interacting from that whole video.

469
00:21:20,000 –> 00:21:22,720
There’s a video that’s on Vicky, what’s it called?

470
00:21:22,720 –> 00:21:26,800
K-pop something where they talk about the history of K-pop and how it became so big.

471
00:21:26,800 –> 00:21:28,720
And they like went into varying areas.

472
00:21:28,720 –> 00:21:29,800
Did either of you all watch that?

473
00:21:29,800 –> 00:21:30,800
I did not watch it.

474
00:21:30,800 –> 00:21:31,800
Okay.

475
00:21:31,800 –> 00:21:34,240
Well, whatever this show is called, I can’t think of it right at this second, but whatever

476
00:21:34,240 –> 00:21:38,800
the show is called, they had a section where they had talked about how they, the K-pop

477
00:21:38,800 –> 00:21:39,940
industry.

478
00:21:39,940 –> 00:21:44,360
So it’s not like one company versus another, but the industry itself has been pulling people

479
00:21:44,360 –> 00:21:49,000
from other countries to come help them, you know, give them this worldly sound, which

480
00:21:49,000 –> 00:21:51,400
great, you’re pulling people who are authentic.

481
00:21:51,400 –> 00:21:52,400
So great.

482
00:21:52,400 –> 00:21:53,400
That’s fine.

483
00:21:53,400 –> 00:21:56,520
You’re telling me they’re coming over and nobody is stopping to say, Hey, yeah, you

484
00:21:56,520 –> 00:21:57,520
probably shouldn’t say that.

485
00:21:57,520 –> 00:22:00,080
Or, Hey, hey, yeah, you probably shouldn’t, nobody saying anything.

486
00:22:00,080 –> 00:22:02,160
We’re all just, okay, clapping it up.

487
00:22:02,160 –> 00:22:03,160
No.

488
00:22:03,160 –> 00:22:04,160
Okay.

489
00:22:04,160 –> 00:22:05,160
I’m going to be real, real with you.

490
00:22:05,160 –> 00:22:06,160
They’re sell outs.

491
00:22:06,160 –> 00:22:07,160
Let me just keep it up.

492
00:22:07,160 –> 00:22:08,160
I don’t think that.

493
00:22:08,160 –> 00:22:09,160
I don’t think everybody is.

494
00:22:09,160 –> 00:22:13,240
I don’t say every single body is, but even in America, when you look at how stuff hits

495
00:22:13,240 –> 00:22:16,960
the airwaves or whatever, and you’re like, how did this happen?

496
00:22:16,960 –> 00:22:20,160
And it’s because you had a whole bunch of people working for a job and they knew it

497
00:22:20,160 –> 00:22:24,800
was dirty, but they shut their mouths because they were getting their check.

498
00:22:24,800 –> 00:22:30,200
And so they didn’t feel comfortable saying this isn’t right or like pointing it out.

499
00:22:30,200 –> 00:22:37,720
You’re like, okay, so three or four levels, this thing went through this video, this newspaper,

500
00:22:37,720 –> 00:22:44,800
this anything, you know, newspaper article, anything went through and nobody said, Hey,

501
00:22:44,800 –> 00:22:47,080
the emperor is wearing no clothing.

502
00:22:47,080 –> 00:22:48,720
It’s because they’re getting their checks.

503
00:22:48,720 –> 00:22:52,680
And I hate to use the term sell out, like just be hardcore with it, but they’re selling

504
00:22:52,680 –> 00:22:53,680
out.

505
00:22:53,680 –> 00:22:54,680
That’s what’s happening.

506
00:22:54,680 –> 00:22:58,880
I agree that I personally think that that’s probably the case for some situations.

507
00:22:58,880 –> 00:23:00,480
I just don’t think that’s all.

508
00:23:00,480 –> 00:23:02,080
Delia, what do you think?

509
00:23:02,080 –> 00:23:06,560
Because I wonder your opinion too, because I see you flowing in K-pop as well, right?

510
00:23:06,560 –> 00:23:10,160
Yeah, yeah, I definitely, again, I wouldn’t say I’m like a super K-pop fan.

511
00:23:10,160 –> 00:23:13,720
I try and keep the balance, you know, like I try not to lose myself to it.

512
00:23:13,720 –> 00:23:17,000
I have lost myself to it a few times, but you got to pull yourself out.

513
00:23:17,000 –> 00:23:18,460
Yeah, it’s give and take.

514
00:23:18,460 –> 00:23:21,040
It’s really hard to do it in moderation, I will say.

515
00:23:21,040 –> 00:23:27,640
My thoughts on the K-pop of it all and I guess representation in K-media in general is that

516
00:23:27,640 –> 00:23:29,560
they’re reaching out across the globe, right?

517
00:23:29,560 –> 00:23:33,360
They want at least I’m not going to say the artist so much, but at least the companies

518
00:23:33,360 –> 00:23:36,760
want their foothold in America in the West.

519
00:23:36,760 –> 00:23:42,200
So to me, then you need to do the work and making sure your artists, your product, all

520
00:23:42,200 –> 00:23:44,320
of it is coming from a globalized mindset.

521
00:23:44,320 –> 00:23:48,760
Like your country can be homogenous and I do also take issue with that argument because

522
00:23:48,760 –> 00:23:51,760
there are multicultural people they don’t get accounted for and they don’t get resources

523
00:23:51,760 –> 00:23:55,040
like they need in places like Korea, but there are black people, there are Indian people,

524
00:23:55,040 –> 00:23:59,520
like there are people of other races in Korea, even if like they’re a small percentage, they

525
00:23:59,520 –> 00:24:00,760
are still there.

526
00:24:00,760 –> 00:24:04,160
I think it’s incumbent upon the companies to step up and do that.

527
00:24:04,160 –> 00:24:08,160
And so I feel like as fans, I think it makes sense to ask for it.

528
00:24:08,160 –> 00:24:11,800
I think when it comes to individuals, so you’re talking about like the artists and stuff,

529
00:24:11,800 –> 00:24:14,560
and this is not me just being a stan, like protect the babies.

530
00:24:14,560 –> 00:24:18,520
Like they can learn, they’re adults and they should learn, but I don’t think we need to

531
00:24:18,520 –> 00:24:23,200
approach them with like the vitriol because I do think on the individual level, there

532
00:24:23,200 –> 00:24:24,240
is a lot of ignorance.

533
00:24:24,240 –> 00:24:27,880
I can have sympathy for ignorance because like we all have not always known what we

534
00:24:27,880 –> 00:24:28,880
knew, you know?

535
00:24:28,880 –> 00:24:31,800
So I think there needs to be space for individuals to learn.

536
00:24:31,800 –> 00:24:34,520
But when it comes to the companies, yeah, no, F them, they need to do better.

537
00:24:34,520 –> 00:24:38,160
They have the resources, they have the tools, they’ve been interacting on an international

538
00:24:38,160 –> 00:24:39,800
level for a long time.

539
00:24:39,800 –> 00:24:41,800
There’s really no excuses as far as that’s concerned.

540
00:24:41,800 –> 00:24:46,440
As far as I don’t know if I would call it selling out as much, but I do think that these

541
00:24:46,440 –> 00:24:47,800
are big opportunities, right?

542
00:24:47,800 –> 00:24:53,120
For artists in America, like there’s good pay, you get a really supportive fan base,

543
00:24:53,120 –> 00:24:56,800
like off jump because you know, K-pop fans, anybody who supports their faves, they’re

544
00:24:56,800 –> 00:24:58,380
also going to support.

545
00:24:58,380 –> 00:25:02,400
So I can understand it because it’s a whole new market.

546
00:25:02,400 –> 00:25:03,800
It’s really accessible.

547
00:25:03,800 –> 00:25:08,320
And honestly, what are you the one American writer going to say to the big behemoth like

548
00:25:08,320 –> 00:25:12,480
SM or high media, like it’s not going to go far.

549
00:25:12,480 –> 00:25:20,240
So I’m sure babyface is making music somewhere, but he’s not, I would love to know.

550
00:25:20,240 –> 00:25:21,360
I’ve actually had that thought.

551
00:25:21,360 –> 00:25:23,600
I’m like, you know, babyface got to be in K-pop.

552
00:25:23,600 –> 00:25:28,760
Like, you know, quietly writing, yes, writing and producing.

553
00:25:28,760 –> 00:25:29,760
That would be interesting.

554
00:25:29,760 –> 00:25:31,600
I mean, I would listen to that stuff.

555
00:25:31,600 –> 00:25:36,160
Well, I mean, again, as we’ve expressed, they’re pulling a lot of their sounds from

556
00:25:36,160 –> 00:25:38,360
90s music.

557
00:25:38,360 –> 00:25:43,480
There was a clip that went viral of, I can’t, I think it might’ve been new jeans.

558
00:25:43,480 –> 00:25:47,720
I might be wrong, but they were talking about how the music that they like is like 90s R&B

559
00:25:47,720 –> 00:25:48,720
like girl groups.

560
00:25:48,720 –> 00:25:51,320
Like they were talking about TLC and in Vogue.

561
00:25:51,320 –> 00:25:58,200
Yeah, my fave in NCT, he does these LP things where he was on this show and he just spun

562
00:25:58,200 –> 00:25:59,580
some of his favorite records.

563
00:25:59,580 –> 00:26:01,880
The very first record he played was El DeBarge.

564
00:26:01,880 –> 00:26:02,880
I like it.

565
00:26:02,880 –> 00:26:05,200
I was like, wow, really?

566
00:26:05,200 –> 00:26:06,200
It was funny to me.

567
00:26:06,200 –> 00:26:08,040
And a lot of the stuff that he played was all black music.

568
00:26:08,040 –> 00:26:12,000
It was only one song by like, I think a 70s artist.

569
00:26:12,000 –> 00:26:15,760
I can’t think of what song it was, but everything else was yeah, black old school music and

570
00:26:15,760 –> 00:26:17,760
not except for Frank Ocean.

571
00:26:17,760 –> 00:26:19,320
But yeah, I was like, wow.

572
00:26:19,320 –> 00:26:21,040
I guess that leads me to the question.

573
00:26:21,040 –> 00:26:26,160
Like, what is the line for y’all both as fans, like going into a culture and for this culture

574
00:26:26,160 –> 00:26:29,400
who’s creating media for, you know, a global audience?

575
00:26:29,400 –> 00:26:32,400
Like what is the line between appreciation and appropriation?

576
00:26:32,400 –> 00:26:38,120
I guess I’m back to where I started because like for me again, I’m fine because I appreciate

577
00:26:38,120 –> 00:26:39,120
other cultures.

578
00:26:39,120 –> 00:26:40,680
I don’t mind listening to the music.

579
00:26:40,680 –> 00:26:43,100
I don’t mind, you know, watching the shows.

580
00:26:43,100 –> 00:26:49,280
But now if you catch me out in the street with a straight black wig on and I’m talking

581
00:26:49,280 –> 00:26:52,520
in a certain manner or doing certain things, I’ve crossed the line.

582
00:26:52,520 –> 00:26:54,640
That’s over the top and that’s out of order.

583
00:26:54,640 –> 00:26:56,360
It’s not appreciation at that point.

584
00:26:56,360 –> 00:26:57,480
And I feel the same for them.

585
00:26:57,480 –> 00:27:02,000
I feel like when you start putting cultures, because I’m not even just going to say black,

586
00:27:02,000 –> 00:27:06,440
I’ve seen them do others, Indians and you know, other cultures, when you start putting

587
00:27:06,440 –> 00:27:13,280
on the costumes and the things and the trying to change up your accent, like, yeah, you

588
00:27:13,280 –> 00:27:15,280
you’re doing too much and you’ve gone too far.

589
00:27:15,280 –> 00:27:16,280
Yeah.

590
00:27:16,280 –> 00:27:24,480
God, I forget her name, but she is a Caucasian woman who was the singer for No Doubt.

591
00:27:24,480 –> 00:27:25,920
Oh, Gwen Stefani.

592
00:27:25,920 –> 00:27:27,680
Yes, Gwen Stefani.

593
00:27:27,680 –> 00:27:28,680
She thinks she’s Japanese.

594
00:27:28,680 –> 00:27:29,680
Exactly.

595
00:27:29,680 –> 00:27:30,680
Seriously.

596
00:27:30,680 –> 00:27:32,280
Oh, that’s bad.

597
00:27:32,280 –> 00:27:33,280
Exactly.

598
00:27:33,280 –> 00:27:34,280
If you, if you.

599
00:27:34,280 –> 00:27:35,280
She’s a London ollie.

600
00:27:35,280 –> 00:27:38,280
I mean, maybe not as well.

601
00:27:38,280 –> 00:27:41,280
It’s up there.

602
00:27:41,280 –> 00:27:42,280
Wow.

603
00:27:42,280 –> 00:27:48,720
Because she is like the example for me of like something else.

604
00:27:48,720 –> 00:27:49,720
Don’t be that.

605
00:27:49,720 –> 00:27:51,720
Like she is the litmus test for me.

606
00:27:51,720 –> 00:27:53,720
She’s a canary in the mine.

607
00:27:53,720 –> 00:27:54,720
Oh, something’s wrong.

608
00:27:54,720 –> 00:27:55,720
You’re in the wrong direction.

609
00:27:55,720 –> 00:27:57,840
Pull back, pull back.

610
00:27:57,840 –> 00:28:05,720
Because I feel that if you give credit, if you say, Hey, this is my sound and these are

611
00:28:05,720 –> 00:28:07,280
my influences.

612
00:28:07,280 –> 00:28:08,600
Great.

613
00:28:08,600 –> 00:28:09,960
Because you are giving credit.

614
00:28:09,960 –> 00:28:11,960
You didn’t create that sound.

615
00:28:11,960 –> 00:28:14,760
It’s not like it sprung from you magically.

616
00:28:14,760 –> 00:28:16,560
You were influenced.

617
00:28:16,560 –> 00:28:22,040
But if you then turn around and it becomes this ugly thing, especially since sometimes

618
00:28:22,040 –> 00:28:28,860
it can be just so disrespectful and more often than not, it’s done for laughs.

619
00:28:28,860 –> 00:28:36,880
If you have to get that joke at the expense of some other culture, you’ve done it wrong.

620
00:28:36,880 –> 00:28:41,760
I mean, and I’m not talking about, you know, before somebody who’s easily confused is confused

621
00:28:41,760 –> 00:28:42,760
again.

622
00:28:42,760 –> 00:28:48,080
I’m not talking about you have a comedic character who’s just naturally funny and part of a show

623
00:28:48,080 –> 00:28:50,000
or something like that.

624
00:28:50,000 –> 00:29:00,180
I’m talking about like with Backstreet Rookie, where they had a full on character who supposedly

625
00:29:00,180 –> 00:29:07,600
had dreads, dreadlocks, and he was supposed to be dirty and flies were coming from his

626
00:29:07,600 –> 00:29:11,040
head and he was just so over the top.

627
00:29:11,040 –> 00:29:12,960
Like now he looked like a caveman.

628
00:29:12,960 –> 00:29:13,960
Exactly.

629
00:29:13,960 –> 00:29:15,560
And they darkened his skin.

630
00:29:15,560 –> 00:29:22,440
And then on top of that, they had an African guy roll through his place of employment and

631
00:29:22,440 –> 00:29:29,320
be every stereotype, you know, every fun loving, over the top stereotype.

632
00:29:29,320 –> 00:29:30,320
That’s excessive.

633
00:29:30,320 –> 00:29:34,120
All he was missing was some watermelon and chicken in the other hand.

634
00:29:34,120 –> 00:29:35,120
It was just super.

635
00:29:35,120 –> 00:29:38,960
So that’s why I’m like, if you got to do all of that, if you’re over the top, if the joke

636
00:29:38,960 –> 00:29:44,480
is based on coming for somebody else’s culture, you got it wrong.

637
00:29:44,480 –> 00:29:50,120
And like with Gwen, she doesn’t know who she is even at her age.

638
00:29:50,120 –> 00:29:52,840
And so she steals from other places.

639
00:29:52,840 –> 00:29:54,640
I think it started early.

640
00:29:54,640 –> 00:29:58,920
I think she had like this whole Indian thing she was doing early on.

641
00:29:58,920 –> 00:30:01,840
And then she went full steam.

642
00:30:01,840 –> 00:30:07,240
She like took on the sound, the clothing, everything, everything.

643
00:30:07,240 –> 00:30:13,680
And she surrounded herself with young Japanese women to be kind of her sidekicks.

644
00:30:13,680 –> 00:30:14,960
For years she did this.

645
00:30:14,960 –> 00:30:20,960
And I was like, I thought this was like you doing some form of appreciation because maybe

646
00:30:20,960 –> 00:30:25,520
you were listening to particular music, you did an album, you would give credit and you

647
00:30:25,520 –> 00:30:27,080
keep it moving.

648
00:30:27,080 –> 00:30:34,880
You know, not I’m going to like stay here and continue to fetishize these women.

649
00:30:34,880 –> 00:30:37,100
I was like, what the heck?

650
00:30:37,100 –> 00:30:38,800
So I think that’s the line for me.

651
00:30:38,800 –> 00:30:44,560
Like, I don’t know if Song Rae and I have had those kinds of conversations.

652
00:30:44,560 –> 00:30:50,000
But even with our podcast, even with what we do, I’m careful about that.

653
00:30:50,000 –> 00:30:56,720
I’m trying to see you and I’m trying to enjoy, but I’m not pretending like, I’m not trying

654
00:30:56,720 –> 00:31:00,720
to be so deep in it that it’s like, oh, this is part of my identity.

655
00:31:00,720 –> 00:31:07,880
No, I know I’m a black woman who is ingesting and enjoying someone else’s culture.

656
00:31:07,880 –> 00:31:10,160
And I’m going to give respect for that.

657
00:31:10,160 –> 00:31:14,200
But I’m not going to pretend that like that is mine at all.

658
00:31:14,200 –> 00:31:15,760
I have to draw that line.

659
00:31:15,760 –> 00:31:20,640
I think it’s really hard because people, I mean, listeners may not be fans of Kdrama

660
00:31:20,640 –> 00:31:21,640
specifically.

661
00:31:21,640 –> 00:31:23,800
They may be fans of anime, what have you.

662
00:31:23,800 –> 00:31:28,640
I think it’s really easy to get sucked in as someone who’s been a fan, you know, of

663
00:31:28,640 –> 00:31:30,680
anime since, I mean, my dad watched anime.

664
00:31:30,680 –> 00:31:31,680
So like ever.

665
00:31:31,680 –> 00:31:32,680
Oh, okay.

666
00:31:32,680 –> 00:31:33,680
So you come by it genetically.

667
00:31:33,680 –> 00:31:34,680
Oh, yeah, yeah.

668
00:31:34,680 –> 00:31:36,640
No, I come by it very honest.

669
00:31:36,640 –> 00:31:42,200
But I think what I’ve seen time and time again is when people start getting into whatever

670
00:31:42,200 –> 00:31:45,240
it may be, there’s something that’s so exciting when it’s a new culture.

671
00:31:45,240 –> 00:31:47,080
It’s not the same as getting into Marvel, right?

672
00:31:47,080 –> 00:31:51,560
Like we’re very familiar with the context in which that’s created.

673
00:31:51,560 –> 00:31:56,780
And I think the newness, because it’s new from the culture standpoint, the context standpoint,

674
00:31:56,780 –> 00:32:03,040
new types of stories, people get overzealous and want to just go all in and think that

675
00:32:03,040 –> 00:32:07,280
it’s okay to cross lines or they don’t even notice that the lines are there.

676
00:32:07,280 –> 00:32:11,520
And I always implore people, if you’re going to go all in, you need to learn about the

677
00:32:11,520 –> 00:32:12,520
context.

678
00:32:12,520 –> 00:32:16,920
Like you cannot move further, in my opinion, insofar as like asking questions like, can

679
00:32:16,920 –> 00:32:18,000
I wear Hanbok?

680
00:32:18,000 –> 00:32:19,120
Which you can.

681
00:32:19,120 –> 00:32:20,600
If you’re visiting, they encourage you to wear it.

682
00:32:20,600 –> 00:32:21,600
I’m not saying.

683
00:32:21,600 –> 00:32:22,600
Right.

684
00:32:22,600 –> 00:32:23,600
They encourage you to try it.

685
00:32:23,600 –> 00:32:24,600
So I’m not it’s maybe not the best example.

686
00:32:24,600 –> 00:32:26,760
But like if you’re just sitting on your own wondering, oh, can I wear this?

687
00:32:26,760 –> 00:32:28,080
Like go learn about it first.

688
00:32:28,080 –> 00:32:29,080
Go learn about the culture.

689
00:32:29,080 –> 00:32:31,080
That’s the place you have to come from.

690
00:32:31,080 –> 00:32:35,720
If you’re a real fan, in my opinion of anything, you’re going to want to dig in and learn about

691
00:32:35,720 –> 00:32:36,720
it.

692
00:32:36,720 –> 00:32:37,720
I agree.

693
00:32:37,720 –> 00:32:38,720
Totally.

694
00:32:38,720 –> 00:32:39,720
Exactly.

695
00:32:39,720 –> 00:32:40,720
And that goes on the other side too.

696
00:32:40,720 –> 00:32:43,960
Like you have K-pop artists who get into K-pop because like that’s the, I don’t want to say

697
00:32:43,960 –> 00:32:44,960
easiest.

698
00:32:44,960 –> 00:32:47,480
They definitely don’t have an easy time, but like that’s the easiest way into the music

699
00:32:47,480 –> 00:32:48,480
industry.

700
00:32:48,480 –> 00:32:51,480
But like they do have a passion for like hip hop or R&B and they really want to explore

701
00:32:51,480 –> 00:32:52,480
that.

702
00:32:52,480 –> 00:32:57,040
So I encourage go see what it’s about, how it originated, what’s the story behind it.

703
00:32:57,040 –> 00:33:00,980
And I think that can breathe an authenticity into what you’re doing that people aren’t

704
00:33:00,980 –> 00:33:02,840
going to question you.

705
00:33:02,840 –> 00:33:07,240
And I don’t know that cultural appropriation and appreciation is a hard line.

706
00:33:07,240 –> 00:33:10,240
I think it’s about intent a lot of the time.

707
00:33:10,240 –> 00:33:11,240
Yes.

708
00:33:11,240 –> 00:33:12,240
Yeah.

709
00:33:12,240 –> 00:33:13,240
I know I was watching a show.

710
00:33:13,240 –> 00:33:17,140
I can’t remember what, if it was street man fighter, street man fighter.

711
00:33:17,140 –> 00:33:20,880
And they had an artist from the U S who had come over.

712
00:33:20,880 –> 00:33:23,800
He’s a producer here in America, but he’s Korean.

713
00:33:23,800 –> 00:33:29,720
And they were talking about some form of dancing and he had asked somebody, you know, um, yeah,

714
00:33:29,720 –> 00:33:31,000
so you know, what do you think about that?

715
00:33:31,000 –> 00:33:32,440
Cause this is kind of like the old school.

716
00:33:32,440 –> 00:33:34,400
He said something and the guy was kind of lost.

717
00:33:34,400 –> 00:33:38,000
And I’m going, see problem, you should know the background.

718
00:33:38,000 –> 00:33:40,560
If this is what you’re judging and if this is what you’re doing, you should know the

719
00:33:40,560 –> 00:33:41,560
background.

720
00:33:41,560 –> 00:33:45,000
So he did, he broke it down for them about how the streets of New York and he, you know,

721
00:33:45,000 –> 00:33:49,200
explained the whole line of how that type of dancing came along with hip hop culture.

722
00:33:49,200 –> 00:33:51,800
And it just made me go, see, I appreciate you.

723
00:33:51,800 –> 00:33:55,840
I appreciate you for recognizing we’re not just going to come over here and say, this

724
00:33:55,840 –> 00:33:59,680
is what we’re doing and not be mindful of how things came about.

725
00:33:59,680 –> 00:34:01,640
Like the digging in is important to me.

726
00:34:01,640 –> 00:34:07,080
And even as a fan, I get frustrated when I start talking to other fans and they say things

727
00:34:07,080 –> 00:34:10,420
and I’m just going, did you even read about their history?

728
00:34:10,420 –> 00:34:12,160
Did you find out how they got started?

729
00:34:12,160 –> 00:34:16,280
Like, how is it that you are, you’ve been over here for 20 years and I just joined in

730
00:34:16,280 –> 00:34:18,640
and you don’t even realize they started by doing that.

731
00:34:18,640 –> 00:34:19,640
Yeah.

732
00:34:19,640 –> 00:34:20,640
That’s my thing.

733
00:34:20,640 –> 00:34:22,800
Again, I will note that I’m a big history nerd.

734
00:34:22,800 –> 00:34:24,760
Like I just love learning about history in general.

735
00:34:24,760 –> 00:34:26,660
Like it was my favorite subject in school.

736
00:34:26,660 –> 00:34:31,320
So, you know, that’s just kind of my thing, but I don’t understand how people, you can

737
00:34:31,320 –> 00:34:32,320
be a casual fan.

738
00:34:32,320 –> 00:34:33,320
That’s fine.

739
00:34:33,320 –> 00:34:35,720
If you just want to turn on a TV show and watch it in the beat down, that’s fine.

740
00:34:35,720 –> 00:34:39,120
But if you’re really trying to be in this fandom space, like really engage with it,

741
00:34:39,120 –> 00:34:41,660
I don’t know how you do that without looking at the history.

742
00:34:41,660 –> 00:34:45,160
And that’s why I get upset when people say, oh, these are homogenous countries.

743
00:34:45,160 –> 00:34:46,720
Oh, well, they’re an infantilize.

744
00:34:46,720 –> 00:34:49,080
I’m like, they have been through a lot.

745
00:34:49,080 –> 00:34:53,660
And I think to infantilize them and take away the autonomy is dishonoring the history that

746
00:34:53,660 –> 00:34:59,200
they’ve lived through because they’re people who’ve gone through things that we can’t imagine.

747
00:34:59,200 –> 00:35:01,720
Not that, you know, America has its own history, but so does South Korea.

748
00:35:01,720 –> 00:35:06,140
So does, you know, people in Japan, especially like indigenous people in Japan.

749
00:35:06,140 –> 00:35:10,920
Like there are histories there that are harrowing and really speak to the strength of the people.

750
00:35:10,920 –> 00:35:12,760
And I think the intelligence of the people.

751
00:35:12,760 –> 00:35:13,760
Exactly.

752
00:35:13,760 –> 00:35:16,960
I think the most respectful thing we could do is learn about that history and understand

753
00:35:16,960 –> 00:35:20,280
that they’re fully realized people with fully realized culture.

754
00:35:20,280 –> 00:35:25,140
And just because this is something like, I think it gets skipped over kind of easily.

755
00:35:25,140 –> 00:35:32,320
They have an American base there in South Korea that’s been there for many, many, many, many,

756
00:35:32,320 –> 00:35:33,320
many years.

757
00:35:33,320 –> 00:35:37,800
Oh, we could get lots and lots of, I was about to say with lots and lots of different cultures,

758
00:35:37,800 –> 00:35:41,920
because you even as a matter of fact, didn’t you do a whole, I don’t want to say episode,

759
00:35:41,920 –> 00:35:45,080
but you did a real about it.

760
00:35:45,080 –> 00:35:48,400
And someone else that I know, his name is one Mike podcast.

761
00:35:48,400 –> 00:35:51,240
He does like history and things like that.

762
00:35:51,240 –> 00:35:52,720
He did one that was very similar.

763
00:35:52,720 –> 00:35:57,240
And I was like, wow, I wonder how many people realize if you stopped and looked at the concept

764
00:35:57,240 –> 00:36:01,360
of KFC, Korean fried chicken, and how it really came about.

765
00:36:01,360 –> 00:36:02,360
I don’t think people do.

766
00:36:02,360 –> 00:36:05,480
And even when you research it, talking about that real, like I did a lot of research because

767
00:36:05,480 –> 00:36:06,800
I couldn’t find the source.

768
00:36:06,800 –> 00:36:09,360
Everybody kept saying, oh, this Thanksgiving meal, da da da da da.

769
00:36:09,360 –> 00:36:13,520
And like there is no one source, but it seems like most likely what happened based on accounts.

770
00:36:13,520 –> 00:36:16,240
Like this is most likely how it got introduced.

771
00:36:16,240 –> 00:36:20,920
But it’s interesting to me that this history that is not that far back in our past cannot

772
00:36:20,920 –> 00:36:24,560
be substantiated because it was black people.

773
00:36:24,560 –> 00:36:28,400
Even in Korea’s own history, not to say like we played such a big role in Korea’s history.

774
00:36:28,400 –> 00:36:30,960
I’m not trying to do that cultural imperialism.

775
00:36:30,960 –> 00:36:34,760
But what I’m saying is even where there is this interaction where black people are, that

776
00:36:34,760 –> 00:36:40,360
history isn’t told, which is so universal across the world because white supremacy is

777
00:36:40,360 –> 00:36:42,360
America’s biggest export.

778
00:36:42,360 –> 00:36:43,360
Exactly.

779
00:36:43,360 –> 00:36:44,360
Exactly.

780
00:36:44,360 –> 00:36:51,240
What would you hope to see in the fandom as far as representation goes, maybe from the

781
00:36:51,240 –> 00:36:54,480
people who produce dramas, but also maybe from the fandom itself?

782
00:36:54,480 –> 00:37:01,120
I care less about the representation on screen and I care more about being seen off screen,

783
00:37:01,120 –> 00:37:02,560
like as fans.

784
00:37:02,560 –> 00:37:08,360
So I care about them really exploring, oh, it’s not just like Americans.

785
00:37:08,360 –> 00:37:09,360
Okay.

786
00:37:09,360 –> 00:37:10,460
What types of Americans?

787
00:37:10,460 –> 00:37:13,120
Because black folks are in everything everywhere.

788
00:37:13,120 –> 00:37:14,720
We got a whole black Twitter.

789
00:37:14,720 –> 00:37:19,280
I don’t know why we may already have a whole black Instagram like we have.

790
00:37:19,280 –> 00:37:21,520
We get involved in things.

791
00:37:21,520 –> 00:37:28,840
And I’m on YouTube enough watching reaction videos to see that more and more black people

792
00:37:28,840 –> 00:37:31,840
of all stripes are watching K-dramas.

793
00:37:31,840 –> 00:37:34,960
And so that is super hot for us.

794
00:37:34,960 –> 00:37:38,600
And I’m like, see us here, see what we’re doing.

795
00:37:38,600 –> 00:37:43,480
So if you are going to represent us, realize that you, if you are going to represent us

796
00:37:43,480 –> 00:37:51,400
on screen, recognize that you need to be sensitive, but I’m okay with never seeing another black

797
00:37:51,400 –> 00:37:52,480
face.

798
00:37:52,480 –> 00:37:54,040
And I mean that in every form.

799
00:37:54,040 –> 00:37:56,840
You mean like a black person or black literal blackface?

800
00:37:56,840 –> 00:37:57,840
Both of them.

801
00:37:57,840 –> 00:37:59,320
I mean, no version.

802
00:37:59,320 –> 00:38:05,440
I don’t want to see, it’s like, I want to keep it as fun as it was when I first started

803
00:38:05,440 –> 00:38:06,440
watching.

804
00:38:06,440 –> 00:38:09,320
I want to have an expectation and be disappointed.

805
00:38:09,320 –> 00:38:12,600
So just give me my show and don’t do a Disney.

806
00:38:12,600 –> 00:38:13,600
That’s all I ask.

807
00:38:13,600 –> 00:38:19,000
I think for myself personally, I’m okay with seeing us as long as it’s done correctly.

808
00:38:19,000 –> 00:38:22,480
Again, we’re not the, I can’t think of the drama.

809
00:38:22,480 –> 00:38:24,320
It may have been, it was Penthouse.

810
00:38:24,320 –> 00:38:29,920
Penthouse is also guilty where you have the black people who are the characters and they’re

811
00:38:29,920 –> 00:38:33,760
the drug dealers or they’re the ones with the guns holding somebody captive.

812
00:38:33,760 –> 00:38:35,440
Like please let’s stop that.

813
00:38:35,440 –> 00:38:36,440
That’s America.

814
00:38:36,440 –> 00:38:37,440
Let’s leave that alone.

815
00:38:37,440 –> 00:38:38,720
That’s not even y’all life.

816
00:38:38,720 –> 00:38:39,720
That’s not your story.

817
00:38:39,720 –> 00:38:40,720
Stop telling that.

818
00:38:40,720 –> 00:38:42,040
So that kind of stuff.

819
00:38:42,040 –> 00:38:44,600
No, I don’t want to see that.

820
00:38:44,600 –> 00:38:49,600
But then I think about characters like, or not characters, actors like Jonathan.

821
00:38:49,600 –> 00:38:52,560
He is an actor who’s in South Korea.

822
00:38:52,560 –> 00:38:54,520
He has a sister named Patricia.

823
00:38:54,520 –> 00:38:57,320
Both of them were up for awards because they are out there.

824
00:38:57,320 –> 00:38:58,320
They are doing things.

825
00:38:58,320 –> 00:39:02,880
They, you know, are making a name for themselves and they’re in, I haven’t seen them in dramas,

826
00:39:02,880 –> 00:39:04,800
but I know variety shows.

827
00:39:04,800 –> 00:39:06,720
In which case, you know about Sam, right?

828
00:39:06,720 –> 00:39:07,720
Oh, Sam O’Curie.

829
00:39:07,720 –> 00:39:08,720
Yes.

830
00:39:08,720 –> 00:39:09,720
We can talk about that.

831
00:39:09,720 –> 00:39:10,720
Yeah.

832
00:39:10,720 –> 00:39:13,360
And so like his situation and how he was blackballed because he spoke about things being out of

833
00:39:13,360 –> 00:39:14,840
order and not right.

834
00:39:14,840 –> 00:39:19,640
So like, I know there’s like a fine edge sort, but I feel like it’s worth the fight because

835
00:39:19,640 –> 00:39:21,400
it looks like the world they live in.

836
00:39:21,400 –> 00:39:25,640
If you look at, and I’ve not been to South Korea before anybody comes in, that’s not

837
00:39:25,640 –> 00:39:26,640
true.

838
00:39:26,640 –> 00:39:30,960
I don’t know, but I am going to tell you based upon all of the TV watching I do, they

839
00:39:30,960 –> 00:39:33,800
have shown me there are plenty of foreigners there.

840
00:39:33,800 –> 00:39:38,340
And so if it’s that kind of mix and that kind of meld, yes, why not make representation

841
00:39:38,340 –> 00:39:42,520
of that in your shows when you’re showing things that are realistic and that are the

842
00:39:42,520 –> 00:39:43,520
case.

843
00:39:43,520 –> 00:39:44,520
Just keep it real.

844
00:39:44,520 –> 00:39:45,520
That’s all.

845
00:39:45,520 –> 00:39:46,520
Or let me just say this.

846
00:39:46,520 –> 00:39:47,520
They can do it slowly.

847
00:39:47,520 –> 00:39:48,520
Okay.

848
00:39:48,520 –> 00:39:49,520
Yeah.

849
00:39:49,520 –> 00:39:50,520
Yeah.

850
00:39:50,520 –> 00:39:51,520
There’s no rush.

851
00:39:51,520 –> 00:39:56,240
Because like we watched Startup like a few years ago and I think, I’m not sure what you’re

852
00:39:56,240 –> 00:40:00,160
saying, but I was talking about how he had black art in his office.

853
00:40:00,160 –> 00:40:01,160
I was good with that.

854
00:40:01,160 –> 00:40:02,160
I was like, Ooh.

855
00:40:02,160 –> 00:40:03,960
I was thinking Itaewon class.

856
00:40:03,960 –> 00:40:04,960
Sorry.

857
00:40:04,960 –> 00:40:05,960
Go ahead.

858
00:40:05,960 –> 00:40:06,960
Right.

859
00:40:06,960 –> 00:40:07,960
Okay.

860
00:40:07,960 –> 00:40:08,960
Then we’ll come back to yours.

861
00:40:08,960 –> 00:40:11,960
But like black art on the walls, black African women, I was like, I’ll take it.

862
00:40:11,960 –> 00:40:12,960
I’ll take it.

863
00:40:12,960 –> 00:40:16,460
And then I think there was some show, I don’t know if it was Itaewon where they had like

864
00:40:16,460 –> 00:40:19,960
an African woman who was like the head of the company.

865
00:40:19,960 –> 00:40:21,760
I was like, I’ll take it.

866
00:40:21,760 –> 00:40:23,800
That was search WWW.

867
00:40:23,800 –> 00:40:24,800
Thank you.

868
00:40:24,800 –> 00:40:27,200
Just a smidge, just a smidge in the corner.

869
00:40:27,200 –> 00:40:30,320
Like you don’t have to, please, please just walk on row.

870
00:40:30,320 –> 00:40:34,120
If you’re going to do something, a cameo, do not, they don’t even have to have speaking

871
00:40:34,120 –> 00:40:35,120
lines.

872
00:40:35,120 –> 00:40:39,320
Keep it as simple as possible because I do not want you all to disappoint me.

873
00:40:39,320 –> 00:40:42,080
And then I have to like straight up put a drama down.

874
00:40:42,080 –> 00:40:45,320
So then how did you feel about Itaewon class and Chris Lyons?

875
00:40:45,320 –> 00:40:47,280
That is exactly what I was going to ask.

876
00:40:47,280 –> 00:40:48,920
How did y’all feel about Itaewon class?

877
00:40:48,920 –> 00:40:52,040
For listeners who haven’t seen it, there is a black character in it.

878
00:40:52,040 –> 00:40:56,440
I mean, it’s not the main storyline, but it does deal with the type of racism, like a

879
00:40:56,440 –> 00:41:01,800
black person living in Korea, specifically who is also Korean, my face.

880
00:41:01,800 –> 00:41:04,920
So I’m asking you something else based upon what you just said.

881
00:41:04,920 –> 00:41:06,760
How did you feel about that character?

882
00:41:06,760 –> 00:41:08,160
So I was happy with the character.

883
00:41:08,160 –> 00:41:10,040
I think we even did a show about it.

884
00:41:10,040 –> 00:41:11,040
We did, we did.

885
00:41:11,040 –> 00:41:15,040
But the flip side of it and what they tried to do, which I appreciated because it was

886
00:41:15,040 –> 00:41:16,700
that type of show, right?

887
00:41:16,700 –> 00:41:22,880
They tried to have representation on a number of fronts and so big ups to them and respect.

888
00:41:22,880 –> 00:41:28,440
Wasn’t he the one character who did not own a stake in that company when they like years

889
00:41:28,440 –> 00:41:33,800
later they had grown the business and did all this stuff and he was like running some

890
00:41:33,800 –> 00:41:34,800
of the restaurants.

891
00:41:34,800 –> 00:41:40,000
He was like managing, but he wasn’t at the table with them when they were making decisions.

892
00:41:40,000 –> 00:41:41,000
See I noticed that.

893
00:41:41,000 –> 00:41:43,120
I don’t know if I paid attention to that at the end.

894
00:41:43,120 –> 00:41:44,120
Wow.

895
00:41:44,120 –> 00:41:45,120
I do not remember.

896
00:41:45,120 –> 00:41:46,120
I’m not saying it’s not true.

897
00:41:46,120 –> 00:41:47,120
I have no recollection.

898
00:41:47,120 –> 00:41:48,120
Right, right.

899
00:41:48,120 –> 00:41:49,960
I remember it because I was like, oh, where is he?

900
00:41:49,960 –> 00:41:54,160
Like when they all got to the other side, oh, it’s been five years or whatever the time

901
00:41:54,160 –> 00:41:58,680
jump was and they were all sitting making decisions about the company.

902
00:41:58,680 –> 00:42:01,000
He was every time they did.

903
00:42:01,000 –> 00:42:02,000
He was never there.

904
00:42:02,000 –> 00:42:03,000
Wow.

905
00:42:03,000 –> 00:42:04,000
Never there.

906
00:42:04,000 –> 00:42:05,680
You’re going to make me go back and watch now.

907
00:42:05,680 –> 00:42:06,680
Right, right.

908
00:42:06,680 –> 00:42:08,680
This could be our test, right?

909
00:42:08,680 –> 00:42:10,800
Come back and follow up and be like, hey.

910
00:42:10,800 –> 00:42:11,800
Because you’re correct.

911
00:42:11,800 –> 00:42:15,360
That is a subtle, but so now in this sense though, that’s a small start.

912
00:42:15,360 –> 00:42:16,360
I agree.

913
00:42:16,360 –> 00:42:19,320
I’m not saying it’s right, but it’s a small start.

914
00:42:19,320 –> 00:42:23,000
At least they’re considered because I mean, throughout the whole drama, and I think it

915
00:42:23,000 –> 00:42:28,320
took until the end for her to stop calling him a foreigner, even though he was his character

916
00:42:28,320 –> 00:42:33,560
was South Korean born and it was a, he was a South Korean born biracial person.

917
00:42:33,560 –> 00:42:39,400
Like the real he’s an actor, but he’s also truly South Korean born, speaks no English,

918
00:42:39,400 –> 00:42:42,560
Han Hyun Min and he’s biracial.

919
00:42:42,560 –> 00:42:44,120
He’s the one who was in that show.

920
00:42:44,120 –> 00:42:45,120
So not worth it.

921
00:42:45,120 –> 00:42:46,800
The show that was so not worth it.

922
00:42:46,800 –> 00:42:47,800
Ooh.

923
00:42:47,800 –> 00:42:49,920
I draw, I put it down, sorry.

924
00:42:49,920 –> 00:42:50,920
Ma’am.

925
00:42:50,920 –> 00:42:52,840
I watched it all, but good God almighty.

926
00:42:52,840 –> 00:42:56,880
And I think I watched it all because again, it was a cultural representation and I was

927
00:42:56,880 –> 00:42:59,680
trying to see where they were going, but good Lord, it was a fight.

928
00:42:59,680 –> 00:43:02,440
I was trying, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t do it.

929
00:43:02,440 –> 00:43:03,440
I’m sorry.

930
00:43:03,440 –> 00:43:04,440
I’m sorry, everyone.

931
00:43:04,440 –> 00:43:05,840
I keep thinking like, well, should I go back to it?

932
00:43:05,840 –> 00:43:06,840
But the review seemed to say no.

933
00:43:06,840 –> 00:43:07,840
No, leave that alone.

934
00:43:07,840 –> 00:43:10,840
It was like trying to go back and watch like what?

935
00:43:10,840 –> 00:43:12,280
Saved by the Bell or something.

936
00:43:12,280 –> 00:43:14,840
Man, they had laugh tracks that just threw me off.

937
00:43:14,840 –> 00:43:16,200
Like it was terrible.

938
00:43:16,200 –> 00:43:17,960
That show was not what I thought it was going to be.

939
00:43:17,960 –> 00:43:20,840
It was kind of hard, but Han Hyun Min, I really like him.

940
00:43:20,840 –> 00:43:22,520
I follow him on Instagram.

941
00:43:22,520 –> 00:43:27,380
And that’s what I mean when I say like people go on and on about how it’s a homogenous society,

942
00:43:27,380 –> 00:43:28,720
but how do you explain him?

943
00:43:28,720 –> 00:43:29,720
Like he exists.

944
00:43:29,720 –> 00:43:30,720
He’s a person.

945
00:43:30,720 –> 00:43:31,720
And he’s not alone.

946
00:43:31,720 –> 00:43:32,720
And he’s not alone.

947
00:43:32,720 –> 00:43:36,400
In fact, there’s more than people really want to talk about.

948
00:43:36,400 –> 00:43:40,360
And I personally would like to see, it’s actually my secret wish.

949
00:43:40,360 –> 00:43:41,360
I’m trying to play it cool.

950
00:43:41,360 –> 00:43:42,360
Like, oh, it’d be cool to see.

951
00:43:42,360 –> 00:43:48,560
I just am obsessed with this idea of having a K-drama specifically surrounding a biracial

952
00:43:48,560 –> 00:43:49,560
person.

953
00:43:49,560 –> 00:43:51,040
And I know like it’d be so risky.

954
00:43:51,040 –> 00:43:52,720
You’d have to get a biracial person to write it.

955
00:43:52,720 –> 00:43:55,640
And we’re nowhere near that in that country.

956
00:43:55,640 –> 00:44:00,760
But I would love to see it because I think it’s way more of a common experience.

957
00:44:00,760 –> 00:44:01,760
I think it would do well.

958
00:44:01,760 –> 00:44:06,160
I think global citizens, but Koreans specifically are interested in this stuff.

959
00:44:06,160 –> 00:44:09,440
It’s just that these big, big companies.

960
00:44:09,440 –> 00:44:10,440
And the world push.

961
00:44:10,440 –> 00:44:13,920
It’s like the big brother push of what we’re going to see and what you’re not going to

962
00:44:13,920 –> 00:44:14,920
see.

963
00:44:14,920 –> 00:44:15,920
Exactly.

964
00:44:15,920 –> 00:44:16,920
Exactly.

965
00:44:16,920 –> 00:44:22,520
And you know, that’s why I love technology because I have hope that it will be the great

966
00:44:22,520 –> 00:44:29,560
equalizer when it comes to kind of getting around gatekeepers and companies that underestimate

967
00:44:29,560 –> 00:44:31,800
fans and viewers.

968
00:44:31,800 –> 00:44:36,960
I always hope, okay, somebody is going to be the Issa Rae, right?

969
00:44:36,960 –> 00:44:38,320
The next Issa Rae.

970
00:44:38,320 –> 00:44:42,600
And so maybe there will be somebody who’s like, okay, let me go on and create this thing

971
00:44:42,600 –> 00:44:44,400
because I’m not seeing it.

972
00:44:44,400 –> 00:44:53,040
Like I saw an Australian biracial romance between a Korean guy and a black woman.

973
00:44:53,040 –> 00:44:54,040
It’s on YouTube.

974
00:44:54,040 –> 00:44:55,040
Oh yeah.

975
00:44:55,040 –> 00:44:56,040
That was good.

976
00:44:56,040 –> 00:44:57,040
Right.

977
00:44:57,040 –> 00:44:58,040
Was it love or something like that?

978
00:44:58,040 –> 00:44:59,680
Yes, something like that.

979
00:44:59,680 –> 00:45:07,760
And the only way that happens is because someone decides to independently go on their own.

980
00:45:07,760 –> 00:45:08,760
Right.

981
00:45:08,760 –> 00:45:10,120
I have a hope for that.

982
00:45:10,120 –> 00:45:16,080
I mean, when you mentioned a biracial lead, I thought to myself, oh, that’s who I want

983
00:45:16,080 –> 00:45:20,000
is a lead for the American Nights version of Boys Over Flowers.

984
00:45:20,000 –> 00:45:23,180
I am never watching Boys Over Flowers again.

985
00:45:23,180 –> 00:45:25,600
After F4, that ruined me.

986
00:45:25,600 –> 00:45:31,400
The only exception is if America comes out with their own Boys Over Flowers adaptation,

987
00:45:31,400 –> 00:45:32,400
right?

988
00:45:32,400 –> 00:45:35,520
And in my head, she is always biracial.

989
00:45:35,520 –> 00:45:41,680
She is not just a white girl or a black girl or even like some East Asian in some way.

990
00:45:41,680 –> 00:45:48,160
She’s always biracial because I want her to represent America.

991
00:45:48,160 –> 00:45:50,920
So Jacques and them get busy.

992
00:45:50,920 –> 00:45:55,600
I also have a lot of hope that we might get there through either webtoons or web dramas.

993
00:45:55,600 –> 00:45:59,000
Web dramas are doing a lot of creative stuff and webtoons, you know.

994
00:45:59,000 –> 00:46:00,400
Oh, I know, right?

995
00:46:00,400 –> 00:46:04,640
I saw one not too long ago and I was just like, oh, okay, I might have to check out

996
00:46:04,640 –> 00:46:05,840
some more web dramas.

997
00:46:05,840 –> 00:46:10,880
Yeah, they’re doing real cool stuff and the webtoons that Kdramas are now looking to adapt,

998
00:46:10,880 –> 00:46:12,080
they also do really cool stuff.

999
00:46:12,080 –> 00:46:15,040
Now will they pick up the more controversial ones?

1000
00:46:15,040 –> 00:46:16,280
Maybe not, but maybe in time.

1001
00:46:16,280 –> 00:46:17,280
Who’s to say?

1002
00:46:17,280 –> 00:46:21,600
And I think that’s a quicker path to getting the representation that would be required

1003
00:46:21,600 –> 00:46:24,560
in the writers’ room to be able to tell a story like that.

1004
00:46:24,560 –> 00:46:25,560
Yeah, yeah.

1005
00:46:25,560 –> 00:46:29,800
I guess, okay, we’re getting close to time, but I do have a couple more questions, fun

1006
00:46:29,800 –> 00:46:30,800
questions.

1007
00:46:30,800 –> 00:46:36,600
The first is, what advice would you give to a Black fan coming to dramas in general, completely

1008
00:46:36,600 –> 00:46:37,600
new?

1009
00:46:37,600 –> 00:46:42,040
I do know we talked about dragging our friends, kicking and screaming, but, you know, we’re,

1010
00:46:42,040 –> 00:46:45,440
all three of us are online to some extent and have come across people who are like,

1011
00:46:45,440 –> 00:46:46,800
I’m brand new here.

1012
00:46:46,800 –> 00:46:50,600
And I feel like as a Black fan, there’s more to keep in mind.

1013
00:46:50,600 –> 00:46:51,880
So do you have advice?

1014
00:46:51,880 –> 00:46:58,080
I think for me, because I’m all about an authentic experience, one of the first things, because

1015
00:46:58,080 –> 00:47:03,800
a lot of the people who come over, one of the things they’ll say is, oh, well, is it

1016
00:47:03,800 –> 00:47:04,800
dubbed?

1017
00:47:04,800 –> 00:47:06,280
If it’s not dubbed, I can’t watch it.

1018
00:47:06,280 –> 00:47:09,120
I think you kill and lose a whole lot with that.

1019
00:47:09,120 –> 00:47:15,160
You miss out on nuances, you miss out on cultural references, you miss out on learning about,

1020
00:47:15,160 –> 00:47:20,560
because I think this is more than just, this is my personal opinion.

1021
00:47:20,560 –> 00:47:23,640
I think this is more than just a fun story.

1022
00:47:23,640 –> 00:47:25,200
You’re coming to watch a fun story.

1023
00:47:25,200 –> 00:47:26,200
You’re learning.

1024
00:47:26,200 –> 00:47:29,540
You’re going to learn about another culture, and so the same way, and this is kind of how

1025
00:47:29,540 –> 00:47:35,680
I present it to people that I talk to, the same way we complain about the ways we are

1026
00:47:35,680 –> 00:47:39,800
presented to the world with the way they, you know, put us in certain dramas or you

1027
00:47:39,800 –> 00:47:43,080
look up and we’re always the ones who are in jail or we’re always the ones with the

1028
00:47:43,080 –> 00:47:44,080
gun.

1029
00:47:44,080 –> 00:47:47,840
If that’s not how you want to be presented, look at it authentically and that way you

1030
00:47:47,840 –> 00:47:51,480
learn about them a little differently than just what’s given to you.

1031
00:47:51,480 –> 00:47:56,760
So that’s one of my first, you know, watch it without the dubbing, read, see what they’re

1032
00:47:56,760 –> 00:47:59,920
saying in certain spaces, I think do a better job.

1033
00:47:59,920 –> 00:48:05,280
Like Vicki does a superb, fantastic job of making sure you get references and understand

1034
00:48:05,280 –> 00:48:07,000
why things are.

1035
00:48:07,000 –> 00:48:10,480
Netflix is a beast of business and they’re just going to make sure you get, hey, here’s

1036
00:48:10,480 –> 00:48:11,480
what it says.

1037
00:48:11,480 –> 00:48:14,920
And sometimes you’re lost on what that, that makes sense.

1038
00:48:14,920 –> 00:48:15,920
What does that mean?

1039
00:48:15,920 –> 00:48:16,920
It’s rough.

1040
00:48:16,920 –> 00:48:19,080
So Netflix, and I know it’s, I don’t blame the translators.

1041
00:48:19,080 –> 00:48:24,480
Netflix has very not giving enough resources or time to these poor translators.

1042
00:48:24,480 –> 00:48:28,260
But like, I just kind of feel like that’s one of the things to me.

1043
00:48:28,260 –> 00:48:30,160
If you’re coming over, be mindful.

1044
00:48:30,160 –> 00:48:31,460
This is a whole nother culture.

1045
00:48:31,460 –> 00:48:33,160
They don’t do things the way we do.

1046
00:48:33,160 –> 00:48:37,400
Keep all of those things in mind, be it the music or the dramas.

1047
00:48:37,400 –> 00:48:44,420
One, two, finding fandoms and groups that are like you, like finding people who are

1048
00:48:44,420 –> 00:48:49,120
of the same mindset to help the experience because sometimes depending on your groups

1049
00:48:49,120 –> 00:48:53,360
that you’re in, you might find people who are willing to tell you are willing to make

1050
00:48:53,360 –> 00:48:55,240
things seem like, oh, that’s okay.

1051
00:48:55,240 –> 00:48:56,240
You know, you don’t worry about that.

1052
00:48:56,240 –> 00:48:57,240
Or, oh no, we do.

1053
00:48:57,240 –> 00:48:59,600
And you’re like, yeah, but this seems off.

1054
00:48:59,600 –> 00:49:00,720
This, this not quite right.

1055
00:49:00,720 –> 00:49:04,280
So sometimes I’ll come back to some, something else like, okay, let me ask you this.

1056
00:49:04,280 –> 00:49:08,160
Is it me or, and then we’ll talk it out and hash it out.

1057
00:49:08,160 –> 00:49:09,560
And I’m like, I didn’t think I was wrong.

1058
00:49:09,560 –> 00:49:11,040
Cause that just sounds terrible.

1059
00:49:11,040 –> 00:49:12,600
You shouldn’t be doing this.

1060
00:49:12,600 –> 00:49:16,500
You know, so finding people who are like you to have those conversations when you cross

1061
00:49:16,500 –> 00:49:23,100
those things that are kind of controversial or not always just as easily expressed and

1062
00:49:23,100 –> 00:49:27,680
finding authentic Korean people to talk to because that matters as well.

1063
00:49:27,680 –> 00:49:29,800
So those would be my three pieces of advice.

1064
00:49:29,800 –> 00:49:35,040
Watch it without the dubbing, find folks like you to commune with and meet some true Korean

1065
00:49:35,040 –> 00:49:36,320
people and talk to them as well.

1066
00:49:36,320 –> 00:49:39,000
Cause that’ll be quick to tell you like, we’re not like the K dramas.

1067
00:49:39,000 –> 00:49:41,080
The guys are not like K drama leads.

1068
00:49:41,080 –> 00:49:44,120
No, girls are not like K drama leads, please.

1069
00:49:44,120 –> 00:49:46,480
And everything some Ray said was brilliant.

1070
00:49:46,480 –> 00:49:47,800
I didn’t even think about those things.

1071
00:49:47,800 –> 00:49:50,600
So I’m just going to like ditto that.

1072
00:49:50,600 –> 00:49:56,640
But I’ll say that if you are interested, find something in the genre that you’re interested

1073
00:49:56,640 –> 00:49:58,760
in, don’t just watch anything.

1074
00:49:58,760 –> 00:49:59,760
Thank you.

1075
00:49:59,760 –> 00:50:01,160
And then go, Oh, I don’t like this.

1076
00:50:01,160 –> 00:50:06,960
No, if you’re into crime dramas, when you watch television in your home country, then

1077
00:50:06,960 –> 00:50:10,980
look for crime dramas, look for the appropriate, you know, genre.

1078
00:50:10,980 –> 00:50:15,760
And that’s something that I’ve had to learn trying to like get people hooked on K dramas.

1079
00:50:15,760 –> 00:50:17,400
Like you just can’t mix and match.

1080
00:50:17,400 –> 00:50:20,960
Oh, because I loved extraordinary attorney, woo, you’re going to love it too.

1081
00:50:20,960 –> 00:50:26,640
No, maybe they won’t, you know, and also don’t ride the wave just because it exists.

1082
00:50:26,640 –> 00:50:30,080
Like if you’re not really even into television, it’s okay.

1083
00:50:30,080 –> 00:50:31,080
You don’t have to watch.

1084
00:50:31,080 –> 00:50:33,240
You don’t have to watch any of it.

1085
00:50:33,240 –> 00:50:37,720
Or if you know that you don’t like killing and blood and violence and everybody under

1086
00:50:37,720 –> 00:50:39,120
the sun, watch squid game.

1087
00:50:39,120 –> 00:50:40,640
Doesn’t mean you have to watch squid game.

1088
00:50:40,640 –> 00:50:41,640
Right.

1089
00:50:41,640 –> 00:50:42,640
Exactly.

1090
00:50:42,640 –> 00:50:43,640
Exactly.

1091
00:50:43,640 –> 00:50:48,000
You know, watch something that is comfortable for you because we’ve had folks who really

1092
00:50:48,000 –> 00:50:53,060
want their opinion, really care about what they think about a particular show, for example,

1093
00:50:53,060 –> 00:50:54,480
but they’re not really into TV.

1094
00:50:54,480 –> 00:51:00,960
So it’s like, okay, there’s no shame in, in not jumping into the deep end and drowning

1095
00:51:00,960 –> 00:51:02,640
in K dramas.

1096
00:51:02,640 –> 00:51:04,720
You know, you can start with Netflix.

1097
00:51:04,720 –> 00:51:10,600
There’s nothing wrong with Netflix initially because you may not have committed Vicky money

1098
00:51:10,600 –> 00:51:12,240
because that’s a monthly fee.

1099
00:51:12,240 –> 00:51:13,240
Okay.

1100
00:51:13,240 –> 00:51:15,760
Like they have free ones, but it is right.

1101
00:51:15,760 –> 00:51:18,080
But any of the good ones, you’re going to have to pay some money.

1102
00:51:18,080 –> 00:51:19,080
Come on now.

1103
00:51:19,080 –> 00:51:23,440
You might not be ready for Cocoa Water to like really invest money into it.

1104
00:51:23,440 –> 00:51:24,440
Don’t invest.

1105
00:51:24,440 –> 00:51:25,440
Look for free shows.

1106
00:51:25,440 –> 00:51:29,400
There are plenty of older shows that you can watch, you know, catch it when you catch it.

1107
00:51:29,400 –> 00:51:31,880
You don’t have to be like, I have to watch it every day.

1108
00:51:31,880 –> 00:51:33,000
You don’t have to.

1109
00:51:33,000 –> 00:51:34,720
It’s all up to you.

1110
00:51:34,720 –> 00:51:37,340
It’s all entertainment is all for fun.

1111
00:51:37,340 –> 00:51:40,440
It’s all to like ease the way through life.

1112
00:51:40,440 –> 00:51:43,120
It is not that serious.

1113
00:51:43,120 –> 00:51:45,280
I’m saying this with a whole podcast, right?

1114
00:51:45,280 –> 00:51:47,960
It is not that serious.

1115
00:51:47,960 –> 00:51:48,960
It isn’t.

1116
00:51:48,960 –> 00:51:49,960
It’s supposed to be fun.

1117
00:51:49,960 –> 00:51:50,960
That is also something to remember.

1118
00:51:50,960 –> 00:51:54,720
Because I think people, we were talking earlier about how fans will excuse things.

1119
00:51:54,720 –> 00:51:58,240
I think on the other side, there is this other side of the spectrum where people are going

1120
00:51:58,240 –> 00:52:01,400
to nitpick and shout about everything because that’s what you do online.

1121
00:52:01,400 –> 00:52:03,200
You just get, you’re online to be angry.

1122
00:52:03,200 –> 00:52:04,200
There are those people.

1123
00:52:04,200 –> 00:52:07,160
And to the point where I’m like, okay, but it’s not that you’re wrong.

1124
00:52:07,160 –> 00:52:08,600
It’s just that I’m trying to have fun.

1125
00:52:08,600 –> 00:52:09,600
Do you know what I mean?

1126
00:52:09,600 –> 00:52:10,600
Like there’s a line.

1127
00:52:10,600 –> 00:52:14,080
You got to find it for yourself because it’s supposed to be fun and it doesn’t need to

1128
00:52:14,080 –> 00:52:15,080
be that serious.

1129
00:52:15,080 –> 00:52:19,920
Of course, you know, egregious violations of like representation and stuff for sure.

1130
00:52:19,920 –> 00:52:24,280
But you know, if you don’t personally like a K drama or you know, any drama, it’s cool.

1131
00:52:24,280 –> 00:52:25,760
Try different genre or don’t.

1132
00:52:25,760 –> 00:52:26,760
It’s fine.

1133
00:52:26,760 –> 00:52:27,760
Right.

1134
00:52:27,760 –> 00:52:28,760
None of it is fighting words.

1135
00:52:28,760 –> 00:52:32,960
Like if I don’t like voiceover flowers, don’t lose your mind over it.

1136
00:52:32,960 –> 00:52:33,960
Just move on.

1137
00:52:33,960 –> 00:52:34,960
It’ll be all right.

1138
00:52:34,960 –> 00:52:38,360
You can cringe like I did because I cringe when she said it, but moving on.

1139
00:52:38,360 –> 00:52:42,800
While there’s people, listen, while there are people who cringe because I happen to like

1140
00:52:42,800 –> 00:52:47,760
boys over flowers and I recognize all of the problems and all of what they find wrong.

1141
00:52:47,760 –> 00:52:48,760
I like to move on.

1142
00:52:48,760 –> 00:52:49,760
Next.

1143
00:52:49,760 –> 00:52:50,760
Well, you know what?

1144
00:52:50,760 –> 00:52:51,760
Okay.

1145
00:52:51,760 –> 00:52:54,000
Let’s, let’s talk about it for two seconds because we can’t help it.

1146
00:52:54,000 –> 00:52:57,840
I don’t have a problem with reverse harem romances.

1147
00:52:57,840 –> 00:53:00,920
I read them and I enjoy watching them.

1148
00:53:00,920 –> 00:53:06,720
I don’t, it’s like all the pieces are fine, but F4 in particular coming out of Thailand

1149
00:53:06,720 –> 00:53:11,200
was super brutal and I could not handle it.

1150
00:53:11,200 –> 00:53:16,080
He raised his fist to her at one point and I was like, you crossed the line.

1151
00:53:16,080 –> 00:53:18,280
So like the Korean one was fine.

1152
00:53:18,280 –> 00:53:20,080
The Japanese ones were fine.

1153
00:53:20,080 –> 00:53:22,800
The Japanese one, I think there were a couple.

1154
00:53:22,800 –> 00:53:23,800
There were a couple.

1155
00:53:23,800 –> 00:53:24,800
Yeah.

1156
00:53:24,800 –> 00:53:25,800
The Chinese one.

1157
00:53:25,800 –> 00:53:26,800
Okay.

1158
00:53:26,800 –> 00:53:28,280
That one just pineapple hit it.

1159
00:53:28,280 –> 00:53:30,560
F4 kind of messed me up a little bit.

1160
00:53:30,560 –> 00:53:32,800
I was, yes, pineapple hit it.

1161
00:53:32,800 –> 00:53:37,040
It kind of messed me up a little bit that made me go, made me see all the problems.

1162
00:53:37,040 –> 00:53:38,040
Right.

1163
00:53:38,040 –> 00:53:39,040
Way more.

1164
00:53:39,040 –> 00:53:40,400
It was just way more stark.

1165
00:53:40,400 –> 00:53:44,240
It was brutal on a whole other level and I watched it all the way through, made it to

1166
00:53:44,240 –> 00:53:47,040
the other side, held on to the end.

1167
00:53:47,040 –> 00:53:50,840
And I just think, yeah, is bullying a worthy topic?

1168
00:53:50,840 –> 00:53:51,840
Definitely.

1169
00:53:51,840 –> 00:53:58,160
Do I like seeing a strong female lead who does not give up and holds her stance?

1170
00:53:58,160 –> 00:53:59,160
Most definitely.

1171
00:53:59,160 –> 00:54:00,800
There are many things to like about it.

1172
00:54:00,800 –> 00:54:03,200
The Lord never again will I watch F4.

1173
00:54:03,200 –> 00:54:04,760
I’m just saying.

1174
00:54:04,760 –> 00:54:05,760
Okay.

1175
00:54:05,760 –> 00:54:07,980
My last question, it’s a two parter actually.

1176
00:54:07,980 –> 00:54:10,120
We said, you know, pick things in the genre you like.

1177
00:54:10,120 –> 00:54:13,880
And truly I will say to all my friends and family members who have been like, tell me

1178
00:54:13,880 –> 00:54:14,880
what to watch.

1179
00:54:14,880 –> 00:54:19,560
I do find it difficult because K dramas, dramas in general are not a genre.

1180
00:54:19,560 –> 00:54:20,560
Just like American TV.

1181
00:54:20,560 –> 00:54:21,560
Exactly.

1182
00:54:21,560 –> 00:54:22,560
It’s got a wide range.

1183
00:54:22,560 –> 00:54:23,960
So I can’t tell you what you’re going to like for sure.

1184
00:54:23,960 –> 00:54:28,080
However, we’re still going to do the fun question of if you had, could recommend one drama,

1185
00:54:28,080 –> 00:54:34,000
it doesn’t have to be a K drama, any drama to our listeners, what would it be and why?

1186
00:54:34,000 –> 00:54:37,320
And then the second part is for me, I only watch K dramas.

1187
00:54:37,320 –> 00:54:41,720
For me, if you wanted to recommend any non K drama drama, what would it be?

1188
00:54:41,720 –> 00:54:47,880
So because they’re fresh for me and because I’ve seen the reactions of other people, I

1189
00:54:47,880 –> 00:54:49,040
have to.

1190
00:54:49,040 –> 00:54:57,680
If you’re just looking for family friendly and something calm and fun to watch and harmless,

1191
00:54:57,680 –> 00:55:03,240
extraordinary attorney will lots of people from lots of walks have enjoyed extraordinary

1192
00:55:03,240 –> 00:55:04,380
attorney wound.

1193
00:55:04,380 –> 00:55:06,040
And so that’s the first one.

1194
00:55:06,040 –> 00:55:09,400
The other one is purely for adults.

1195
00:55:09,400 –> 00:55:17,720
And it’s because I’ve also seen that revenge is a common emotion for lots of people across

1196
00:55:17,720 –> 00:55:19,020
different walks of life.

1197
00:55:19,020 –> 00:55:24,640
And that’s why I’m suggesting the glory or you can try my name, but I prefer the glory

1198
00:55:24,640 –> 00:55:30,560
a smidge more than my name and it’s because I’ve seen so many people across different

1199
00:55:30,560 –> 00:55:33,280
walks of life, different races, everything.

1200
00:55:33,280 –> 00:55:35,160
They’ve all enjoyed the glory.

1201
00:55:35,160 –> 00:55:36,520
Go ahead, Zongre.

1202
00:55:36,520 –> 00:55:37,520
All right.

1203
00:55:37,520 –> 00:55:44,080
So for me, the general K drama wreck and my why is going to be, this is an old school

1204
00:55:44,080 –> 00:55:46,000
at this point.

1205
00:55:46,000 –> 00:55:49,000
It is search WWW.

1206
00:55:49,000 –> 00:55:53,920
And the reason why is again, kind of like what something else said, I like strong female

1207
00:55:53,920 –> 00:55:54,920
leads.

1208
00:55:54,920 –> 00:56:00,360
I like that these were, it was a story about three women and they were all very different

1209
00:56:00,360 –> 00:56:02,440
in how they function and what they dealt with.

1210
00:56:02,440 –> 00:56:08,000
But I just liked the way that they interacted and how by the end they had formed the sisterhood

1211
00:56:08,000 –> 00:56:13,200
and the sisterhood was based upon them overcoming different struggles that they had to go through.

1212
00:56:13,200 –> 00:56:19,960
I liked that the drama was semi kind of open to different types of lifestyles and beings

1213
00:56:19,960 –> 00:56:23,720
and not just your traditional, what we usually see in a drama.

1214
00:56:23,720 –> 00:56:24,720
And it was fun.

1215
00:56:24,720 –> 00:56:27,320
Plus I fell in love with Sam Kim there.

1216
00:56:27,320 –> 00:56:31,880
That’s when I first started going, Oh, the music sometimes Sam Kim, do you want to talk

1217
00:56:31,880 –> 00:56:32,880
about Sam Kim?

1218
00:56:32,880 –> 00:56:33,880
Dang.

1219
00:56:33,880 –> 00:56:34,880
We’re at the end of that.

1220
00:56:34,880 –> 00:56:37,000
So I could have, I love Sam Kim so much.

1221
00:56:37,000 –> 00:56:39,080
Well, I’ve met him there and that there.

1222
00:56:39,080 –> 00:56:42,360
He did a song for the OST and I fell in love.

1223
00:56:42,360 –> 00:56:44,360
Little OST prints.

1224
00:56:44,360 –> 00:56:45,480
Yes.

1225
00:56:45,480 –> 00:56:47,640
So that would be my general wreck.

1226
00:56:47,640 –> 00:56:53,280
My wreck personally to you is I’m thinking there’s this Japanese drama, but the sad part

1227
00:56:53,280 –> 00:56:55,800
is I’m looking it up while we’re talking.

1228
00:56:55,800 –> 00:57:01,840
I watched it not too long ago and I even think I might’ve done a podcast about it if I’m

1229
00:57:01,840 –> 00:57:02,840
not mistaken.

1230
00:57:02,840 –> 00:57:06,640
I think I talked to something else about it, but finding it has been my problem.

1231
00:57:06,640 –> 00:57:12,060
It was the one where something else, she works in the office and she bashes people bashes

1232
00:57:12,060 –> 00:57:13,060
when she gets upset.

1233
00:57:13,060 –> 00:57:14,060
She’s getting ready to bash them.

1234
00:57:14,060 –> 00:57:15,060
Oh, age harassment.

1235
00:57:15,060 –> 00:57:16,060
Thank you.

1236
00:57:16,060 –> 00:57:17,060
Age harassment.

1237
00:57:17,060 –> 00:57:19,100
And it is Japanese.

1238
00:57:19,100 –> 00:57:22,560
I know for a fact it was on Vicky, but in my mind I’m going, I saw some Vicky dramas

1239
00:57:22,560 –> 00:57:24,920
being popping up on Netflix, so it might be on Netflix.

1240
00:57:24,920 –> 00:57:28,520
Well, I got that Vicky subscription, so we all good.

1241
00:57:28,520 –> 00:57:29,520
Oh cool, cool, cool.

1242
00:57:29,520 –> 00:57:30,520
Okay.

1243
00:57:30,520 –> 00:57:31,520
Okay.

1244
00:57:31,520 –> 00:57:32,520
I’ve written that down.

1245
00:57:32,520 –> 00:57:33,800
I’m serious about these recommendations because I think it’s time.

1246
00:57:33,800 –> 00:57:39,720
I have some on my watch list, like some Chinese dramas and maybe a couple of Japanese dramas,

1247
00:57:39,720 –> 00:57:41,600
but again, I just never get to them and I’m like, you know what?

1248
00:57:41,600 –> 00:57:42,600
This is my year.

1249
00:57:42,600 –> 00:57:43,600
This is the year.

1250
00:57:43,600 –> 00:57:44,600
Yeah.

1251
00:57:44,600 –> 00:57:48,440
For this one, I really just liked it because she came into an office workplace that was

1252
00:57:48,440 –> 00:57:50,120
very sexist.

1253
00:57:50,120 –> 00:57:56,200
They did things a specific way, how the women had to dress, how they had to deal with stuff.

1254
00:57:56,200 –> 00:58:00,200
And she was cute, bubbly and people liked her because she was cute and bubbly and the

1255
00:58:00,200 –> 00:58:02,120
guys would come on and just say stuff.

1256
00:58:02,120 –> 00:58:07,080
And so after a while, I think she had got her feel and her thing was when she got ready

1257
00:58:07,080 –> 00:58:10,680
to check somebody about their behavior, what they were doing or how they were.

1258
00:58:10,680 –> 00:58:12,120
They even talked about ageism.

1259
00:58:12,120 –> 00:58:14,000
They talked about sexism.

1260
00:58:14,000 –> 00:58:18,220
They talked about where you have your leaders who are abusing their power in so many words.

1261
00:58:18,220 –> 00:58:21,080
She would bang her fist and then she would tell them off.

1262
00:58:21,080 –> 00:58:24,280
Now she wrapped it up really nicely, but she would tell them off.

1263
00:58:24,280 –> 00:58:26,160
She would get them told about what they were doing wrong.

1264
00:58:26,160 –> 00:58:30,440
And I just loved it because I was like for it to be an older J-drama, how she handled

1265
00:58:30,440 –> 00:58:31,440
business back then.

1266
00:58:31,440 –> 00:58:32,440
I love it.

1267
00:58:32,440 –> 00:58:33,880
I’m excited to watch it.

1268
00:58:33,880 –> 00:58:34,880
Okay.

1269
00:58:34,880 –> 00:58:39,920
So let me say this before, let me preface my recommendations by saying this.

1270
00:58:39,920 –> 00:58:44,460
Initially, yes, K-dramas grab at you right away.

1271
00:58:44,460 –> 00:58:49,640
And so you feel like that’s where you veer off to because there’s so many of them.

1272
00:58:49,640 –> 00:58:56,100
But eventually, please find your way to more Japanese and Chinese because, and other in

1273
00:58:56,100 –> 00:59:02,480
general, because there’s so much of a television out there and you get more culture, different

1274
00:59:02,480 –> 00:59:03,480
culture.

1275
00:59:03,480 –> 00:59:09,200
Like when you see how Japanese people kind of respond to things, in some ways, Japanese

1276
00:59:09,200 –> 00:59:13,140
talk the way Nigerians talk, very guttural, very fast.

1277
00:59:13,140 –> 00:59:14,140
And it’s fun to watch.

1278
00:59:14,140 –> 00:59:16,200
It’s great for comedy and it’s fun to watch.

1279
00:59:16,200 –> 00:59:22,560
So I would say if you’re looking Japanese, the full-time wife escapist, that’s on Vicky

1280
00:59:22,560 –> 00:59:28,400
because it was just cute and the husband was crazy and they had cartoons and it was just

1281
00:59:28,400 –> 00:59:29,400
super cute.

1282
00:59:29,400 –> 00:59:34,640
Chinese, and I like this show a smidge more than the full-time wife escapist, but the

1283
00:59:34,640 –> 00:59:40,440
Chinese drama, Meet Yourself, because it is so meditative.

1284
00:59:40,440 –> 00:59:44,920
It’s a lot of episodes, but it moves at a nice pace.

1285
00:59:44,920 –> 00:59:51,160
It’s a slow burn romance, basically about a woman who loses a friend to illness and

1286
00:59:51,160 –> 00:59:55,080
she basically quits her job where she’d been overworked.

1287
00:59:55,080 –> 01:00:00,680
And she moves to this village and it’s only supposed to be a vacation, right?

1288
01:00:00,680 –> 01:00:04,220
It’s only supposed to be for a couple of months while she figures things out.

1289
01:00:04,220 –> 01:00:07,640
And slowly but surely she gets involved in the village and village life.

1290
01:00:07,640 –> 01:00:12,480
But it’s like the kind of drama I watched every day and it just calmed me.

1291
01:00:12,480 –> 01:00:15,080
I didn’t have to watch, I didn’t have to binge watch.

1292
01:00:15,080 –> 01:00:21,900
I just caught one new episode every day and I caught it on YouTube and it was restful.

1293
01:00:21,900 –> 01:00:24,480
And I think maybe it’s on Vicky also now.

1294
01:00:24,480 –> 01:00:29,220
So if you have a chance to catch Meet Yourself, it is well worth it.

1295
01:00:29,220 –> 01:00:31,440
She’s not crazy or silly.

1296
01:00:31,440 –> 01:00:34,140
I hate those kinds of female leads.

1297
01:00:34,140 –> 01:00:37,580
She’s capable, she’s smart, she’s thoughtful.

1298
01:00:37,580 –> 01:00:42,600
And the male love interest is goofy a little bit, but he’s warm-hearted.

1299
01:00:42,600 –> 01:00:43,600
The villagers are great.

1300
01:00:43,600 –> 01:00:44,600
Give it a try.

1301
01:00:44,600 –> 01:00:45,600
I’m excited.

1302
01:00:45,600 –> 01:00:46,960
I am going to give them a try.

1303
01:00:46,960 –> 01:00:51,120
The problem is people are coming to this podcast like, yay, there’s a new podcast, but there’s

1304
01:00:51,120 –> 01:00:52,680
two things happening in my life.

1305
01:00:52,680 –> 01:00:56,500
One, at the time that this is airing, Legend of Zelda Tears of the Kingdom will have freshly

1306
01:00:56,500 –> 01:00:57,500
been out.

1307
01:00:57,500 –> 01:00:58,500
So I will be busy with that.

1308
01:00:58,500 –> 01:01:00,680
And I’m like back on my drama game.

1309
01:01:00,680 –> 01:01:02,440
So like, will there be a podcast?

1310
01:01:02,440 –> 01:01:04,600
I do worry about myself a little bit.

1311
01:01:04,600 –> 01:01:06,800
Yeah, I’m super excited about this game.

1312
01:01:06,800 –> 01:01:08,280
It looks so, so, so, so good.

1313
01:01:08,280 –> 01:01:11,880
Honestly, I had a slew of questions we didn’t even get to because the conversation was just

1314
01:01:11,880 –> 01:01:12,880
so good.

1315
01:01:12,880 –> 01:01:14,080
I enjoyed this.

1316
01:01:14,080 –> 01:01:15,240
I did as well.

1317
01:01:15,240 –> 01:01:17,680
And I’m happy to come back some other time.

1318
01:01:17,680 –> 01:01:20,200
I would love to have y’all back for sure.

1319
01:01:20,200 –> 01:01:23,120
We’ll have to do it because truly there are so many questions.

1320
01:01:23,120 –> 01:01:28,040
Maybe what we could do is I will watch these dramas and become more worldly in the dramas

1321
01:01:28,040 –> 01:01:29,660
that I watched instead of just K-dramas.

1322
01:01:29,660 –> 01:01:33,560
And we can have y’all back to talk about other dramas and other tropes or something like

1323
01:01:33,560 –> 01:01:34,560
that.

1324
01:01:34,560 –> 01:01:36,420
But thanks, Song Rae, and something else so much for coming on.

1325
01:01:36,420 –> 01:01:37,680
It was truly a blast.

1326
01:01:37,680 –> 01:01:39,080
We appreciate the invite.

1327
01:01:39,080 –> 01:01:40,320
Oh, for sure.

1328
01:01:40,320 –> 01:01:41,840
Where can the good folks find you?

1329
01:01:41,840 –> 01:01:46,400
You can catch us on every sort of social media that’s out there.

1330
01:01:46,400 –> 01:01:53,440
But you can especially get us by going to our website, blackgirlsoul.com.

1331
01:01:53,440 –> 01:01:56,560
Soul is spelled S-E-O-U-L.

1332
01:01:56,560 –> 01:02:02,360
And you will always find Song Rae on social media ready to talk to you about all the dramas

1333
01:02:02,360 –> 01:02:03,360
that she’s watching.

1334
01:02:03,360 –> 01:02:04,360
Oh yeah.

1335
01:02:04,360 –> 01:02:07,360
We do have not just a blog, not just a podcast.

1336
01:02:07,360 –> 01:02:09,080
We do have a store too.

1337
01:02:09,080 –> 01:02:16,160
Even if you just go to the first page of blackgirlsoul.com, you’ll be able to see our latest blog entries,

1338
01:02:16,160 –> 01:02:20,760
our latest podcast episode, and you’ll be able to click on a link to our store.

1339
01:02:20,760 –> 01:02:21,760
All right.

1340
01:02:21,760 –> 01:02:23,760
And thank you all so much for listening.

1341
01:02:23,760 –> 01:02:26,880
If you made it this far, I want to know what your favorite drama is.

1342
01:02:26,880 –> 01:02:27,880
Does it have to be a K-drama?

1343
01:02:27,880 –> 01:02:28,880
Who knows?

1344
01:02:28,880 –> 01:02:32,320
Maybe I’ll get more recommendations for C-dramas, J-dramas, you name it.

1345
01:02:32,320 –> 01:02:36,640
You can let me know at culturexpodcast on Twitter or Instagram.

1346
01:02:36,640 –> 01:03:06,280
And until next time, keep it chill and keep it nerdy.

May 8 2023

[2] Creating Community in the Name of the Moon

[2] Creating Community in the Name of the Moon feat. Victoria Johnson of Sailor Moon Fan Club

Listen on...

Watch on YouTube

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In this episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews host of Sailor Moon Fan Club, Victoria Johnson. They discuss creating a podcast and fostering community around pop-culture, nerdy origins, Sam Okyere, Victoria’s favorite K-dramas, fanning responsibly, and Barbie! What was your first fandom?

Things discussed in this episode:

Anime/Animation: Sailor Moon, One Piece, Dragon Ball franchise, Avatar the Last Airbender
Famous folks: Megan thee Stallion, Michael B. Jordan, Sam Okyere, Saweetie, Serena
K-dramas: Victoria’s Top 5(?) – Boys Over Flowers, My Lovely Sam Soon, City Hunter, My Love From Another Star, Descendants of the Sun
K-pop: DEAN (딘), Rain (비)
Movies: Godzilla, kung fu movies, Shaw Brothers Studio, Bruce Lee, Green Hornet
Saga
Barbie
Lisa Frank
Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon
gender dynamics in anime
Traveling to Seoul, Busan, and Tokyo
fanning responsibly

Guest

This episode’s guest, is Victoria Johnson aka Sailor Victoria! Victoria is a podcast host, pop-culture journalist, and lover of Korean dramas! You can find her in these places:

Podcast – Site | Instagram | Twitter
Victoria – Instagram | Twitter

Find us online:

Website: culturexpodcast.com
Patreon: patreon.com/culturebyculture
Instagram: instagram.com/culturexpodcast/
Twitter: twitter.com/culturexpodcast

Credits

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: DeliaTwitter: @deliaistyping, Instagram: @deliaistyping, Website: deliaistyping.com

About Culture by Culture

Culture by Culture is a multidimensional podcast exploration into Black and Asian pop-cultural ties. Part sociology, history, and pop-culture podcast, it covers everything from deep-dives into our favorite gateway media, interviews with experts to help guide us through our historical and current cultural connections, and conversations with fellow nerds digging into our cultural identities and our pop-cultural interests.Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

1
00:00:00,000 –> 00:00:04,620
D: Hey there! Welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi-dimensional exploration of Black and

2
00:00:04,620 –> 00:00:10,440
Asian pop cultural ties. I’m your Sailor Guardian host, Delia, and today I am so excited

3
00:00:10,440 –> 00:00:15,760
to be joined by the host of Sailor Moon Fan Club, Victoria Johnson, aka Sailor Victoria.

4
00:00:15,760 –> 00:00:17,480
Go ahead and introduce yourself, Victoria.

5
00:00:17,480 –> 00:00:22,800
V: Hi! I’m so excited to be here. I’m Victoria, Sailor Victoria, however you want to say it,

6
00:00:22,800 –> 00:00:27,600
host of the Sailor Moon Fan Club, pop culture journalist, and lover of Korean dramas, which

7
00:00:27,600 –> 00:00:30,880
hopefully you’ll get to talk a little bit about today.

8
00:00:30,880 –> 00:00:35,160
D: I would love to talk to you about K-dramas. We will get to it. I literally just before

9
00:00:35,160 –> 00:00:38,280
this was in the middle of watching a K-drama and I was like, okay, we have to pause, we

10
00:00:38,280 –> 00:00:40,480
have to get ready, we have to record the podcast.

11
00:00:40,480 –> 00:00:42,760
V: So addictive. It’s so addictive.

12
00:00:42,760 –> 00:00:46,420
D: It’s such a problem. I think I tweeted about it the other day. I’m in the middle of launching

13
00:00:46,420 –> 00:00:51,680
this podcast. I have a big, huge, long to-do list and my brain is like, well, what if we

14
00:00:51,680 –> 00:00:54,320
just started a K-drama to binge right now?

15
00:00:54,320 –> 00:00:56,360
V: Yeah, same.

16
00:00:56,360 –> 00:01:00,120
D: That’s a problem, I think, with getting into creating as a nerd is that you’re still a

17
00:01:00,120 –> 00:01:05,680
nerd. So you’re still going to try and make time for those things and the balance is real

18
00:01:05,680 –> 00:01:06,680
difficult.

19
00:01:06,680 –> 00:01:10,520
V: Yeah. Like you want to consume the media, but also like you need to like create content

20
00:01:10,520 –> 00:01:14,560
too and do all the other stuff you need to do. But you still want to like go to the cons

21
00:01:14,560 –> 00:01:19,440
and enjoy yourself or like watch stuff and read stuff. It’s so much to keep up with.

22
00:01:19,440 –> 00:01:23,440
D: It’s so much to keep up with. There’s only 24 hours in the day and it’s just not enough.

23
00:01:23,440 –> 00:01:28,880
I used to think if I ever was able to make this a bigger part of my hobby or work part

24
00:01:28,880 –> 00:01:32,840
time, there’d be so much more time. But the way I think creative brains work is you just

25
00:01:32,840 –> 00:01:33,840
fill the time.

26
00:01:33,840 –> 00:01:39,320
V: Yep. Yeah. It’s like, oh, I have some spare hours. Let me watch a few episodes of One

27
00:01:39,320 –> 00:01:41,320
Piece or whatever.

28
00:01:41,320 –> 00:01:46,720
D: Exactly. Exactly. So I wanted to know, actually, you kind of mentioned some stuff already.

29
00:01:46,720 –> 00:01:49,640
Everybody knows that you’re into Sailor Moon and we’re going to talk about that too because

30
00:01:49,640 –> 00:01:54,760
selfishly I need to talk about Sailor Moon. It’s a need. But I do want to know just more

31
00:01:54,760 –> 00:01:59,840
generally what fandom spaces you currently occupy. Maybe some that people aren’t as familiar

32
00:01:59,840 –> 00:02:00,840
with in your work.

33
00:02:00,840 –> 00:02:05,480
V: Yeah. And I always want to talk about Sailor Moon. So I’m excited for that too. But obviously,

34
00:02:05,480 –> 00:02:10,120
yeah, Sailor Moon, I have the entire podcast dedicated to the show. I’m a big One Piece

35
00:02:10,120 –> 00:02:15,200
fan too. I’ve been watching since 2010, I think.

36
00:02:15,200 –> 00:02:16,200
D: Whoa.

37
00:02:16,200 –> 00:02:21,760
V: Yeah. So that’s a big part of my life. What else? What else? What else? I mean, I love

38
00:02:21,760 –> 00:02:26,080
K-dramas as a whole. I’ve kind of fallen off in the past few years, but there was a time

39
00:02:26,080 –> 00:02:31,200
where I was deep into the K-drama life and even went to South Korea.

40
00:02:31,200 –> 00:02:34,920
D: I would love, love, love, love to go.

41
00:02:34,920 –> 00:02:40,000
V: Yeah. It was pretty cool. I also love Saga, which is a comic book with Image Comics. It’s

42
00:02:40,000 –> 00:02:44,440
really cool. I feel like I’ll stop there because I’m going to just keep naming stuff. And I’m

43
00:02:44,440 –> 00:02:47,880
going to put it just there. I feel like those are the top ones though.

44
00:02:47,880 –> 00:02:52,080
D: That is so interesting. I, you know, people say One Piece is so good. My dad, he really

45
00:02:52,080 –> 00:02:57,760
enjoyed One Piece, but there’s so many episodes. So when you said you watched One Piece, I

46
00:02:57,760 –> 00:03:01,760
was like, oh, when did you start? But I guess you’ve just been kind of, you’ve had the time.

47
00:03:01,760 –> 00:03:06,080
V: Yeah. I mean, and it’s been off and on since then. Like, so I didn’t like catch up in 2010.

48
00:03:06,080 –> 00:03:10,280
So I watched up until like maybe 60 something then. And then like later on, I got up to

49
00:03:10,280 –> 00:03:14,920
like a hundred and something. And then I stopped for a few years and I benched up until like

50
00:03:14,920 –> 00:03:21,760
600, like one year. And then stopped for a few years and came back and actually just

51
00:03:21,760 –> 00:03:24,920
caught up on New Year’s Eve last year.

52
00:03:24,920 –> 00:03:31,240
D: Wow. I have so much respect for people who put in that kind of time, I would love to. It

53
00:03:31,240 –> 00:03:36,680
really seems like a show that’s up my alley, but I just don’t know when I will put in that

54
00:03:36,680 –> 00:03:39,760
kind of time. But who knows? Stay tuned, I suppose. Everybody.

55
00:03:39,760 –> 00:03:46,240
V: I’ve chipped at it little by little over time for me, 10 years time. But, D: You know, if you

56
00:03:46,240 –> 00:03:51,120
really have the dedication, what would you say was your first fandom?

57
00:03:51,120 –> 00:03:56,480
V: Ooh, I want to say actually probably because I actually went through my old stuff at my

58
00:03:56,480 –> 00:04:01,200
mom’s house recently. So I’ve been really– this is a perfect time to ask because I think

59
00:04:01,200 –> 00:04:05,980
originally I would say like Sarah Boone Dragon Ball Z. But even before that, I think Barbie

60
00:04:05,980 –> 00:04:07,920
and Lisa Frank, if those count.

61
00:04:07,920 –> 00:04:12,880
D: Oh my word. I love, oh, I should have, I almost wore it, but I have these Lisa Frank crew

62
00:04:12,880 –> 00:04:19,280
necks and they’re covered in Lisa Frank print. I love them. I love Lisa Frank. That is so

63
00:04:19,280 –> 00:04:26,720
interesting to me because I feel like aesthetically that is still very much magical girl aesthetics

64
00:04:26,720 –> 00:04:29,480
kind of like it feels like a precursor.

65
00:04:29,480 –> 00:04:32,920
V: Definitely. Yeah. And it’s so funny to me because I remember being younger and being

66
00:04:32,920 –> 00:04:37,280
like, I don’t like pink. Pink is for girls. And I’m looking at all this stuff I was like

67
00:04:37,280 –> 00:04:41,160
playing with or like that I liked and it was all very extremely girly. And I’m like, I

68
00:04:41,160 –> 00:04:46,920
don’t know who I thought I was fooling. Clearly just myself. But– D: I definitely was that way.

69
00:04:46,920 –> 00:04:52,000
I was very, I very much got into not like other girls phase or whatever. But when I

70
00:04:52,000 –> 00:04:59,580
actually looked back to my actual childhood girl. V: Yeah, exactly. It’s like, sure, Jan.

71
00:04:59,580 –> 00:05:04,520
Very much so. I used to love the Barbie computer games, played all of them. Super excited for

72
00:05:04,520 –> 00:05:08,520
this movie. I love computer games in general, just growing up. I feel like that might be

73
00:05:08,520 –> 00:05:12,360
a first fandom. But yeah, definitely Barbie and Lisa Frank. I had all the stickers. D: What

74
00:05:12,360 –> 00:05:16,240
do you think was the biggest influence on your interest in those fandoms? Alternatively,

75
00:05:16,240 –> 00:05:18,920
what influenced you to move away from that aesthetic?

76
00:05:18,920 –> 00:05:23,680
V: Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, I think partially it’s I had older cousins, like you

77
00:05:23,680 –> 00:05:27,440
might say older, they’re like one or two years older. They were definitely like into it.

78
00:05:27,440 –> 00:05:31,080
I think like we all used to hang out and I don’t know who got into it first. But I feel

79
00:05:31,080 –> 00:05:34,360
like there was definitely some like we’re influencing each other things kind of going

80
00:05:34,360 –> 00:05:39,080
on here. And then also just like, I think with Lisa Frank, obviously, just the colors

81
00:05:39,080 –> 00:05:44,160
with Barbie, it was, I guess something that like felt like it was geared towards me, but

82
00:05:44,160 –> 00:05:49,240
also something that was fun and interesting and like challenging. And then with Sailor

83
00:05:49,240 –> 00:05:53,680
Moon and Dragon Ball Z, I just got into it, you know, by watching it on Toonami, my brother

84
00:05:53,680 –> 00:05:56,800
actually but Sailor Moon, he just came out of his room one time, like there’s a show

85
00:05:56,800 –> 00:05:59,640
coming on you might like, because he’s grew up watching anime, because he grew up in the

86
00:05:59,640 –> 00:06:05,320
80s. D: Oh, very cool. V: Yeah. And so I was just like, okay, I’ll watch it. And then I ended

87
00:06:05,320 –> 00:06:08,760
up loving it, of course, and then like stayed on and watched Dragon Ball Z, which came on

88
00:06:08,760 –> 00:06:14,320
afterwards on Toonami. And I think for Barbie, I think I just kind of grew out of it a little

89
00:06:14,320 –> 00:06:19,880
bit just like once I reached maybe 12 or 10 somewhere around there, maybe even earlier,

90
00:06:19,880 –> 00:06:24,480
where you just kind of stop playing with Barbies or stop knowing people who play with Barbies,

91
00:06:24,480 –> 00:06:29,440
moving away from computer games in general, moving to like more console based stuff. So

92
00:06:29,440 –> 00:06:33,920
I’m sure if like Barbie had like games on the console, I probably would have kept with

93
00:06:33,920 –> 00:06:39,040
it. I’m sure they do. But if like I knew about it or had them– D: decent games rather V: decent

94
00:06:39,040 –> 00:06:42,520
games, maybe that’s a better term, like, but like if a Barbie game was released for the

95
00:06:42,520 –> 00:06:47,620
Switch like today, I would get it and I got the Bratz game, D: Man, I feel like the 90s,

96
00:06:47,620 –> 00:06:52,240
for better or worse, were so good at merge tie ins and really just having when there

97
00:06:52,240 –> 00:06:56,200
was a movie or big pop culture event, you were going to get the toys, you’re going to

98
00:06:56,200 –> 00:06:59,660
get the video games, you were going to get all of it. You saying if there was a Barbie

99
00:06:59,660 –> 00:07:04,080
Switch game, I’m thinking the Barbie movies coming out now would be the time that would

100
00:07:04,080 –> 00:07:09,680
be amazing. It would be perfect. And I’m like, why isn’t this a thing? Because the demographic

101
00:07:09,680 –> 00:07:15,160
is there. Like I’m here. Like I will play it. I will buy it. Day one. V: The movie’s been

102
00:07:15,160 –> 00:07:19,080
kind of like reigniting that love and making me remember that I was like, oh, yeah, this

103
00:07:19,080 –> 00:07:23,280
was a thing. Like I did like have Barbie dolls and played all the video games and watched

104
00:07:23,280 –> 00:07:27,480
the movies. So I’m like, huh, give me something now.

105
00:07:27,480 –> 00:07:32,600
D: I think it’s interesting that you really hooked into Sailor Moon because for me, the reason

106
00:07:32,600 –> 00:07:36,940
I waited so long to watch it was because I went through the unfortunate I’m not like

107
00:07:36,940 –> 00:07:42,800
other girls phase. So I was like, oh, I’m going to watch Inuyasha and Dragon Ball and

108
00:07:42,800 –> 00:07:46,960
all these other animes because again, not like other girls. And I just thought of Sailor

109
00:07:46,960 –> 00:07:51,840
Moon as this girly show. Not that I didn’t have friends who watched it. I did. I just

110
00:07:51,840 –> 00:07:56,800
refused for whatever reason. Very much to be clear, blocking my own blessings to be

111
00:07:56,800 –> 00:08:03,720
sure. Regrets. I have them. So I just wonder how that show still reached you and resonated

112
00:08:03,720 –> 00:08:07,840
with you, even though you had maybe moved kind of past that time in your life where

113
00:08:07,840 –> 00:08:10,040
other media like that wasn’t resonating with you.

114
00:08:10,040 –> 00:08:14,000
V: Yeah, I don’t know. Honestly, I mean, I guess part of it was maybe because my brother was

115
00:08:14,000 –> 00:08:18,600
suggesting it. So maybe I just didn’t code it as like, this is something for girls. And

116
00:08:18,600 –> 00:08:22,800
also, I grew up where like, even though in my head, I was like, oh, pink girls, I want

117
00:08:22,800 –> 00:08:27,880
to be different. I like grew up within a family very fortunately where men, girls and boys

118
00:08:27,880 –> 00:08:32,080
or whatever would like do both things. Like all my girl cousins are playing video games,

119
00:08:32,080 –> 00:08:36,280
you know, and so I never really learned like this is for guys and this is for girls. Not

120
00:08:36,280 –> 00:08:40,480
in that way, at least. I mean, obviously, like there’s always some kind of gender brainwashing

121
00:08:40,480 –> 00:08:46,680
going on. But at least with video games and nerd stuff, I never got that as much. And

122
00:08:46,680 –> 00:08:51,080
I think I think having my brother maybe suggest it maybe maybe not think it was like, this

123
00:08:51,080 –> 00:08:53,880
is a girl thing. Maybe I don’t know. That’s something I think of.

124
00:08:53,880 –> 00:08:59,840
D: I’m very curious about your family and growing up being into anime and nerdy things, because

125
00:08:59,840 –> 00:09:05,560
it sounds like potentially and you can explain your family might be very similar to mine.

126
00:09:05,560 –> 00:09:10,600
Growing up, and I talked about this in the last podcast episode, my family was very supportive

127
00:09:10,600 –> 00:09:15,360
of nerd pursuits, if you will, like we all played video games with my mom, my dad, me.

128
00:09:15,360 –> 00:09:20,120
And it was my dad that got me into anime and video games to begin with. So I was wondering

129
00:09:20,120 –> 00:09:23,560
how your family viewed your interests. And it sounds like they might have had the same

130
00:09:23,560 –> 00:09:25,520
interest or at least were supportive.

131
00:09:25,520 –> 00:09:31,280
V: So I would say more supportive for sure. Like my parents are not into any nerd things, really.

132
00:09:31,280 –> 00:09:35,360
I mean, now it’s funny, they’re kind of getting into stuff like my mom watches like the Netflix

133
00:09:35,360 –> 00:09:42,260
Marvel shows now. And I’m like, who are you? And then my dad, like he watched The Last

134
00:09:42,260 –> 00:09:47,280
of Us or like stuff like that. But like overall, like they’re not video games, comic books

135
00:09:47,280 –> 00:09:51,840
people. But my brothers are, I think up until like we were teenagers, we’re all kind of

136
00:09:51,840 –> 00:09:56,880
like video games, comic books, all into that. Yeah, I definitely grew up with like an environment

137
00:09:56,880 –> 00:10:00,040
that was more supportive than not. But it wasn’t until like I’m older, like my mom would

138
00:10:00,040 –> 00:10:03,800
be like, you’re still into that? You’re still into this? And not in any like negative way,

139
00:10:03,800 –> 00:10:09,360
but just like genuinely confused or like, why? Like you still watch Sailor Moon? And

140
00:10:09,360 –> 00:10:13,320
now she gets it because she’s she knows about the podcast and she’s like, okay, but for

141
00:10:13,320 –> 00:10:16,640
a while she’s like, you still like Sailor Moon? Because I would be asking for something

142
00:10:16,640 –> 00:10:20,560
Sailor Moon. I think I’ve asked for something Sailor Moon for like each birthday and Christmas

143
00:10:20,560 –> 00:10:22,160
since I was like six.

144
00:10:22,160 –> 00:10:28,200
D: That is very relatable. For a while, that’s how it was with Harry Potter and me, but we

145
00:10:28,200 –> 00:10:36,120
have broken up. So not as much anymore. But at this point, yeah, my family is all very

146
00:10:36,120 –> 00:10:40,440
nerdy. They’ve always been very nerdy. And it feels like as time goes on, they get even

147
00:10:40,440 –> 00:10:45,480
more nerdy, like in ways that I couldn’t predict. But I think it’s very, I don’t know, rare.

148
00:10:45,480 –> 00:10:49,400
I mean, the reason I created this podcast is because I’m interested in these intersections.

149
00:10:49,400 –> 00:10:53,040
But I know a lot of my friends growing up, especially my friends that were minorities,

150
00:10:53,040 –> 00:10:58,480
black, Latinx, they didn’t really have that. They very much were not understood for their

151
00:10:58,480 –> 00:11:03,920
interest at home and had a real hard time. And I feel like our experience is more rare.

152
00:11:03,920 –> 00:11:08,120
V: Yeah, it definitely is. It definitely is. I think especially for like people who cosplay,

153
00:11:08,120 –> 00:11:12,680
I wonder how my parents would have reacted if I wanted to cosplay like as a teenager.

154
00:11:12,680 –> 00:11:16,640
Yeah, I think there is, especially with anime specifically, I think there’s like, oh, what

155
00:11:16,640 –> 00:11:21,280
are you watching? Why is this person half naked?

156
00:11:21,280 –> 00:11:22,280
D: Why do the girls look like that?

157
00:11:22,280 –> 00:11:30,480
V: Right. Is that a demon? What? So yeah, I think we’re definitely a rarity to have like family

158
00:11:30,480 –> 00:11:31,480
that like gets it.

159
00:11:31,480 –> 00:11:36,880
D: I agree. What do you think it was about Sailor Moon specifically, but anime in general that

160
00:11:36,880 –> 00:11:39,200
resonated so much with you growing up?

161
00:11:39,200 –> 00:11:44,720
V: I think it was the first time I watched something that was animated that actually had like a

162
00:11:44,720 –> 00:11:49,400
continuous storyline. So like with you know, I was watching probably like Doug at the time

163
00:11:49,400 –> 00:11:54,320
or Hey Arnold, you know, those shows are great. But like, you know, you could watch them whenever.

164
00:11:54,320 –> 00:11:58,280
But with Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon, it was like you had to tune in every day. It’s

165
00:11:58,280 –> 00:12:02,600
like, no, it was gonna happen next. And like, they were so good with cliffhangers. And it

166
00:12:02,600 –> 00:12:06,880
just really made you just want to tune in and keep watching. And I think that’s what

167
00:12:06,880 –> 00:12:11,560
took me along with just like both of them having really interesting storylines. I usually

168
00:12:11,560 –> 00:12:15,240
talk about them both because I was really watching both at the same time. But Sailor

169
00:12:15,240 –> 00:12:18,480
Moon is the one that stuck with me more. And probably because it went away and Dragon Ball

170
00:12:18,480 –> 00:12:22,280
kind of stayed around. And I was like, I can watch you anytime.

171
00:12:22,280 –> 00:12:27,040
D: Yeah, Sailor Moon was much more elusive for a while. I feel like it was. V: Yeah. After it

172
00:12:27,040 –> 00:12:31,480
like went off Toonami, like you couldn’t really find it anywhere. And I ended up finding them

173
00:12:31,480 –> 00:12:36,360
finding DVDs on like some random site a few years later and buying them. So I had them

174
00:12:36,360 –> 00:12:40,680
to rewatch then but it was really hard to find for a little bit. And then it just kind

175
00:12:40,680 –> 00:12:43,320
of like disappeared. Like you’re gonna find any merch for a little while.

176
00:12:43,320 –> 00:12:47,080
D: I definitely feel like that’s on sexism to be honest, because like I said, growing up

177
00:12:47,080 –> 00:12:53,400
in anime nerd spaces, it very much was as popular among the people as Dragon Ball, but

178
00:12:53,400 –> 00:12:58,920
the demographics were different. So I very much feel like that contributed to how elusive

179
00:12:58,920 –> 00:13:00,200
it was.

180
00:13:00,200 –> 00:13:05,000
V: I completely agree. Because yeah, it makes it makes no sense. Because most guys I talked

181
00:13:05,000 –> 00:13:08,360
to were like, yeah, I was watching Sailor Moon too. Yeah, I just didn’t talk about it.

182
00:13:08,360 –> 00:13:12,240
You know, and a lot of girls I know were watching it. And it’s like, it was getting views. It

183
00:13:12,240 –> 00:13:14,680
was definitely one of the most popular shows.

184
00:13:14,680 –> 00:13:20,760
D: But exactly. But it’s taken the anime landscape so long in general to catch up to the demographics

185
00:13:20,760 –> 00:13:25,080
that are interested in it. Not only talking about the gender demographics, but also people

186
00:13:25,080 –> 00:13:30,440
of many backgrounds watch anime and I think it took them a while to realize that I guess.

187
00:13:30,440 –> 00:13:31,440
V: Yeah, yeah, somehow.

188
00:13:31,440 –> 00:13:40,040
D: Somehow, somehow it took them so long. So strange. I guess that’s a good segue into

189
00:13:40,040 –> 00:13:44,680
I was wondering about Sailor Moon fan club and the catalyst for creating it.

190
00:13:44,680 –> 00:13:49,880
V: Yeah, so it was kind of, that is a good like segue because it was kind of because of that

191
00:13:49,880 –> 00:13:54,920
reason where I felt like there was so much conversation around shonen anime or manga

192
00:13:54,920 –> 00:13:59,560
that I was just like, there’s so much magical girl stuff out there that no one I don’t hear

193
00:13:59,560 –> 00:14:03,000
a lot of people talk about. Like people talk about it, but there’s no, not a lot of podcasts

194
00:14:03,000 –> 00:14:06,120
about it. There’s not a lot of discussion around it. And like, there are like hundreds

195
00:14:06,120 –> 00:14:10,600
of magical girls shows. And so I originally wanted to do a magical girls show to kind

196
00:14:10,600 –> 00:14:13,960
of like combat that a little bit. And then I realized that’s gonna be a lot of work.

197
00:14:13,960 –> 00:14:19,480
I have a full time job. I’m tired most of the day. Anyways. And then there were a lot

198
00:14:19,480 –> 00:14:23,720
of shows that I hadn’t seen. So I’ve seen some, but if I wanted to do it right, and

199
00:14:23,720 –> 00:14:27,560
like wanted to do each episode on a different magical girls show, like that was just going

200
00:14:27,560 –> 00:14:31,360
to take a lot more time and energy. So I had to get real with myself and then realize that

201
00:14:31,360 –> 00:14:34,880
like, I could talk about Sailor Moon all day. And so that’s when I decided to narrow the

202
00:14:34,880 –> 00:14:38,680
focus and just make it a little more niche and do a Sailor Moon podcast, especially because

203
00:14:38,680 –> 00:14:42,560
a lot of the guests that we’re finding were more Sailor Moon fans rather than magical

204
00:14:42,560 –> 00:14:45,880
girls fans. That’s when I decided to narrow it to Sailor Moon. And it just kind of came

205
00:14:45,880 –> 00:14:48,680
together from there. And like everything was like clicking when I was trying to do the

206
00:14:48,680 –> 00:14:51,720
magical girls show, I was like, all right, what are we going to talk about? What are

207
00:14:51,720 –> 00:14:55,400
the segments? What’s it going to be about? Like, who can I get? And then when I decided

208
00:14:55,400 –> 00:14:58,520
to do Sailor Moon, I was like, oh, I’ll call it Sailor Moon fan club. And at the end, we’ll

209
00:14:58,520 –> 00:15:02,320
do like, everyone can create a Sailor Moon says phrase at the end and all this stuff.

210
00:15:02,320 –> 00:15:06,360
And it just like flowed and I was like, okay, this is this is the idea. And it’s just been

211
00:15:06,360 –> 00:15:10,040
really great so far. Like, it’s something I didn’t realize that like was needed in the

212
00:15:10,040 –> 00:15:14,240
Sailor Moon fan base. A lot of people have credited with like kind of creating a community

213
00:15:14,240 –> 00:15:19,440
for like, especially Black Sailor Moon fans. D: Absolutely. V: It’s been really great. Just things

214
00:15:19,440 –> 00:15:22,920
I wasn’t expecting to come from it have come and I’m just like, this is so awesome. D: Before

215
00:15:22,920 –> 00:15:27,480
I even started watching Sailor Moon, like it was the thing that was on my to do list.

216
00:15:27,480 –> 00:15:32,160
I heard of your podcast before that, I think, because Connie, who we both know, yes, was

217
00:15:32,160 –> 00:15:38,000
on and I was just blown away a because your graphics look so cute. They’re so cute. I

218
00:15:38,000 –> 00:15:43,820
just need you to know that. But also, I just you could very clearly see this community

219
00:15:43,820 –> 00:15:47,480
around it. Like you, you can tell when there are people who are just putting podcasts out,

220
00:15:47,480 –> 00:15:50,240
which you know, nothing, nothing wrong with that creators got create, we’re all doing

221
00:15:50,240 –> 00:15:54,320
our best. But you can tell when somebody successfully built a community just with like how they’re

222
00:15:54,320 –> 00:15:58,400
engaging and the engagement they’re getting back. And I was just kind of taken aback and

223
00:15:58,400 –> 00:16:06,180
impressed by how well you had, whether on purpose or not, or by, you know, happy happenstance,

224
00:16:06,180 –> 00:16:10,160
you know, seen a need and were able to fill it because clearly people came out of the

225
00:16:10,160 –> 00:16:14,120
woodwork. That’s how it appears. People came out of the woodwork like, yes, this is the

226
00:16:14,120 –> 00:16:19,120
space I’ve needed. V: Yeah, no, it’s total happenstance because like, I was just like, I just want

227
00:16:19,120 –> 00:16:23,560
to talk about Sailor Moon with cool people. And people are like, Oh my god, we didn’t

228
00:16:23,560 –> 00:16:28,040
know we needed this or we needed this. And thank you so much for like making it. Has

229
00:16:28,040 –> 00:16:33,360
there been any challenges with curating that space and creating that community around the

230
00:16:33,360 –> 00:16:44,240
podcast? I think I mean, well, I launched in March 2020. D: Oh, no. V: Yeah, so I came up

231
00:16:44,240 –> 00:16:47,480
with the idea in like January 2020. And I was like, I’m gonna launch in March because

232
00:16:47,480 –> 00:16:51,480
that’s when Naoko Takoji’s birthday is and like the Sailor Moon anniversary is I was

233
00:16:51,480 –> 00:16:58,400
like, perfect. Perfect. D: What could go wrong? V: Right? What could possibly go wrong in March

234
00:16:58,400 –> 00:17:03,520
2020? And of course, the pandemic happens. And so I wanted to do like a whole like little

235
00:17:03,520 –> 00:17:08,280
launch party at a bar and like all these things. D: That would have been so cute. V: Yeah. And you know, I had ideas for

236
00:17:08,280 –> 00:17:12,440
like meetups and none of that happened. But luckily, I mean, this year, things seem to

237
00:17:12,440 –> 00:17:17,080
be kind of opening up people are feeling more comfortable going out. And you know, we have

238
00:17:17,080 –> 00:17:21,840
masks so quickly and we have vaccines. So planning, hopefully some stuff this year and

239
00:17:21,840 –> 00:17:25,600
maybe next year and trying to get my toes wet. D: It would really make things difficult

240
00:17:25,600 –> 00:17:30,240
because you know, you I don’t know if people realize how much planning goes into a podcast,

241
00:17:30,240 –> 00:17:34,080
you really build up what it’s going to look like what it’s gonna what the trajectory is

242
00:17:34,080 –> 00:17:38,400
going to be. And so I can’t imagine having you know, so much hinging on like in person

243
00:17:38,400 –> 00:17:44,400
stuff and that just being no, you can’t do it. Sorry. V: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the pandemic

244
00:17:44,400 –> 00:17:48,720
was horrible is horrible. But I think in some ways, it did work to my advantage. Because

245
00:17:48,720 –> 00:17:51,840
I think that’s a large part why I was able to get like, Saweetie on the show is because

246
00:17:51,840 –> 00:17:55,640
everyone was home, there were things like that, that I guess did help. But at the same

247
00:17:55,640 –> 00:18:01,360
time, it was like, boo. I think the other thing, I mean, gets to be real real is, you

248
00:18:01,360 –> 00:18:07,640
know, just funding. I think I’ve gotten one ad on the show before. And I just like, come

249
00:18:07,640 –> 00:18:12,960
on, guys, it’s a great show. Give me sponsorship. D: It’s it’s it’s hard out here being a solo

250
00:18:12,960 –> 00:18:19,600
creator, you gotta you gotta just give yourself space. V: So I appreciate that. I always need

251
00:18:19,600 –> 00:18:24,360
to hear that. So thanks. D: Absolutely. I mean, we’re doing what we can. And like we were

252
00:18:24,360 –> 00:18:30,520
talking about earlier, there’s so much you want to do as a nerd. Also, you want to take

253
00:18:30,520 –> 00:18:34,800
in the content, you want to experience the things in real life just for you. And then

254
00:18:34,800 –> 00:18:40,200
there’s the creating content side of it. So there’s only 24 hours. So we got to give ourselves

255
00:18:40,200 –> 00:18:45,040
grace because we’re all doing our best. V: That is so true. And then on top of like cooking

256
00:18:45,040 –> 00:18:52,240
and cleaning and being an adult, D: Being an adult! V: and seeing friends, if you can. D: I guess

257
00:18:52,240 –> 00:18:56,120
I was curious, do you ever feel limited by the space you’ve carved out in fandom? Because

258
00:18:56,120 –> 00:19:00,640
I know you said you imagine doing a podcast that had a broader focus, but that comes with

259
00:19:00,640 –> 00:19:05,080
its own challenges. But I do wonder, have you ever felt limited by the scope of what

260
00:19:05,080 –> 00:19:09,560
you’ve curated for yourself? And how do you deal with that, if you have? V: Sometimes only

261
00:19:09,560 –> 00:19:13,000
because like there’s been certain guests or some people I would just love to talk to,

262
00:19:13,000 –> 00:19:17,400
like thinking like Megan Thee Stallion, who’s like a huge anime fan, but she’s not necessarily

263
00:19:17,400 –> 00:19:22,920
a Sailor Moon fan. And so I’m like, how can I get her on my show? Because like it just,

264
00:19:22,920 –> 00:19:25,920
or like even like a Michael B. Jordan, I’m like, I’d love to have Michael B. Jordan on

265
00:19:25,920 –> 00:19:30,200
the show, but like he’s, he’s never watched Sailor Moon as far as I know. So like times

266
00:19:30,200 –> 00:19:34,000
like that, I feel a little like I wish I would have done something maybe a little more general,

267
00:19:34,000 –> 00:19:37,400
but then I’m like, but then I wouldn’t have the specialty of like the niche of Sailor

268
00:19:37,400 –> 00:19:40,840
Moon or even like Serena Williams, I think is a Sailor Moon, or not a Sailor Moon fan,

269
00:19:40,840 –> 00:19:46,000
an anime fan. And she loves Avatar The Last Airbender. : How did I not know this? V: She even

270
00:19:46,000 –> 00:19:49,840
voiced a character in Korra, like a small role, a very small role. D: You know what, I

271
00:19:49,840 –> 00:19:55,520
do think I knew that. I haven’t seen Korra. It’s on my to do list everyone. It is. I have

272
00:19:55,520 –> 00:20:02,800
friends who yell at me regularly. V: No judgment from me. D: But I love Avatar The Last Airbender.

273
00:20:02,800 –> 00:20:06,960
Like definitely top fandom. I have a lot of art behind me that’s Avatar The Last Airbender

274
00:20:06,960 –> 00:20:11,640
love. I didn’t know that. See, that would be a dream. V: It would be, but I’m like, I can’t

275
00:20:11,640 –> 00:20:17,800
get her on my mind. So even if I, even if I could, even if she said yes. D: Just maybe

276
00:20:17,800 –> 00:20:23,360
do a little temporary spin off. I’ve been low key thinking of that, of like one episode

277
00:20:23,360 –> 00:20:29,600
spin off just so I could get one person on. I can do Avatar The Last Airbender fan club

278
00:20:29,600 –> 00:20:34,000
one episode. D: We do what we got to do is content creators. V: Listen, because I’m like, I just want to talk

279
00:20:34,000 –> 00:20:39,400
to Serena Williams. That’s all I want. D: I would help promo the heck out of that because that

280
00:20:39,400 –> 00:20:44,480
would be so good to listen to. V: Thank you. Yeah. I mean, fingers crossed. D: We did talk

281
00:20:44,480 –> 00:20:49,360
about in the lead up to the podcast, we’re kind of getting into the K-drama of it all,

282
00:20:49,360 –> 00:20:54,960
but in general, you did express in your own interest in Black and Asian pop cultural ties,

283
00:20:54,960 –> 00:20:59,080
which I said before we started recording, a lot of people since I announced the podcast

284
00:20:59,080 –> 00:21:05,240
have expressed that they too have noticed these pop-cultural ties. And I was so surprised

285
00:21:05,240 –> 00:21:09,800
because I’ve always had this interest and haven’t been able to really find outlets for

286
00:21:09,800 –> 00:21:14,240
it. So I was like, I guess I just got to make a podcast about it because that’s what I do,

287
00:21:14,240 –> 00:21:18,560
I guess. But I’m so curious as I’m hearing people tell their stories, like, where did

288
00:21:18,560 –> 00:21:23,320
you first notice these connections and what made you interested in them?

289
00:21:23,320 –> 00:21:27,960
V: Ooh, that is a great question. And I feel like I should know this. Maybe it was around

290
00:21:27,960 –> 00:21:35,400
the time when DEAN came out and also Rain in general, and visiting a lot of Korean coffee

291
00:21:35,400 –> 00:21:44,560
shops actually. So this is like circa grad school to air for me. So like 2013, 2014.

292
00:21:44,560 –> 00:21:47,720
And so I would go to coffee shops a lot to get work done. And I went to grad school near

293
00:21:47,720 –> 00:21:53,060
Korea town and I was into Korean dramas already. So whatever. But I just remember people talking

294
00:21:53,060 –> 00:21:57,920
about how like 90s R&B inspired DEAN and then thinking about like, I think Rain had like

295
00:21:57,920 –> 00:22:04,840
Black women in his, or Black woman in one of his music videos. And I just remember like

296
00:22:04,840 –> 00:22:09,480
when I got into K-dramas and K-pop, a lot of the content creators I was finding were

297
00:22:09,480 –> 00:22:17,480
Black as well. And I just didn’t see other groups of people diving into the Korean culture

298
00:22:17,480 –> 00:22:21,600
as much as Black people at the time, it felt like. Because I was just like, man, like we

299
00:22:21,600 –> 00:22:24,600
are really in this. Like it was just like every content creator I knew, like they’re

300
00:22:24,600 –> 00:22:28,600
actually making groups, they’re moving to Korea. And then like on the other hand, like

301
00:22:28,600 –> 00:22:33,320
seeing like Korean pop artists being inspired by like 90s Black R&B artists and you know,

302
00:22:33,320 –> 00:22:37,680
like bringing Black people into their music videos or like being inspired by like music,

303
00:22:37,680 –> 00:22:42,080
I guess mostly. Or even culture, because I mean, the slang and everything, but and rap.

304
00:22:42,080 –> 00:22:47,640
D: Yes, very much the rap of it all. That’s so interesting to me because I have like, I’ve

305
00:22:47,640 –> 00:22:52,120
noticed similar when I started getting into K-dramas and things like that, it was a lot

306
00:22:52,120 –> 00:22:56,320
of like Black people I knew were like, oh my gosh, same. And I think the first person

307
00:22:56,320 –> 00:23:01,800
who ever recommended K-dramas to me back in high school was Mexican. And they were hard

308
00:23:01,800 –> 00:23:06,120
to find at the time. It’s not until being really into K-dramas that I interacted with

309
00:23:06,120 –> 00:23:10,480
a lot of white fans. So I feel like it’s one of the first fandom spaces where I entered.

310
00:23:10,480 –> 00:23:14,220
And immediately it wasn’t just like a white fandom space, you know. And that’s so interesting

311
00:23:14,220 –> 00:23:18,040
to me because I’ve fandomed them a lot of things. And that has not happened.

312
00:23:18,040 –> 00:23:22,520
V: That’s a good point. Yeah, I think that was the other thing. Like, I’m realizing now after

313
00:23:22,520 –> 00:23:26,680
you said it, that it was probably the first fandom I went into that didn’t feel overwhelmingly

314
00:23:26,680 –> 00:23:33,400
white. And a Bangladeshi girl introduced me to K-dramas. And so it’s like, I really, it’s

315
00:23:33,400 –> 00:23:36,640
not that like, I don’t think there are white people interested in K-dramas. I know that’s

316
00:23:36,640 –> 00:23:41,880
a fact, but I don’t know anyone.

317
00:23:41,880 –> 00:23:45,000
D: And I don’t think I would have been able to speak to it exactly until you mentioned it.

318
00:23:45,000 –> 00:23:50,280
Like, that is so true. I watched so many YouTubers, some who aren’t active anymore, who were into

319
00:23:50,280 –> 00:23:54,840
K-pop, K-dramas. They were all Black for the most part. Again, my friends and people in

320
00:23:54,840 –> 00:23:59,480
real life. And I just think that’s really cool. I do know people who don’t necessarily are

321
00:23:59,480 –> 00:24:03,560
into those things and are kind of viewing it, you know, top down from the outside, don’t

322
00:24:03,560 –> 00:24:08,440
really understand. They see the problematic aspects of the cultural exchange, which do

323
00:24:08,440 –> 00:24:12,560
happen. Let’s not pretend that they don’t. But I just think it’s so compelling that there’s

324
00:24:12,560 –> 00:24:16,160
a lot of points of connection that are positive. It was already fascinating to me, but it’s

325
00:24:16,160 –> 00:24:19,000
so fascinating to me that I’m not the only one that’s noticed.

326
00:24:19,000 –> 00:24:20,760
V: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah.

327
00:24:20,760 –> 00:24:26,420
D: You said it was back 2013, 2014, that you were really into K-dramas. This was like peak

328
00:24:26,420 –> 00:24:32,280
time for you. What was your, just out of curiosity, your first K-drama and maybe your favorite

329
00:24:32,280 –> 00:24:33,280
K-drama?

330
00:24:33,280 –> 00:24:39,960
V: Yeah. So, I mean, well, I got into K-dramas in 2010. And then like up until like 2016,

331
00:24:39,960 –> 00:24:45,120
I would say like that was like a, I probably was only almost solely watching K-dramas with

332
00:24:45,120 –> 00:24:49,360
maybe like Scandal and some other shows. But my first one was Boys Over Flowers, which

333
00:24:49,360 –> 00:24:53,880
is most people’s. Yeah. So that’s the one. And it’s funny because Sailor Moon actually

334
00:24:53,880 –> 00:24:57,400
got me into K-dramas in one way or another because-

335
00:24:57,400 –> 00:24:58,840
D: Oh please say more.

336
00:24:58,840 –> 00:25:03,160
V: So of course, like Sailor Moon fans, I’ve watched PGSM, which is a live action Sailor

337
00:25:03,160 –> 00:25:08,400
Moon Japanese show. And then that made me want to watch more J-dramas. I watched Nobito

338
00:25:08,400 –> 00:25:12,600
Produce, which is pretty good. And then I was telling one of my friends about it,

339
00:25:12,600 –> 00:25:15,800
a Bangladeshi woman. I went to college, I was actually roommates with her my freshman

340
00:25:15,800 –> 00:25:19,880
year of college. And I was like, oh, you should really watch the show because we’re both like

341
00:25:19,880 –> 00:25:25,160
into international stuff and like just like open-minded people. And she was just like,

342
00:25:25,160 –> 00:25:29,320
oh, if you like J-dramas, you should check out Korean dramas. And I was like, what is

343
00:25:29,320 –> 00:25:33,840
that? Tell me more. She’s like, check out Boys Over Flowers. Literally watched, started

344
00:25:33,840 –> 00:25:39,040
watching it that day. It was like a Friday, I think. And she went home to like, she lived

345
00:25:39,040 –> 00:25:43,600
in Long Island and I binge-ed it that entire night. I probably went to sleep and finished

346
00:25:43,600 –> 00:25:48,640
the show like within 24 hours, maybe, well maybe not 24 hours, but then 48 hours. I was

347
00:25:48,640 –> 00:25:53,240
done with that show and I was like, what else is out there? And that just like started a

348
00:25:53,240 –> 00:25:56,680
whole lifelong journey of K-drama love.

349
00:25:56,680 –> 00:26:02,600
D: I love that. I’m way more new to the K-drama space. I think 2019 maybe? I fell hard and

350
00:26:02,600 –> 00:26:12,520
fast. That seems to be the very constant in K-drama fans. It’s hard and fast. I think

351
00:26:12,520 –> 00:26:17,160
it’s interesting you started at J-dramas. I haven’t watched any other Asian dramas,

352
00:26:17,160 –> 00:26:23,020
mostly because I started learning Korean and I was like, well, K-dramas count as studying.

353
00:26:23,020 –> 00:26:30,100
It doesn’t for the record, but that’s how I reconciled it in my head. So even though

354
00:26:30,100 –> 00:26:34,280
I have interests, like I have a list of potential J-dramas, C-dramas that I want to watch, I

355
00:26:34,280 –> 00:26:38,200
just haven’t because I’m like, it’s not really giving me anything, which is a problematic

356
00:26:38,200 –> 00:26:42,900
way to think, but I do want to. And maybe I’m hoping like the podcast will push me out

357
00:26:42,900 –> 00:26:47,800
of my K-drama comfort zone, but I am firmly there. Do you have a favorite drama that you’ve

358
00:26:47,800 –> 00:26:48,800
seen?

359
00:26:48,800 –> 00:26:53,000
V: Oh gosh, there’s so many. The Boys Over Flowers stayed as a favorite. I love Lee Minho in general,

360
00:26:53,000 –> 00:26:58,020
so I watch mostly anything he’s in. Goblin, because I also love Gong Yoo and I will watch

361
00:26:58,020 –> 00:26:59,020
anything he’s in.

362
00:26:59,020 –> 00:27:00,020
D: Same.

363
00:27:00,020 –> 00:27:06,740
Which I’m so happy to see him like getting some shine over in the US now.

364
00:27:06,740 –> 00:27:09,780
D: So deserved. I, that man.

365
00:27:09,780 –> 00:27:11,460
V: Yeah, he is very attractive.

366
00:27:11,460 –> 00:27:13,020
D: He’s a beautiful man.

367
00:27:13,020 –> 00:27:20,020
V: He is. Yeah. Oh, okay. Here we go. I do have a list. So my top 5 K-dramas are, well, at

368
00:27:20,020 –> 00:27:25,840
least top four. Boys Over Flowers, My Lovely Sam Soon, City Hunter, My Love From Another

369
00:27:25,840 –> 00:27:29,540
Star, and then I have Descendants of the Sun here, which I remember really liking, but

370
00:27:29,540 –> 00:27:33,260
I’m like, damn, is it, did I like it enough to put in my top five? Maybe I did.

371
00:27:33,260 –> 00:27:37,700
V: I don’t think I’ve seen Descendants of the Sun. I have seen My Love From Another Star.

372
00:27:37,700 –> 00:27:41,700
That was a cute one. Yeah, I haven’t decided if I want to see Descendants of the Sun or

373
00:27:41,700 –> 00:27:45,660
not. It’s on my list, but every time I look at it, I don’t know. I guess I’m confused

374
00:27:45,660 –> 00:27:48,620
about the vibes, but I’ll watch it one day.

375
00:27:48,620 –> 00:27:49,620
V: It was definitely cute.

376
00:27:49,620 –> 00:27:51,420
D: My watch list is very long.

377
00:27:51,420 –> 00:27:52,420
V: Yeah.

378
00:27:52,420 –> 00:27:56,660
D: So listeners, just know if you recommend dramas to me, I will add them to the list, but the

379
00:27:56,660 –> 00:27:57,660
list is so long.

380
00:27:57,660 –> 00:28:03,740
V: No, that’s me too. I feel my friend will recommend me K-dramas. So I got her into K-dramas after

381
00:28:03,740 –> 00:28:09,060
I got into K-dramas. She’s the one I ended up going to South Korea with. And she still

382
00:28:09,060 –> 00:28:12,260
watches them and she’ll be like, you need to watch this one. It’s so good. And I’m like,

383
00:28:12,260 –> 00:28:16,380
yeah, I’m gonna get to it. And I never do. And I feel so bad. She’ll be like done with

384
00:28:16,380 –> 00:28:21,500
it in like three days. She’s like, did you watch it? I’m like, no, I didn’t. I’m sorry.

385
00:28:21,500 –> 00:28:24,340
I will eventually, I promise. Just not.

386
00:28:24,340 –> 00:28:25,540
D: There’s so much.

387
00:28:25,540 –> 00:28:29,820
V: It’s like between now and like three years from now, I will watch it.

388
00:28:29,820 –> 00:28:31,620
D: But I will watch it. That’s the thing.

389
00:28:31,620 –> 00:28:37,100
V: Right. It just may take me up to three years or more. But eventually I’ll get to it and

390
00:28:37,100 –> 00:28:40,460
I’ll call her back. Sometimes I do watch it and I’ll call her back. I’m like, oh, I watch

391
00:28:40,460 –> 00:28:44,780
that show. She’s like, what show? I’m like, you know, the one you recommended me. She’s

392
00:28:44,780 –> 00:28:48,900
like, I finished that one months ago. What are you talking about?

393
00:28:48,900 –> 00:28:51,700
D: Girl, don’t come to me with all that now.

394
00:28:51,700 –> 00:28:54,420
V: I don’t even remember these characters.

395
00:28:54,420 –> 00:28:59,460
D: I forgot you said you went to South Korea. What was that like? I’ve heard great things,

396
00:28:59,460 –> 00:29:04,260
but also whenever I’ve expressed to people who aren’t really into like the pop culture

397
00:29:04,260 –> 00:29:08,140
of it all, like, oh, I want to go to South Korea. And always the refrain is, aren’t they

398
00:29:08,140 –> 00:29:12,220
racist over there? V: Yeah. D: Which I’d like to respond with people racist over here.

399
00:29:12,220 –> 00:29:15,020
V: True. Everywhere, really.

400
00:29:15,020 –> 00:29:17,540
D: Right. Really.

401
00:29:17,540 –> 00:29:22,620
V: It was, I enjoyed it. So before we went to South Korea, I went to Tokyo and I feel like

402
00:29:22,620 –> 00:29:27,260
I really liked Tokyo. So South Korea was kind of like paled in comparison a little bit.

403
00:29:27,260 –> 00:29:31,300
And I felt really bad. But so I went to Seoul, Busan and Jeju Island.

404
00:29:31,300 –> 00:29:34,100
D: I want to go to Busan so bad. I hear great things.

405
00:29:34,100 –> 00:29:38,340
V: Busan was my favorite because we were right near the beach and it was just like, it felt

406
00:29:38,340 –> 00:29:42,860
very relaxing and just like there was a lot of fun stuff, a lot of artsy stuff. So that

407
00:29:42,860 –> 00:29:48,860
was my favorite. I actually didn’t encounter no hostile racism, I’ll say. It was one instance

408
00:29:48,860 –> 00:29:52,220
that was maybe, but I couldn’t tell if they were being racist or just rude. Cause it was

409
00:29:52,220 –> 00:29:56,140
like we were at a club and you know, I feel like clubs and like bouncers and like coat

410
00:29:56,140 –> 00:29:59,980
check people just can be kind of rude in general, no matter where you are. So I don’t know if

411
00:29:59,980 –> 00:30:04,100
that was what that was, if they were just being racist. And then when I, when we went

412
00:30:04,100 –> 00:30:09,220
to Busan, you know, we were more like in the country area. And so there was an older Korean

413
00:30:09,220 –> 00:30:16,060
person who tried to touch my hair. But– D: I hear that happens a lot. It’s wild to me. V: Yeah.

414
00:30:16,060 –> 00:30:20,660
But like there are at least, at least 60, maybe 70, which of course, you know, should

415
00:30:20,660 –> 00:30:25,420
still know better than to like touch strangers. But it was like, okay, you’re, you’re older.

416
00:30:25,420 –> 00:30:30,060
We’re like in the middle of like, cause we had to take a bus and we had like a layover.

417
00:30:30,060 –> 00:30:33,380
And so we’re like really in the middle of like nowhere. So I’m like, you may not have

418
00:30:33,380 –> 00:30:38,380
actually seen a Black person before. So like I’m like, I’m going to must move out way,

419
00:30:38,380 –> 00:30:45,080
but I won’t yell at you. But that was it. I feel like because so many Black people have

420
00:30:45,080 –> 00:30:49,060
moved there, because as you probably know, like a lot of people that teach English there

421
00:30:49,060 –> 00:30:52,940
or like do other jobs, some are just have moved there. I feel like at least in like

422
00:30:52,940 –> 00:30:57,020
Seoul, like they’re kind of used to us now. D: Yeah, it’s getting much more, I mean, it’s

423
00:30:57,020 –> 00:31:02,260
still very low percentages, but when you go from like 99% Korean to even like 97, I don’t

424
00:31:02,260 –> 00:31:06,940
know the statistics these days, it’s still a big shift and they have more, you know,

425
00:31:06,940 –> 00:31:11,980
multicultural people, Black people specifically in their media, right? Like Sam Okyere,

426
00:31:11,980 –> 00:31:16,820
which I mean, is he in the media anymore? We’re rooting for you Sam. V: I saw him on something

427
00:31:16,820 –> 00:31:22,020
recently and I was like, bro, you’re still out here. Let’s go Sam. D: He got back on some

428
00:31:22,020 –> 00:31:26,420
sort of show and I was like, Oh, look at him. It was so funny though, not to call him out

429
00:31:26,420 –> 00:31:30,660
his name. I don’t think we have any Korean listeners, so it’s fine. But he went on this

430
00:31:30,660 –> 00:31:35,460
show and again, he’s, you know, apologizing for what he did for people who don’t know

431
00:31:35,460 –> 00:31:42,180
and very, very brief, he was calling out blackface of these students. This was, I think 2020 that

432
00:31:42,180 –> 00:31:45,980
they had done in South Korea, somewhere in the country, a school of high schoolers, I

433
00:31:45,980 –> 00:31:50,500
think they’d done blackface. It’s a problem. He called it out. There was a big uproar.

434
00:31:50,500 –> 00:31:54,300
He had to apologize. He lost all his work, etc, etc. It was bad. V: I did not hear about

435
00:31:54,300 –> 00:31:59,900
any of that. So thank you for that little recap. D: Oh, it was, it was a lot. So that’s

436
00:31:59,900 –> 00:32:06,100
why he stopped working and he was on a lot of shows. He lost all of his work, but he

437
00:32:06,100 –> 00:32:10,020
recently was on something and in that show, he was again apologizing, like he had bowed

438
00:32:10,020 –> 00:32:13,140
down in front of the media, like all this stuff. But again, he was apologizing on the

439
00:32:13,140 –> 00:32:17,380
show. But a couple of weeks prior to that, or maybe a couple of months, he was on Jubilee

440
00:32:17,380 –> 00:32:22,180
and they have this show. It’s a YouTube channel, Jubilee. They have just a concept of a show

441
00:32:22,180 –> 00:32:27,480
where you stand in line if you agree, disagree, strongly disagree, and then like in the positive

442
00:32:27,480 –> 00:32:31,180
the other way. But with black people living in Japan, they did one with Black people living

443
00:32:31,180 –> 00:32:36,060
in India, maybe and then Black people living in South Korea. And he was on that episode

444
00:32:36,060 –> 00:32:40,020
and he was not that apologetic on that episode. Let me tell you. V: He’s like, I already lost

445
00:32:40,020 –> 00:32:44,660
my brand deals. Like– D: Yeah, he’s like, that was rough. Y’all didn’t have to do all that.

446
00:32:44,660 –> 00:32:48,540
But then he goes on the show later. He’s like, yes, I’m still so sorry. But he knows his

447
00:32:48,540 –> 00:32:53,420
audience. You know, shout out to him. Get the bag. I get it. V: Absolutely. D: But yeah, you’re

448
00:32:53,420 –> 00:32:57,820
seeing more Black models going back to people in the public perception, Black models in

449
00:32:57,820 –> 00:33:04,300
South Korea. Multicultural families are gaining in prevalence, too. So I have hope that things

450
00:33:04,300 –> 00:33:08,080
are changing over there. And it definitely does seem to be the case with the younger

451
00:33:08,080 –> 00:33:14,660
generation, which also gets me really hyped for this podcast. I think the points of connection

452
00:33:14,660 –> 00:33:18,340
have a lot of potential through our pop culture, have a lot of potential to do good works in

453
00:33:18,340 –> 00:33:23,060
these places where they’re trying to transition from such a like, homogenous outlook, I guess

454
00:33:23,060 –> 00:33:29,740
you could say. But also, I think we also have to do work as Americans not be so culturally

455
00:33:29,740 –> 00:33:34,580
imperialist about it? V: Yeah, definitely. You know, I never realized how quote unquote American

456
00:33:34,580 –> 00:33:39,380
I was until I went to Tokyo and South Korea. Because then you realize like, wow, I’m very

457
00:33:39,380 –> 00:33:47,220
loud. And it’s like, all these things. But also quickly, South Korea was the first place

458
00:33:47,220 –> 00:33:52,980
I saw Black mannequins. D: Really? V: Yeah, it was very early. So we’re like brown mannequins.

459
00:33:52,980 –> 00:33:57,300
And it was just like, wow, I’ve never I didn’t realize I didn’t see that before. And I was

460
00:33:57,300 –> 00:34:01,140
like, this is the first time I’ve seen it. And I’m in South Korea. D: That is so interesting.

461
00:34:01,140 –> 00:34:06,260
Yeah, I, I’m real fascinated to see where they go. Not South Korea, but a lot of these

462
00:34:06,260 –> 00:34:12,180
homogenous countries. Speaking of cultural exchange, you do content about Sailor Moon,

463
00:34:12,180 –> 00:34:17,400
which is an anime. And I was wondering what you think about how we as content creators

464
00:34:17,400 –> 00:34:23,940
can encourage healthy cultural exchange versus leaning into the negative or having listeners

465
00:34:23,940 –> 00:34:28,300
who might be new to the concepts of things like cultural appropriation, stuff like that.

466
00:34:28,300 –> 00:34:33,220
V: I mean, on the content creator side, I think making sure you’re doing research and just

467
00:34:33,220 –> 00:34:39,540
like checking yourself or checking like, with friends like, hey, this is this is bad. This

468
00:34:39,540 –> 00:34:43,420
is offensive. Should I say that I shouldn’t say this? Or, yeah, just having like people

469
00:34:43,420 –> 00:34:46,660
who can be real with you or just like being real with yourself and making sure that you

470
00:34:46,660 –> 00:34:51,220
know, you’re listening to other people who are part of those cultures. And I think for

471
00:34:51,220 –> 00:34:55,820
both ways, one of the things I try to do is like on Twitter, when people talk, I listen,

472
00:34:55,820 –> 00:34:58,660
you know, when they say something like, this is something that’s affecting me and here’s

473
00:34:58,660 –> 00:35:02,260
how it affects me. Like, I’m like, oh, I didn’t think about that. Or, oh, I didn’t know that

474
00:35:02,260 –> 00:35:05,740
because you know, I recognize my own ignorance of things. And I would hope that other people

475
00:35:05,740 –> 00:35:09,100
do the same thing and just, you know, be real with yourself about what you know and what

476
00:35:09,100 –> 00:35:13,460
you don’t know. Yeah. And even like, there’s some stuff I’m like, I don’t really understand

477
00:35:13,460 –> 00:35:16,260
why you’re struggling here. But if you say you’re struggling, I’m just going to believe

478
00:35:16,260 –> 00:35:21,420
you and go about my way. And believe that. And say, if this bothers you, I don’t understand

479
00:35:21,420 –> 00:35:25,380
why it bothers you. But if you say it bothers you, I won’t do it. Or, you know, I will stand

480
00:35:25,380 –> 00:35:30,060
behind you when we tell other people not to do it. Just being empathetic and compassionate

481
00:35:30,060 –> 00:35:33,700
and listening to others and checking yourself.

482
00:35:33,700 –> 00:35:37,780
D: Checking yourself is underrated. We all have to do it from time to time. And it can be

483
00:35:37,780 –> 00:35:41,820
uncomfortable, but I strive to do it. And I urge my listeners to strive to do it.

484
00:35:41,820 –> 00:35:46,020
V: Yeah, because I mean, as much as like we call out other cultures for cultural appropriation,

485
00:35:46,020 –> 00:35:48,620
I think Black people, I know that’s what I’m saying. Like with me checking myself, when

486
00:35:48,620 –> 00:35:51,700
I first got into Korean culture, I’m like, I had to check myself because you know, you

487
00:35:51,700 –> 00:35:56,260
can, it’s like, oh, Korea, Korea. And it’s like, wait, like, you don’t know everything.

488
00:35:56,260 –> 00:36:00,900
This isn’t your culture. D: Especially with K-dramas, again, like we said, it’s hard and fast. If

489
00:36:00,900 –> 00:36:05,500
y’all are listening at home or not into K-dramas, it’s hard and fast. And you envelop yourself

490
00:36:05,500 –> 00:36:10,700
in that world. It’s very easy to, you know, cross that line over into like, oh, wait,

491
00:36:10,700 –> 00:36:14,540
this is maybe, maybe I need to back off a little. What has been your proudest moment

492
00:36:14,540 –> 00:36:17,700
as a creator in fandom thus far?

493
00:36:17,700 –> 00:36:22,500
V: This is a hard week to ask me this because I just had like some good moments. I’ll say

494
00:36:22,500 –> 00:36:28,100
two at least. I think one having Saweetie on the podcast, I think that was just like

495
00:36:28,100 –> 00:36:31,820
really great. That was like when I started the podcast, I was like, if I can get Sasha

496
00:36:31,820 –> 00:36:37,020
Banks, who’s now Mercedes Monet and Saweetie and Lizzo on the show, those are like my dream

497
00:36:37,020 –> 00:36:42,900
guests. And just being able to do the podcast in general and seeing like it being received

498
00:36:42,900 –> 00:36:46,300
so well. Cause when I started it, I was just like, I think this is it. I think this will

499
00:36:46,300 –> 00:36:51,620
do good. And it’s just been like, oh, it was actually happening. Cool. Just recently at

500
00:36:51,620 –> 00:36:56,740
C2E2, they let me like kind of curate a space called the Sailor Moon Fan Clubhouse.

501
00:36:56,740 –> 00:37:00,140
So I was kind of able to like put together an area where like you could watch Sailor

502
00:37:00,140 –> 00:37:05,660
Moon and color. So there was like Sailor Moon coloring pages and like colored pencils. And

503
00:37:05,660 –> 00:37:09,220
I had like Sailor Moon Monopoly and some other Sailor Moon games and playing cards for people

504
00:37:09,220 –> 00:37:14,300
to play. And it was just like a chill little space and just very Sailor Moon themed. And

505
00:37:14,300 –> 00:37:17,540
those are the kinds of things I want to start doing more often. Cause I would love to just

506
00:37:17,540 –> 00:37:22,500
like gather more anime fans or gather, especially Sailor Moon fans, just kind of give us some

507
00:37:22,500 –> 00:37:26,800
fun activities to do every so often or fun like ways to get together. Cause every time

508
00:37:26,800 –> 00:37:31,100
like I talk to people online or even like get together for stuff in person, they’re

509
00:37:31,100 –> 00:37:34,980
like, oh, like we don’t have this or you know, it’d be great if we can do this more. And

510
00:37:34,980 –> 00:37:37,860
so I’m hoping that I can do that.

511
00:37:37,860 –> 00:37:42,380
D: What was it like seeing that space you imagine fully realized in person and actually happening

512
00:37:42,380 –> 00:37:43,860
and people enjoying it?

513
00:37:43,860 –> 00:37:48,740
It was so good. Like I think I go into most things with like very, not low expectations,

514
00:37:48,740 –> 00:37:55,580
but maybe like neutral expectations. And so when things are like going, wow, I’m like,

515
00:37:55,580 –> 00:37:59,180
oh wow, cool. It was just really nice seeing like people sit down and watch Sailor Moon

516
00:37:59,180 –> 00:38:02,660
and seeing people’s reaction whenever they saw that we were playing Sailor Moon in the

517
00:38:02,660 –> 00:38:05,500
area. Like people would stop and be like, they’re playing Sailor Moon. And like you

518
00:38:05,500 –> 00:38:10,780
could see people kind of become like little kids again. And I don’t know many things that

519
00:38:10,780 –> 00:38:14,100
can do that to people. So that was, that was really nice.

520
00:38:14,100 –> 00:38:18,660
D: That’s so neat. What are your hopes for the future of anime fandom or just general cross

521
00:38:18,660 –> 00:38:19,660
cultural fandom?

522
00:38:19,660 –> 00:38:24,980
V: I mean, maybe cool to see more, I guess more collaboration, more, I guess, understanding

523
00:38:24,980 –> 00:38:33,420
this in general, less hate and less ignorance in general. Yeah. I think people having more

524
00:38:33,420 –> 00:38:37,860
fun and just like getting together because we both enjoy the same things.

525
00:38:37,860 –> 00:38:38,860
D: Fandom should be fun.

526
00:38:38,860 –> 00:38:40,420
V: Fandom should be fun.

527
00:38:40,420 –> 00:38:41,420
D: I agree.

528
00:38:41,420 –> 00:38:44,980
V: That’s what I always tell people on the podcast. I’m like, it doesn’t matter. Because people

529
00:38:44,980 –> 00:38:47,940
like be apologetic about like, oh, I only watched the English one. I haven’t watched

530
00:38:47,940 –> 00:38:51,500
the Japanese one. Or I’ve only watched it recently like you. And I’m just like, it’s

531
00:38:51,500 –> 00:38:56,460
fine. Like as long as you’re a fan, that is the only requirement to be on the show. Like

532
00:38:56,460 –> 00:39:01,220
you don’t need to know like every voice actor or like the English dub versus the Japanese

533
00:39:01,220 –> 00:39:06,180
dub, or you’ve seen Crystal or read the manga. It’s like if you’ve only seen like a few episodes

534
00:39:06,180 –> 00:39:10,380
of the show and you really loved it or you liked it, like you’re a fan and that’s it.

535
00:39:10,380 –> 00:39:13,940
Less gatekeeping, more fun. That’s the takeaway.

536
00:39:13,940 –> 00:39:16,140
D: I love that.

537
00:39:16,140 –> 00:39:18,620
Is there anything else that you hoped we had more time for?

538
00:39:18,620 –> 00:39:23,980
V: I mean, we can talk more about Lee Minho or Gong Yoo.

539
00:39:23,980 –> 00:39:29,020
We might have to have a whole part two just to expound on the merits of Gong Yoo and his

540
00:39:29,020 –> 00:39:30,020
features.

541
00:39:30,020 –> 00:39:33,860
Yeah, but other than that, no, I don’t think so. This is great. This is so much fun.

542
00:39:33,860 –> 00:39:37,300
D: Thank you so much. I thank you so much for coming. Where can the good folks find you?

543
00:39:37,300 –> 00:39:40,180
I know you’re on hiatus, but plug what you can where you can. Go ahead

544
00:39:40,180 –> 00:39:45,700
Yeah, I mean, I still tweet. So you can find me on Twitter at Miss Old School. Same on

545
00:39:45,700 –> 00:39:53,460
Instagram. That’s old school with a K. So M-I-S-S-O-L-D-S-K-O-O-L. And you can also find me the podcast,

546
00:39:53,460 –> 00:39:56,980
Sailor Moon Fan Club, wherever you listen to podcasts, there are like over 100 episodes.

547
00:39:56,980 –> 00:40:02,740
So plenty to catch up on while I’m on hiatus. It will probably be returning later this year.

548
00:40:02,740 –> 00:40:07,500
And you can find that on Moonies Club on Twitter and Moonies underscore club on Instagram.

549
00:40:07,500 –> 00:40:11,580
And then I do TikToks every so often. So you can find me there on Sailor Victoria.

550
00:40:11,580 –> 00:40:16,060
D: Much respect about you doing TikToks. I cannot, but I have so much respect for those who do.

551
00:40:16,060 –> 00:40:21,420
V: I do one maybe every like four months. So don’t respect me too much.

552
00:40:21,420 –> 00:40:26,140
D: Okay, y’all. Well, thank you so much for listening. You can let me know what your first fandom

553
00:40:26,140 –> 00:40:31,660
is. I am curious. You can do that at Culture X Podcast on Twitter or Instagram, not TikTok. Sorry.

554
00:40:32,460 –> 00:40:37,260
And you can join us next week where we will be joined by Black Girl Seoul. We’ll be talking about

555
00:40:37,260 –> 00:40:57,100
K-dramas and being Black in K-drama fandom. Until then, keep it chill and keep it nerdy.

May 1 2023

[1] Beginning of My Nerdy Journey

[1] Beginning of My Nerdy Journey feat. Delia's Dad

Listen on...

Watch on YouTube

Show Notes

Show Notes
Transcription

In the inaugural episode of Culture by Culture, Delia interviews the first nerd and first Black nerd she ever knew; her dad. She explores what it was like growing up in the segregated south and how those experiences did or didn’t inform his interests in East Asian pop-culture to include: Shaw Brothers Studio, Godzilla, Dragon Ball, and Ocarina of Time! What anime or video game would you watch or play for the rest of time if you could only play one? Things discussed in this episode:

Anime: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball Z Super, Inuyasha
Movies: Godzilla, kung fu movies, Shaw Brothers Studio, Bruce Lee, Green Hornet
Video games: Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask, Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom, Madden, Halo, Diddy Kong Racing
Professional gaming
Blockbuster
The segregated south
Asian representation in mid-century media

Guest

This episode’s guest, is my dad! You can’t find him online, but you can find my essay, “Beyond the Kokiri Forest: A Father and Daughter’s Zelda Adventure” about playing through Ocarina of Time with my dad, here.

Find us online:

Website: culturexpodcast.com
Patreon: patreon.com/culturebyculture
Instagram: instagram.com/culturexpodcast/
Twitter: twitter.com/culturexpodcast

Credits

Host, Executive Producer, Editor, Engineer: DeliaTwitter: @deliaistyping, Instagram: @deliaistyping, Website: deliaistyping.com

About Culture by Culture

Culture by Culture is a multidimensional podcast exploration into Black and Asian pop-cultural ties. Part sociology, history, and pop-culture podcast, it covers everything from deep-dives into our favorite gateway media, interviews with experts to help guide us through our historical and current cultural connections, and conversations with fellow nerds digging into our cultural identities and our pop-cultural interests.Our mission is to understand and foster the unity that has historically existed between our cultures through our shared interests in each other’s pop-culture.

1
00:00:00,000 –> 00:00:04,880
Delia: Hey there, welcome to Culture by Culture, a multi-dimensional exploration of Black and

2
00:00:04,880 –> 00:00:06,520
Asian pop cultural ties.

3
00:00:06,520 –> 00:00:11,920
I’m your incredibly excited host, Delia, and for our first episode, I thought if we’re

4
00:00:11,920 –> 00:00:16,560
going to explore these pop cultural ties and the why behind them, it just made sense to

5
00:00:16,560 –> 00:00:20,140
start from the beginning, or at least my beginning.

6
00:00:20,140 –> 00:00:25,480
Today I have with me not just the first Black nerd that I ever knew, but the first nerd I

7
00:00:25,480 –> 00:00:27,480
ever knew in general, my dad.

8
00:00:27,480 –> 00:00:28,480
Hi, Dad.

9
00:00:28,480 –> 00:00:29,480
Greg: Hi, Baby.

10
00:00:29,480 –> 00:00:31,080
D: Would you like to introduce yourself?

11
00:00:31,080 –> 00:00:32,080
G: Yes.

12
00:00:32,080 –> 00:00:36,360
Thank you for having me on your very, very first podcast.

13
00:00:36,360 –> 00:00:42,000
I’m sure it will be a success, not because you have me, but because you’re a bright and

14
00:00:42,000 –> 00:00:45,520
intelligent young lady and you’re going to make this work.

15
00:00:45,520 –> 00:00:50,880
Yeah, I’m the first Black nerd that I ever knew.

16
00:00:50,880 –> 00:00:57,820
I grew up with friends that were, at the time, I don’t think the word nerd was a thing when

17
00:00:57,820 –> 00:00:59,000
I was growing up.

18
00:00:59,000 –> 00:01:03,600
So the closest thing I can attribute to that would be squares.

19
00:01:03,600 –> 00:01:04,880
So we were square.

20
00:01:04,880 –> 00:01:06,320
We weren’t jocks.

21
00:01:06,320 –> 00:01:08,480
We weren’t a part of their league.

22
00:01:08,480 –> 00:01:12,440
And I don’t even know if we knew we were known as Squares.

23
00:01:12,440 –> 00:01:17,120
People really didn’t pay that much attention to us other than if they saw us, you know,

24
00:01:17,120 –> 00:01:18,120
go away.

25
00:01:18,120 –> 00:01:21,720
D: So people weren’t on the street shouting “Squares!”

26
00:01:21,720 –> 00:01:23,560
G: No, no, no.

27
00:01:23,560 –> 00:01:26,800
We were pretty, what do you call us, conspicuous.

28
00:01:26,800 –> 00:01:33,320
I mean, the tougher kids around growing up, they just didn’t really pay that much attention

29
00:01:33,320 –> 00:01:35,920
to us because we weren’t a threat.

30
00:01:35,920 –> 00:01:41,680
So you know, they were more interested in bigger prey or whatever.

31
00:01:41,680 –> 00:01:44,000
So that was what we were.

32
00:01:44,000 –> 00:01:45,000
We were Squares.

33
00:01:45,000 –> 00:01:48,360
D: Do you still consider yourself a Square or what would you call yourself now?

34
00:01:48,360 –> 00:01:50,600
A nerd, a geek, something else?

35
00:01:50,600 –> 00:01:52,800
G: I’m an old head nerd.

36
00:01:52,800 –> 00:01:57,560
D: Okay, so what are you into as far as your nerdy interests?

37
00:01:57,560 –> 00:02:02,440
Of course, we’re here to talk about Asian pop-culture in particular, but in general,

38
00:02:02,440 –> 00:02:04,800
what strikes your fancy?

39
00:02:04,800 –> 00:02:13,120
G: All of the anything that has to do with pop culture, entertainment, anime, kind of both

40
00:02:13,120 –> 00:02:18,120
video games, music, all of it really just fascinates me.

41
00:02:18,120 –> 00:02:21,160
And I don’t I don’t know where it really stemmed from.

42
00:02:21,160 –> 00:02:28,600
I kind of understand the growth of how I got to where I’m at, but I really enjoy it all.

43
00:02:28,600 –> 00:02:34,680
And I think it stems from back in the day, growing up in the segregated South, it was

44
00:02:34,680 –> 00:02:40,840
escapism, although there wasn’t anime at the time, there were comic books and other things

45
00:02:40,840 –> 00:02:44,760
that you could use to entertain to escape that world.

46
00:02:44,760 –> 00:02:52,000
D: What would you say was your first foray into Asian pop culture, if you will?

47
00:02:52,000 –> 00:02:53,000
G: Dragon Ball Z.

48
00:02:53,000 –> 00:02:56,360
Well, actually, it was Dragon Ball.

49
00:02:56,360 –> 00:03:02,720
And it was just the idea that stemmed from my love of comic books, which Dragon Ball

50
00:03:02,720 –> 00:03:06,560
is more like it’s superhero-y if you will.

51
00:03:06,560 –> 00:03:14,000
And I just thought that was so fantastic that we had something not that we had because it

52
00:03:14,000 –> 00:03:19,040
had been going on in Japan for a year or two before we got it here in the States.

53
00:03:19,040 –> 00:03:25,640
And when we finally did, I was just like, wow, I mean, the videos that you would see

54
00:03:25,640 –> 00:03:28,000
that we would go get from Blockbuster.

55
00:03:28,000 –> 00:03:32,760
I know a lot of people just like “Blockbuster? What’s Blockbuster?”

56
00:03:32,760 –> 00:03:34,880
D: I do remember getting them from Blockbuster.

57
00:03:34,880 –> 00:03:39,160
I haven’t watched Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z in full, but mostly I’ve watched it with

58
00:03:39,160 –> 00:03:43,000
you because you would be sitting in the living room watching it.

59
00:03:43,000 –> 00:03:45,720
Because again, this is mostly before computers.

60
00:03:45,720 –> 00:03:48,080
We weren’t all on our own phones.

61
00:03:48,080 –> 00:03:50,560
We’d go to Blockbuster and you’d get it.

62
00:03:50,560 –> 00:03:54,200
And to me, a cartoon’s a cartoon when you’re that age.

63
00:03:54,200 –> 00:03:56,000
It doesn’t really matter.

64
00:03:56,000 –> 00:03:58,200
G: It wasn’t Looney Tunes.

65
00:03:58,200 –> 00:04:00,520
That’s for sure.

66
00:04:00,520 –> 00:04:06,360
D: So as for Dragon Ball, you said that it reminded you of the comic book superheroes of your

67
00:04:06,360 –> 00:04:07,960
youth.

68
00:04:07,960 –> 00:04:11,120
Did your friends read comic books with you?

69
00:04:11,120 –> 00:04:14,580
Was it kind of a solo sort of venture for you?

70
00:04:14,580 –> 00:04:18,840
Was it really common amongst Black young boys to be reading comic books?

71
00:04:18,840 –> 00:04:23,080
D: Well, my brother, he wasn’t into it.

72
00:04:23,080 –> 00:04:28,440
Oddly enough, a neighbor up the street, he was into comic books, not as heavily as I

73
00:04:28,440 –> 00:04:29,440
was.

74
00:04:29,440 –> 00:04:37,520
As a matter of fact, here we are, little Black kids running around with towels tied around

75
00:04:37,520 –> 00:04:38,520
their neck.

76
00:04:38,520 –> 00:04:39,520
We’re flying.

77
00:04:39,520 –> 00:04:40,520
D: Oh my gosh.

78
00:04:40,520 –> 00:04:45,520
G: There are other kids that have brooms riding them like cowboys and Indians.

79
00:04:45,520 –> 00:04:46,520
We’re superheroes.

80
00:04:46,520 –> 00:04:48,480
It was just so much.

81
00:04:48,480 –> 00:04:54,880
I mean, we’d be out there for hours flying or running, rather, with towels tied around

82
00:04:54,880 –> 00:04:56,720
our necks.

83
00:04:56,720 –> 00:05:02,040
I think about it now and I wonder how other kids growing up in the segregated South made

84
00:05:02,040 –> 00:05:04,560
it out sane.

85
00:05:04,560 –> 00:05:10,600
But it seemed like that really helped get us through it.

86
00:05:10,600 –> 00:05:15,640
D: Do you think there’s anything about the stories of kung fu movies that were popular at the

87
00:05:15,640 –> 00:05:21,000
time and Godzilla and things like that that really lent themselves to be that escapism?

88
00:05:21,000 –> 00:05:24,680
G: Oh, I don’t know that I would have made it.

89
00:05:24,680 –> 00:05:26,280
We had to have Godzilla.

90
00:05:26,280 –> 00:05:28,480
We had to have the kung fu movies.

91
00:05:28,480 –> 00:05:35,080
I mean, kung fu Saturdays on television and then there were the movies, the Godzilla movies

92
00:05:35,080 –> 00:05:41,200
on Saturdays that we’d go downtown because we only had one movie house in the town.

93
00:05:41,200 –> 00:05:46,400
And just to date myself, so everybody understands how long it was.

94
00:05:46,400 –> 00:05:53,440
It was ten cents to get into the movies to watch three features for that day.

95
00:05:53,440 –> 00:06:00,200
So we as kids, the movie opened at noon and we go in, wait in line, pay our ten cents

96
00:06:00,200 –> 00:06:02,960
and go into the movies and be there.

97
00:06:02,960 –> 00:06:06,120
And we watch movies all day.

98
00:06:06,120 –> 00:06:08,640
And it was just like the greatest thrill.

99
00:06:08,640 –> 00:06:11,840
And that was a form of escapism.

100
00:06:11,840 –> 00:06:17,760
Even though it was couched in segregation, we didn’t care because at that time it was

101
00:06:17,760 –> 00:06:19,020
normal.

102
00:06:19,020 –> 00:06:21,960
But it was just such a joy.

103
00:06:21,960 –> 00:06:26,520
And then we have the Hong Kong movies, which were the Chao Brothers.

104
00:06:26,520 –> 00:06:28,840
D: Hi, Editing Delia here.

105
00:06:28,840 –> 00:06:33,400
To clarify, by the Chao Brothers, my dad means the absolutely prolific powerhouse that was

106
00:06:33,400 –> 00:06:35,040
Shaw Brothers Studio.

107
00:06:35,040 –> 00:06:39,400
If you’ve seen any old kung fu movie that wasn’t Bruce Lee, there’s a good chance

108
00:06:39,400 –> 00:06:40,720
it was the Shaw Brothers.

109
00:06:40,720 –> 00:06:42,680
OK, back to my dad.

110
00:06:42,680 –> 00:06:46,720
G: They were making these things back to back to back.

111
00:06:46,720 –> 00:06:53,720
And I love them for it because we were believing in stuff that technically… this was the precursor

112
00:06:53,720 –> 00:07:00,000
probably to anime, the Hong Kong movies, because they were doing some of the most impossible

113
00:07:00,000 –> 00:07:01,000
stuff.

114
00:07:01,000 –> 00:07:02,000
And we loved it.

115
00:07:02,000 –> 00:07:08,080
I mean, we would go out in the yard. Ha! Ha! Ha!

116
00:07:08,080 –> 00:07:12,360
D: I imagine there’s not very many Asian people growing up around you.

117
00:07:12,360 –> 00:07:19,440
You don’t have any IRL influences to cross reference the media you’re watching.

118
00:07:19,440 –> 00:07:26,000
G: The only Asians I saw were on television and the movies.

119
00:07:26,000 –> 00:07:32,520
And unless it came from the Hong Kong karate movies, anything else was pretty much in a

120
00:07:32,520 –> 00:07:36,840
bad lot insofar as the Asian culture was concerned.

121
00:07:36,840 –> 00:07:40,160
I remember watching the movie Breakfast at Tiffany’s.

122
00:07:40,160 –> 00:07:42,160
D: Oh my gosh, yes.

123
00:07:42,160 –> 00:07:43,160
G: and Mickey Rooney.

124
00:07:43,160 –> 00:07:50,800
At the time when I saw it, I could not understand why in the heck is Mickey Rooney playing an

125
00:07:50,800 –> 00:07:54,920
Asian character when they have tons of–

126
00:07:54,920 –> 00:08:00,840
But that was the time the Hong Kong movies were just excellent.

127
00:08:00,840 –> 00:08:05,760
And then whatever they represented on television was just like *raspberry*

128
00:08:05,760 –> 00:08:10,480
D: I really had sat with the fact that those were happening at the same time.

129
00:08:10,480 –> 00:08:16,360
You know, about the yellow face of Mickey Rooney and movies around that time.

130
00:08:16,360 –> 00:08:20,360
But this was happening the same time as these kung fu movies are coming out and Godzilla

131
00:08:20,360 –> 00:08:21,360
is coming out.

132
00:08:21,360 –> 00:08:25,000
That is wild to me.

133
00:08:25,000 –> 00:08:29,040
Because you can I mean, I don’t excuse it for ignorance for obvious reasons, but I could

134
00:08:29,040 –> 00:08:30,520
see people making that argument.

135
00:08:30,520 –> 00:08:34,400
But then when you look at the time frame, there really was no no sense, no reason.

136
00:08:34,400 –> 00:08:36,560
That is wild.

137
00:08:36,560 –> 00:08:38,960
G: That was just the times.

138
00:08:38,960 –> 00:08:42,920
And we actually we still live in those times.

139
00:08:42,920 –> 00:08:47,280
During that time, it was more it was, I think, more overt.

140
00:08:47,280 –> 00:08:53,040
Now it has become a combination of the two or more covert.

141
00:08:53,040 –> 00:08:58,200
Because I mean, people didn’t care about the racial stereotypes.

142
00:08:58,200 –> 00:09:02,600
I mean, not that they didn’t care, but it was just what was done.

143
00:09:02,600 –> 00:09:04,160
It was normal.

144
00:09:04,160 –> 00:09:09,720
It wasn’t seen as bad because we had been indoctrinated in our mind to think that maybe

145
00:09:09,720 –> 00:09:12,640
it was normal or think that it was normal.

146
00:09:12,640 –> 00:09:14,760
And that’s the way we treated it.

147
00:09:14,760 –> 00:09:19,360
D: It’s so interesting because over time, and you know, it’s something I want to talk about

148
00:09:19,360 –> 00:09:21,280
and look at throughout this podcast,

149
00:09:21,280 –> 00:09:26,720
But you see in both communities harboring prejudices against each other that stem from

150
00:09:26,720 –> 00:09:29,800
a lot of (they stem from a lot of things, ultimately white supremacy.)

151
00:09:29,800 –> 00:09:34,760
But these media portrayals that we had nothing to do with.

152
00:09:34,760 –> 00:09:37,080
And it’s just real…

153
00:09:37,080 –> 00:09:41,160
It’s disappointing to look at and to know that that’s why because it’s all based in

154
00:09:41,160 –> 00:09:46,240
nothing like it’s a house of cards that really all it would have taken was a strong enough

155
00:09:46,240 –> 00:09:47,240
wind to come blow it.

156
00:09:47,240 –> 00:09:52,360
But things were just so different and we were so, and still are to some extent so indoctrinated

157
00:09:52,360 –> 00:09:53,360
with white supremacy.

158
00:09:53,360 –> 00:09:56,360
And we’re always trying to break that down now.

159
00:09:56,360 –> 00:09:58,600
But back then, that wasn’t the case.

160
00:09:58,600 –> 00:10:02,920
A lot of good has come from good media and a lot of bad has come from bad media.

161
00:10:02,920 –> 00:10:13,560
G: And now, as a matter of fact, the very first positive Asian character I saw at the well,

162
00:10:13,560 –> 00:10:16,280
the Hong Kong movies, all those characters were positive.

163
00:10:16,280 –> 00:10:21,440
But the first positive character I saw on television was Bruce Lee.

164
00:10:21,440 –> 00:10:27,320
Oh. My. Goodness. I mean, I wanted to be Bruce Lee.

165
00:10:27,320 –> 00:10:29,960
I mean, the Green Hornet came out.

166
00:10:29,960 –> 00:10:30,960
He was Kato.

167
00:10:30,960 –> 00:10:36,400
Oh, it gives me chills just thinking about it.

168
00:10:36,400 –> 00:10:40,840
I mean, how heroic he was.

169
00:10:40,840 –> 00:10:47,720
And at the time when they were shooting Green Hornet, I had no idea how– what he had to go

170
00:10:47,720 –> 00:10:51,720
through just to get that little bit going.

171
00:10:51,720 –> 00:10:55,040
And Hollywood, I mean, he was facing racial prejudice.

172
00:10:55,040 –> 00:10:59,040
And as a matter of fact, Bruce Lee was scheduled.

173
00:10:59,040 –> 00:11:06,120
They wanted him to do Kung Fu that ended up using David Carradine, a white actor, to portray

174
00:11:06,120 –> 00:11:10,040
the part of Kang in the series.

175
00:11:10,040 –> 00:11:12,120
It should have been Bruce Lee.

176
00:11:12,120 –> 00:11:16,200
But because he was really Asian, they said no.

177
00:11:16,200 –> 00:11:22,520
There have been so many injustices because of racial stereotypes that it is just like,

178
00:11:22,520 –> 00:11:23,520
it’s nonsense.

179
00:11:23,520 –> 00:11:29,720
D: That’s a good way to put it because when you start unpacking this stuff, it really is just

180
00:11:29,720 –> 00:11:30,720
nonsense.

181
00:11:30,720 –> 00:11:35,560
I see more points of connection through our interest in pop-culture than I see points

182
00:11:35,560 –> 00:11:36,640
of division.

183
00:11:36,640 –> 00:11:41,680
But these bad portrayals and white supremacy, because that’s what it is, come in.

184
00:11:41,680 –> 00:11:49,120
And I really want to put at the forefront people’s experiences with cultures besides

185
00:11:49,120 –> 00:11:52,940
their own that are positive because I’d like for us to be able to take that power back

186
00:11:52,940 –> 00:11:57,360
and talk about the great experiences we had engaging with cultures that weren’t ours and

187
00:11:57,360 –> 00:12:01,680
seeing cool pop culture and media that we’d never seen before.

188
00:12:01,680 –> 00:12:03,680
That’s the goal.

189
00:12:03,680 –> 00:12:10,400
I guess where I want to go next is I’m wondering if there’s one memory of the anime, video

190
00:12:10,400 –> 00:12:16,560
game, movie, whatever that really sticks with you.

191
00:12:16,560 –> 00:12:19,560
G: Yes.

192
00:12:19,560 –> 00:12:24,080
There is by far.

193
00:12:24,080 –> 00:12:29,600
I would have to say this is number one and you will remember it as well.

194
00:12:29,600 –> 00:12:32,440
Legend of Zelda, Ocarina of Time.

195
00:12:32,440 –> 00:12:35,320
Oh my goodness.

196
00:12:35,320 –> 00:12:45,160
That is still, I played just a number of games, Mass Effect, Call of Duty, you name it.

197
00:12:45,160 –> 00:12:53,840
I’ve played just different games, but Ocarina of Time will always be my number one video

198
00:12:53,840 –> 00:12:54,840
game.

199
00:12:54,840 –> 00:13:03,360
And you, as a little girl, would sit, I mean, if I think about it too hard, I’ll tear up,

200
00:13:03,360 –> 00:13:06,720
would sit with me while I played and make suggestions.

201
00:13:06,720 –> 00:13:09,440
“Dad, go over here.”

202
00:13:09,440 –> 00:13:12,000
“Dad, go look at this.”

203
00:13:12,000 –> 00:13:15,080
Oh, God.

204
00:13:15,080 –> 00:13:21,600
To be on that journey with you, as a matter of fact, the one thing I can remember is when

205
00:13:21,600 –> 00:13:26,960
it was over, when I finally beat the game and everything was happily ever after, all

206
00:13:26,960 –> 00:13:32,520
the people were happy and you just, you cried.

207
00:13:32,520 –> 00:13:39,640
That was just, that will always be my number one memory in so far as video games are concerned.

208
00:13:39,640 –> 00:13:44,760
D: I feel like something shifted in our household when Ocarina of Time came to stay, I will

209
00:13:44,760 –> 00:13:45,760
say.

210
00:13:45,760 –> 00:13:47,480
Because I have many memories.

211
00:13:47,480 –> 00:13:48,480
Go ahead.

212
00:13:48,480 –> 00:13:51,280
G: No, I was just going to say we didn’t buy it.

213
00:13:51,280 –> 00:13:57,000
We had to pay late fees because we were ready for Blockbuster.

214
00:13:57,000 –> 00:14:02,080
I don’t know how long we kept the game, but we kept it till I finished.

215
00:14:02,080 –> 00:14:03,080
D: A long time.

216
00:14:03,080 –> 00:14:04,080
G: Yeah.

217
00:14:04,080 –> 00:14:05,560
D: We didn’t buy it.

218
00:14:05,560 –> 00:14:09,800
I do remember that, but we did have the, they used to, maybe they still make them.

219
00:14:09,800 –> 00:14:10,800
I don’t really know.

220
00:14:10,800 –> 00:14:14,280
I think they’d be redundant with the internet, but like the whole guide, they would make

221
00:14:14,280 –> 00:14:17,040
paper bag guides.

222
00:14:17,040 –> 00:14:24,000
G: It was, as a matter of fact, it was Nintendo made the guide and I wish I had that thing

223
00:14:24,000 –> 00:14:25,760
now because it’s worth a ton of money.

224
00:14:25,760 –> 00:14:26,760
D: I remember it.

225
00:14:26,760 –> 00:14:28,520
It was real pretty to look at.

226
00:14:28,520 –> 00:14:32,480
But yeah, I remember sitting, you would sit on the couch and I would be sitting behind

227
00:14:32,480 –> 00:14:36,320
you watching you play on our N64.

228
00:14:36,320 –> 00:14:38,920
Yeah, I have many, many memories that way.

229
00:14:38,920 –> 00:14:41,320
It was transformative for me as well.

230
00:14:41,320 –> 00:14:43,320
G: Do you remember Navi?

231
00:14:43,320 –> 00:14:45,240
D: Oh, for sure.

232
00:14:45,240 –> 00:14:51,240
I mean, I’ve definitely played it since, but I do remember even for me as a child, she

233
00:14:51,240 –> 00:14:55,920
was quite annoying because she just wouldn’t, she wouldn’t, I mean, it’s a meme now.

234
00:14:55,920 –> 00:14:56,920
Everybody knows the meme, but.

235
00:14:56,920 –> 00:14:58,960
G: And you couldn’t turn her off.

236
00:14:58,960 –> 00:14:59,960
D: No.

237
00:14:59,960 –> 00:15:04,600
These days they know, okay, we’ll give you an option to turn those types of prompts off.

238
00:15:04,600 –> 00:15:06,680
G: Oh, you could not turn Navi off.

239
00:15:06,680 –> 00:15:09,960
D: You could not.

240
00:15:09,960 –> 00:15:16,280
G: And I think about that game because I’m going to start Twitch stream because I’m going to

241
00:15:16,280 –> 00:15:19,400
go back and start playing again.

242
00:15:19,400 –> 00:15:24,720
And it’ll probably just be once a week, maybe twice a week, you know, and my handle is going

243
00:15:24,720 –> 00:15:27,320
to be 60 plus gamer.

244
00:15:27,320 –> 00:15:30,840
And that’ll be the first game that I play Ocarina of Time.

245
00:15:30,840 –> 00:15:35,120
I don’t care who watches, but it’s just going to be enjoyable for me.

246
00:15:35,120 –> 00:15:38,880
The reason I’m going back is because my favorite part of that entire game, you’re going to

247
00:15:38,880 –> 00:15:42,520
say, wow, you’re a masochist is the water temple.

248
00:15:42,520 –> 00:15:45,000
D: Yes, I knew you were going to say it.

249
00:15:45,000 –> 00:15:47,640
And yes, you are a masochist because what?

250
00:15:47,640 –> 00:15:48,640
Why?

251
00:15:48,640 –> 00:15:50,320
In what world?

252
00:15:50,320 –> 00:15:51,640
G: I don’t know.

253
00:15:51,640 –> 00:15:57,920
But well, I think because the rest of the game seemed not, not easy.

254
00:15:57,920 –> 00:16:03,320
I don’t want to say it was easy because it was, but it seemed at some point become fairly

255
00:16:03,320 –> 00:16:04,320
rudimentary.

256
00:16:04,320 –> 00:16:11,320
And but the water temple was a beast unto itself.

257
00:16:11,320 –> 00:16:15,040
And if you went in there just thinking you’re going to just straight up play it.

258
00:16:15,040 –> 00:16:17,720
No, no, no.

259
00:16:17,720 –> 00:16:23,320
It was just like, because it took it took days to get through that thing.

260
00:16:23,320 –> 00:16:25,040
D: That thing I have memories of it.

261
00:16:25,040 –> 00:16:31,480
And when I was finally playing through Ocarina of Time myself, I was in high school, probably,

262
00:16:31,480 –> 00:16:35,080
–I don’t remember–on our in sixty four because we still had it at the time.

263
00:16:35,080 –> 00:16:42,000
I got to that water temple and it it it stun locked me for a good while.

264
00:16:42,000 –> 00:16:44,920
I I do not like it.

265
00:16:44,920 –> 00:16:50,480
My favorite temple, I would say, is the shadow temple, which is weird because I have memories

266
00:16:50,480 –> 00:16:51,960
as a child of being terrified.

267
00:16:51,960 –> 00:16:57,080
G: I was going to say, why would that be your favorite?

268
00:16:57,080 –> 00:16:58,080
D: I have no idea.

269
00:16:58,080 –> 00:17:02,000
I think because I have such visceral memories of it, for some reason, when I play it, I

270
00:17:02,000 –> 00:17:03,360
enjoy it more somehow.

271
00:17:03,360 –> 00:17:08,880
I had the what were those things called the hands that would fall off the ceiling?

272
00:17:08,880 –> 00:17:17,000
G: The very, very first time one grabbed me, it scared the yeah, it scared me that much

273
00:17:17,000 –> 00:17:22,120
because you know, you hear it coming, you see the shadow boy, you think that I’m just

274
00:17:22,120 –> 00:17:24,320
like, what the heck is going on?

275
00:17:24,320 –> 00:17:28,440
And then it grabs you and it is horrific.

276
00:17:28,440 –> 00:17:33,840
So yeah, that I don’t know why you like that temple.

277
00:17:33,840 –> 00:17:34,840
D: I don’t either.

278
00:17:34,840 –> 00:17:35,840
I really don’t.

279
00:17:35,840 –> 00:17:37,840
It says a lot about me, I suppose.

280
00:17:37,840 –> 00:17:40,600
Well, I guess that brings me to my next question.

281
00:17:40,600 –> 00:17:45,400
Both me and Lil are quite nerdy, I would say, in our different ways.

282
00:17:45,400 –> 00:17:48,320
How do you feel that we turned out so nerdy?

283
00:17:48,320 –> 00:17:51,200
G: I think that I had some influence in that.

284
00:17:51,200 –> 00:17:58,920
The rest of it, I think it’s your your intelligence and your curiosity that spurred you on because

285
00:17:58,920 –> 00:18:02,600
I wasn’t there all the time to push forward your interest.

286
00:18:02,600 –> 00:18:07,080
For example, you like in Inuyasha at the time.

287
00:18:07,080 –> 00:18:09,480
I liked anime, but I didn’t care for Inuyasha.

288
00:18:09,480 –> 00:18:10,720
I don’t know why.

289
00:18:10,720 –> 00:18:15,160
And like I said, I saw a clip the other day and I’m like, “Why didn’t you like this?”

290
00:18:15,160 –> 00:18:17,200
And Lil likes Supernatural.

291
00:18:17,200 –> 00:18:22,160
I don’t know what I was doing that would get Lil interested.

292
00:18:22,160 –> 00:18:23,560
D: I can only speak for me.

293
00:18:23,560 –> 00:18:24,920
For me, absolutely.

294
00:18:24,920 –> 00:18:26,560
I would say your influence–

295
00:18:26,560 –> 00:18:31,040
Yes, I grew from there into my own specific interests.

296
00:18:31,040 –> 00:18:35,260
But yeah, growing up playing video games, that was huge in our household.

297
00:18:35,260 –> 00:18:37,160
It was encouraged to play video games.

298
00:18:37,160 –> 00:18:38,680
It wasn’t a thing, like

299
00:18:38,680 –> 00:18:43,280
growing up, my friends had restrictions on how long they could play video games or worse,

300
00:18:43,280 –> 00:18:46,440
their parents just didn’t understand and they would cross their fingers to get at least

301
00:18:46,440 –> 00:18:48,320
the one game they want for Christmas.

302
00:18:48,320 –> 00:18:51,060
And this was not an issue I ever had.

303
00:18:51,060 –> 00:18:54,880
It was encouraged in our household to play video games.

304
00:18:54,880 –> 00:18:57,560
And maybe some parents are listening and cringing.

305
00:18:57,560 –> 00:19:01,120
But for me, granted, I did have a diagnosed ADHD.

306
00:19:01,120 –> 00:19:03,120
So there is that.

307
00:19:03,120 –> 00:19:10,520
But for me, it was just such a creative and happy way to grow up.

308
00:19:10,520 –> 00:19:15,440
To be able to play Diddy Kong Racing as much as I want.

309
00:19:15,440 –> 00:19:22,760
As much as I could before my dad got home and started playing Madden or whatever.

310
00:19:22,760 –> 00:19:25,400
Being able to play Animal Crossing.

311
00:19:25,400 –> 00:19:27,280
Discovering that was pivotal for me.

312
00:19:27,280 –> 00:19:31,800
I also think because of the themes that a lot of these works cover, whether you’re talking

313
00:19:31,800 –> 00:19:37,420
about anime or fantasy, like I’m interested in also, video games.

314
00:19:37,420 –> 00:19:42,680
Being into media from so many different cultures made me just view the world differently with

315
00:19:42,680 –> 00:19:46,840
a much more open mind than probably I would have had I not had that.

316
00:19:46,840 –> 00:19:51,680
And I wonder, I guess I’ll ask you what you think about the prevalence of nerd culture,

317
00:19:51,680 –> 00:19:54,000
but specifically Asian pop culture these days.

318
00:19:54,000 –> 00:19:55,000
How does it make you feel?

319
00:19:55,000 –> 00:19:57,240
But also do you think it’s escapism?

320
00:19:57,240 –> 00:19:59,800
Is it us being able to relate to these stories now?

321
00:19:59,800 –> 00:20:03,600
Because the stories are also, they were always complex, but so much more varied because there’s

322
00:20:03,600 –> 00:20:05,880
just so much more these days.

323
00:20:05,880 –> 00:20:09,480
G: I think it’s a combination of all of the above.

324
00:20:09,480 –> 00:20:15,220
I mean, anywhere worldwide stories, if you think about it, if you peel back the veil

325
00:20:15,220 –> 00:20:20,160
of skin color, culture, what have you, stories are pretty much the same.

326
00:20:20,160 –> 00:20:28,160
I mean, what happens to me can happen to somebody, whether they’re Native American, Hispanic,

327
00:20:28,160 –> 00:20:30,760
Asian, around the world.

328
00:20:30,760 –> 00:20:32,840
It doesn’t just have to be here in the States.

329
00:20:32,840 –> 00:20:34,720
It can be anywhere.

330
00:20:34,720 –> 00:20:37,280
And it’s universal.

331
00:20:37,280 –> 00:20:44,080
I think that’s why the stories or what have you, whether it’s gaming, movies or television,

332
00:20:44,080 –> 00:20:49,640
that’s why they resonate so much with us, because we can relate to what’s happening

333
00:20:49,640 –> 00:20:52,920
to that individual or that situation.

334
00:20:52,920 –> 00:21:00,320
You could see a story and not have any idea about what race, culture, or who the person

335
00:21:00,320 –> 00:21:05,040
is and you would still be able to relate with the story because there’s something or some

336
00:21:05,040 –> 00:21:09,080
part of that story that you have experienced that you can relate to.

337
00:21:09,080 –> 00:21:11,240
D: I definitely agree.

338
00:21:11,240 –> 00:21:16,320
Are you ever surprised to meet black anime or like video game nerds that are your age?

339
00:21:16,320 –> 00:21:19,240
G: I haven’t met anybody by age.

340
00:21:19,240 –> 00:21:20,240
D: Really?

341
00:21:20,240 –> 00:21:21,240
G: No.

342
00:21:21,240 –> 00:21:27,720
Which is, I’m kind of hoping that that will change when I start my Twitch stream.

343
00:21:27,720 –> 00:21:33,560
I’m hoping that somebody will come out of the woodwork, but for the most part, I expect

344
00:21:33,560 –> 00:21:36,600
to get a lot of, you’re too old to be doing this.

345
00:21:36,600 –> 00:21:37,800
D: Absolutely not.

346
00:21:37,800 –> 00:21:38,800
Okay.

347
00:21:38,800 –> 00:21:44,360
I need anybody listening to this to send it to the old head in their life because I know

348
00:21:44,360 –> 00:21:45,360
that they’re out there.

349
00:21:45,360 –> 00:21:51,120
I know that just like you said, you’d go to the movies to watch Godzilla with those black

350
00:21:51,120 –> 00:21:56,920
kids and who’s to say they didn’t spin out and become anime nerds later in life or video

351
00:21:56,920 –> 00:21:58,240
game nerds or both?

352
00:21:58,240 –> 00:21:59,240
Who’s to say?

353
00:21:59,240 –> 00:22:02,800
So if you’re listening, please send it to the old head in your life so they can sound

354
00:22:02,800 –> 00:22:08,720
off so I can show my dad that there are others like him and you’re absolutely not too old.

355
00:22:08,720 –> 00:22:12,920
G: Well I know that and I wouldn’t let that stop me.

356
00:22:12,920 –> 00:22:21,480
The fact that these young whippersnappers, and the reason I say that is because I would

357
00:22:21,480 –> 00:22:28,280
play Halo and it was just a very short foray into Halo multiplayer.

358
00:22:28,280 –> 00:22:29,280
D: That’s right.

359
00:22:29,280 –> 00:22:31,040
You did play Halo for a second.

360
00:22:31,040 –> 00:22:36,880
G: Yeah, now I played the single player but I said, well, let me try my hand at Halo multiplayer

361
00:22:36,880 –> 00:22:42,840
and that lasted for about 30 minutes and I was getting dropped.

362
00:22:42,840 –> 00:22:52,040
These young heads with these fast, I would turn a corner and see somebody, I’d get,

363
00:22:52,040 –> 00:22:53,040
boom, dead.

364
00:22:53,040 –> 00:22:54,040
Okay.

365
00:22:54,040 –> 00:22:55,040
I’d respawn.

366
00:22:55,040 –> 00:22:58,880
I’d go back, oh, I got hit, boom, dead.

367
00:22:58,880 –> 00:23:03,240
I’m like, for 30 minutes, I did not get one kill.

368
00:23:03,240 –> 00:23:05,360
Do you hear me?

369
00:23:05,360 –> 00:23:06,720
Not one kill.

370
00:23:06,720 –> 00:23:12,160
I got killed probably, I don’t know, I got killed in double digits.

371
00:23:12,160 –> 00:23:17,760
And I just said, this is a young man’s game.

372
00:23:17,760 –> 00:23:25,320
And I say, at the time I said that, but now I realize it’s just a matter of practice.

373
00:23:25,320 –> 00:23:31,360
You can’t nowadays with the skillset there is, as a matter of fact, your cousin, I got

374
00:23:31,360 –> 00:23:34,040
to give it to the boy at the time was good.

375
00:23:34,040 –> 00:23:41,560
Do you remember in Legend of Zelda, Ocarina of Time, that you could lock on with the Z?

376
00:23:41,560 –> 00:23:44,960
You could lock on to the enemy and what have you.

377
00:23:44,960 –> 00:23:47,040
He didn’t use the Z lock.

378
00:23:47,040 –> 00:23:54,240
And I realized he had a skill and I talked to his mother and I told her, you probably

379
00:23:54,240 –> 00:24:00,320
need to look, because it was just beginning to start up kids playing professionally.

380
00:24:00,320 –> 00:24:06,960
And I said, you might want to look into going pro with this kid or giving a sponsor for

381
00:24:06,960 –> 00:24:07,960
him or something.

382
00:24:07,960 –> 00:24:12,200
And at the time, a lot of parents were saying it was a waste of time.

383
00:24:12,200 –> 00:24:15,200
And that’s how they felt about it.

384
00:24:15,200 –> 00:24:17,480
Now kids are making more than their parents.

385
00:24:17,480 –> 00:24:18,560
D: This is what I’m talking about.

386
00:24:18,560 –> 00:24:23,240
I feel very lucky to have grown up in a household that, I mean, I didn’t have that kind of skill

387
00:24:23,240 –> 00:24:27,560
set at games, but if I had, it would have been encouraged to like, all right, let’s

388
00:24:27,560 –> 00:24:28,560
explore this.

389
00:24:28,560 –> 00:24:29,560
Let’s see where this goes.

390
00:24:29,560 –> 00:24:30,560
G: Oh yeah, definitely.

391
00:24:30,560 –> 00:24:36,480
Had you had you exhibited anything like that, I mean, we would have pushed it to the nth

392
00:24:36,480 –> 00:24:42,520
degree or try to get you to a point to where we could see, would this be a waste of time?

393
00:24:42,520 –> 00:24:45,080
And that would be a part of my Twitch stream.

394
00:24:45,080 –> 00:24:50,840
Eventually, I’ll go back to Call of Duty or something like that and try to have somebody

395
00:24:50,840 –> 00:24:54,960
train me on the side before I actually get into the game and embarrass myself on the

396
00:24:54,960 –> 00:24:55,960
stream.

397
00:24:55,960 –> 00:25:00,280
D: Are you going to play Breath of the Wild 2 Tears of the Kingdom when it comes out?

398
00:25:00,280 –> 00:25:04,800
Well, the first game I’m going to play is Ocarina, Legends of Ocarina of Time.

399
00:25:04,800 –> 00:25:10,040
That’s going to be my introduction on my stream because it’s a game I’m familiar with.

400
00:25:10,040 –> 00:25:15,600
It’s a game I love and hopefully I can get through it to play it.

401
00:25:15,600 –> 00:25:20,440
Because I have every intention of playing the new Zelda.

402
00:25:20,440 –> 00:25:26,440
I play Ocarina of Time and I play Majora’s Mask, which was the next game.

403
00:25:26,440 –> 00:25:30,240
And I played it halfway through and I don’t know what happened.

404
00:25:30,240 –> 00:25:32,760
D: Well, firstly, we were still renting at that point.

405
00:25:32,760 –> 00:25:34,800
G: Yeah, that could have been it.

406
00:25:34,800 –> 00:25:37,800
That could have been it.

407
00:25:37,800 –> 00:25:44,120
Yeah, we weren’t the richest family on the block.

408
00:25:44,120 –> 00:25:45,120
D: We were not.

409
00:25:45,120 –> 00:25:50,800
Okay, well, my last question for you is if you could only watch one anime or movie or

410
00:25:50,800 –> 00:25:55,040
play one video game for the rest of time, what would they be and why?

411
00:25:55,040 –> 00:25:57,440
G: Oh, Legends of Zelda Ocarina of Time.

412
00:25:57,440 –> 00:25:58,440
D: I should have known.

413
00:25:58,440 –> 00:26:02,560
G: Yeah, I mean, it has such fond memories for me.

414
00:26:02,560 –> 00:26:06,560
I think I’d played Madden and all those other games before.

415
00:26:06,560 –> 00:26:08,360
D: Boy, did you.

416
00:26:08,360 –> 00:26:09,720
G: Oh, yeah.

417
00:26:09,720 –> 00:26:16,520
But Ocarina of Time, it has such fond memories that you and I, I mean, playing together,

418
00:26:16,520 –> 00:26:18,040
bonding together.

419
00:26:18,040 –> 00:26:26,040
And it was just, I mean, I think on IGN, it was given the, there have been other video

420
00:26:26,040 –> 00:26:29,280
games since, but at the time it got a 10.

421
00:26:29,280 –> 00:26:33,200
And it was deemed or labeled as a masterpiece.

422
00:26:33,200 –> 00:26:39,360
There’s always, I’ll read something or see a YouTube video, something new about Ocarina

423
00:26:39,360 –> 00:26:40,360
of Time.

424
00:26:40,360 –> 00:26:41,600
And I’m just like, I didn’t know that.

425
00:26:41,600 –> 00:26:45,200
And that’s one reason I’m going to go back and play it because there’s stuff in there

426
00:26:45,200 –> 00:26:49,080
that I didn’t know that we could do or find.

427
00:26:49,080 –> 00:26:50,920
And I want to go back and find it.

428
00:26:50,920 –> 00:26:53,200
Even in the Water Temple.

429
00:26:53,200 –> 00:26:58,000
D: I will watch your stream and I will root you on.

430
00:26:58,000 –> 00:27:01,840
I will not be, I will not be, do not ask for my help with Water Temple.

431
00:27:01,840 –> 00:27:03,560
I have none to give.

432
00:27:03,560 –> 00:27:05,840
G: Oh, it’s going to be fun.

433
00:27:05,840 –> 00:27:08,520
D: Do you have, okay, what about an anime?

434
00:27:08,520 –> 00:27:15,200
That would have to be Dragon Ball.

435
00:27:15,200 –> 00:27:16,200
Okay.

436
00:27:16,200 –> 00:27:23,120
Because there’s Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and then the creme de la creme, Dragon Ball

437
00:27:23,120 –> 00:27:24,120
Z Super.

438
00:27:24,120 –> 00:27:26,840
Yeah, that was the best.

439
00:27:26,840 –> 00:27:27,840
D: Okay.

440
00:27:27,840 –> 00:27:30,600
Well, that’s all I have for us today.

441
00:27:30,600 –> 00:27:34,360
Thank you so much for joining me for the first episode of Culture by Culture.

442
00:27:34,360 –> 00:27:36,200
G: Oh, it is my pleasure.

443
00:27:36,200 –> 00:27:38,000
Do you have anything you’d like to plug?

444
00:27:38,000 –> 00:27:39,480
Where can people find you?

445
00:27:39,480 –> 00:27:40,720
If they can find you at all.

446
00:27:40,720 –> 00:27:43,320
Oh, well, they can’t find me anywhere yet.

447
00:27:43,320 –> 00:27:44,840
I’ll get back with you.

448
00:27:44,840 –> 00:27:49,520
And once everything’s up and running, if you want to give me a plug, you can.

449
00:27:49,520 –> 00:27:54,000
But it’s been a pleasure helping you with your inaugural podcast.

450
00:27:54,000 –> 00:27:55,480
I hope it goes well.

451
00:27:55,480 –> 00:28:00,280
I know you’ll be successful in spite of this podcast because you’re going to have other

452
00:28:00,280 –> 00:28:05,440
guests that I’m sure are probably just a tad more excited than me.

453
00:28:05,440 –> 00:28:06,960
So I think-

454
00:28:06,960 –> 00:28:08,240
D: People are going to love you.

455
00:28:08,240 –> 00:28:09,760
I already- don’t you worry.

456
00:28:09,760 –> 00:28:10,760
Don’t you worry about it.

457
00:28:10,760 –> 00:28:11,760
Okay.

458
00:28:11,760 –> 00:28:12,760
All right.

459
00:28:12,760 –> 00:28:15,040
I’m going to leave it in your capable hands.

460
00:28:15,040 –> 00:28:17,520
D: And thank you, everyone, so much for listening.

461
00:28:17,520 –> 00:28:21,680
I want to know what anime or video game would you play for the rest of time?

462
00:28:21,680 –> 00:28:23,800
If you could only choose one and why, let me know.

463
00:28:23,800 –> 00:28:27,960
You can let me know @culturexpodcast on Twitter or Instagram.

464
00:28:27,960 –> 00:28:30,360
We have so much cool stuff coming up this season.

465
00:28:30,360 –> 00:28:31,680
I hope you stick around.

466
00:28:31,680 –> 00:28:36,040
You can subscribe on your favorite podcasting app or again, follow us on social so you don’t

467
00:28:36,040 –> 00:28:37,040
miss any new episodes.

468
00:28:37,040 –> 00:28:38,040
And we’ll see you next week.

469
00:28:38,040 –> 00:28:39,040
And until then, keep it chill and keep it nerdy.

470
00:28:39,040 –> 00:29:06,860
Just keep it chill and keep it nerdy.